Highly doubtful when the organizations start to factor in Klutch and how poisonous they are.

So owners are just going to pass up a top 10 player in the NBA and the strong likelihood of a NBA title with his addition to a contender because of Klutch. Yeah, that's not happening.

Irving will be a major distraction for whatever team has him until he goes full crazy and forces his way out. Lebron and Klutch will systematically destroy the teams long term prospects for literal years after he's gone with abhorrent trades and roster moves they pressure the organization into doing to placate him.

If you're an owner bringing in a 40-year-old LeBron as a secondary player on a contender, your goals are clearly much more short-term oriented anyway. This is inevitably going to happen and I'm interested to see which team/star he latches on with.

Latching on to other stars to win championships is definitely something he's familiar with.

It's something you generally have to be familiar with to win titles in this league over the past two decades, yeah (which again makes the rings argument even more ridiculous). I'm looking forward to when that falls too so we can finally put an end to the charade.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Michael Jordan sends a message to LeBron James: <br><br>“Congratulations to LeBron on this incredible achievement. It’s a testament to his hard work, longevity, and his great skill.”<br><br>(h/t <a href="https://twitter.com/mikejbabcock?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@mikejbabcock</a> ) <a href="https://t.co/NaSGdmdMGQ">pic.twitter.com/NaSGdmdMGQ</a></p>&mdash; NBACentral (@TheNBACentral) <a href="https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status/1623404149923581954?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

No reason to really argue. For the overwhelming majority, that argument ended a long time ago for everybody that isn't under 30 and/or a Lebron stan.

That's why you feel the need to overcompensate, because deep down you know you're in the minority and always will be.

And before you jump your usual "fans don't know any better", this goes for players and coaches (former and current) too along with the media.

A team just gave up decent assets to take on Kyrie Irving.

NBA teams give zero ****s about the future or roster building because it mostly doesn't matter.

Get two stars or GTFO. So much of the league is fungible and overpaid. Star players, old or crazy, move the needle.

Cop out. Giannis Antetokoumpo says hi

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/KingJames?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@KingJames</a>, congratulations.<br> <br>You broke a hallowed record and elevated the game forever. Keep it going and keep the faith. <a href="https://t.co/PwRdF050Qp">pic.twitter.com/PwRdF050Qp</a></p>&mdash; President Biden (@POTUS) <a href="https://twitter.com/POTUS/status/1623405999942934534?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

LeBronists think it's the titles. No it's when you name all the greats Lebrons will and determination doesn't measure up. Like i said before his combination of size skills athleticism and IQ and work ethic are unprecedented. That hasn't translated in the finals and I think it's because he doesn't have the same heart as the true greats. I'm sure he tells himself he does

I agree. LeBron's career surpassed MJ a long time ago. Even without the numbers, we're probably at around 5 years or so now where it's been obvious. His finals win over a 72 win team probably solidified it.

Players and coaches think Brady is the GOAT in football too because he had the benefit of playing on a ridiculous amount of elite teams, it doesn't make them right.

There are always exceptions to the rule (which only happened recently because the Warriors fell off). Kawhi Leonard and the Raptors would be a far better one though.

Meeting Jordan’s expectations are just not possible. It’s likely never gonna be done again. Even the Warriors can’t match the Bulls dynasty and they have 4 in the last 8 seasons.

It’s just too high of a bar to clear. The same can be said about Tom Brady.

I don’t expect Mahomes to ever win 7 Super Bowl’s. 2 is the bar, 3 is puts him right there with Brady and anything more is house money.

LeBron was the best player of his generation. He’s top 10 all time for sure. I’d say top 5 but that’s debateable

Football is a weird sport to determine the GOAT considering there's 22 starters and players don't play both ways.

And I have zero issue with somebody saying Brady is the GOAT. Kind of hard to argue against if we're being honest.

But just like MJ, I feel pretty confident in the eye test when it comes to Mahomes. I realize he might not ever be seen as the GOAT, but it's still very early in his career.

Nah, I think it might have a little more to do with having Larry Hughes being his best #2 for the first 7 years of his career and then Kevin Durant joining a 72 win team with 3 other HOFers for the latter half of his career.

LMAO LMAO LMAO

It's hilarious how you talk about "faulty logic" then turn around and say shit like this.

1. MJ never got the chance because he WAS the 72 win team.

2. That Warriors team was clearly running out of gas in the playoffs. They were lucky to even get out of the WCF. They were nowhere near 100% in the playoffs.

3. Kyrie, not Lebron, made the big shot.

It's actually pretty easy to argue against. Tom Brady is the most overrated athlete in the history of sports. He doesn't even have good career playoff numbers.

He'll certainly never be seen as the GOAT for a certain segment of the sports audience who cling to rings logic like it is the be-all and end-all.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/-zd62MxKXp8" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The greatest play in NBA Finals history.

If you're using rings logic though, it won't put him right there with him at all despite being the clearly better quarterback.

Cool, but the fact remains that Kyrie made the big shit and had a Finals MVP caliber performance throughout the playoffs.

This "beat a 72 win team = GOAT" narrative is "faulty logic" because he far from did it on his own, and the other points I made that you conveniently ignored.

Kyrie was good that series but he was not LeBron. Do you really want me to post LeBron's ridiculous numbers in games 5 through 7 of that series again? I can, but I know you already know them.

Per usual, you are missing the point. It was Lebron's best Finals performance. I never said it wasn't.

But his Robin played like a Batman too. You can't just ignore that and pretend that Lebron did it on his own.

Just like you can't pretend that the Warriors weren't lucky not to lose to the Thunder in the WCF, or that they weren't running out of gas after chasing 72 wins and not even really close to 100%.

I'm just pointing out your "faulty logic". It's pure desperation to create a narrative in favor of Lebron's legacy, because the ghost of MJ is just too difficult to take down otherwise.

We never got to see MJ face as stiff a challenge as the 2016 Warriors at his/the Bulls peak (although you could easily argue MJ was at his peak in the late 80s when he was getting run over by the Pistons every year but I'm willing to give his lesser teams a pass on that), so we'll never quite know what he would have done against it. We know what LeBron accomplished against it though. That 2016 Finals performance is one of the most impressive performances in the history of the game.

Because MJ WAS the 72 win team LMAO

How exactly is that a knock on MJ? LMAO

He was the greatest player of all time on the greatest team of all-time.

More "faulty logic" from your big brain.

Who said it was a knock on MJ? It's just an enormous plus on LeBron. He faced massive adversity and got through it in a way that MJ never had to do in any of those title runs.

And people bring up the Warriors when LeBron has failed in the finals against lesser teams.

The Barkley suns and Payton/Kemp Sonics are some great teams that NEVER got a ring because of MJ

MJ's "switch hands for no reason" layup vs. the Lakers in the 1991 finals was better.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">&quot;Historically, I don&#39;t think the LeBron-Jordan GOAT discussion is going to be a debate. ... At 20 years old, LeBron was better. At 38 years, LeBron is far better. I&#39;ll take LeBron&#39;s prime of 9 Finals in 10 years, w/ 4 titles &amp; 4 Finals MVPs over MJ&#39;s prime.&quot; — <a href="https://twitter.com/getnickwright?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@getnickwright</a> <a href="https://t.co/dqZJkGhedE">pic.twitter.com/dqZJkGhedE</a></p>&mdash; First Things First (@FTFonFS1) <a href="https://twitter.com/FTFonFS1/status/1623424444722036736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Because he was SO dominant.

6 titles, 2 3 peats, with zero game 7s.

Again, these are some seriously mental gymnastics to try to downplay MJ's greatness, regardless of your claim that you aren't trying to knock him.

Top reply is Nick Wright getting owned:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nine more scoring titles.<br>Two more rings<br>Two more Finals MVPs<br>One more regular season MVP<br>One more DPOY award<br>3 more Steals titles<br>Four more NBA All-Defensive First Teams<br><br>There is a Hall of Fame career gap between MJ and LeBron. MJ’s prime was six titles/six FMVPs in 8 years.</p>&mdash; Covfefe (@BobMillerBella1) <a href="https://twitter.com/BobMillerBella1/status/1623427075074916358?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

LMAO

Don't forget the Malone/Stockton Jazz. The Drexler/Porter/Kersey Blazers were pretty good too.

The MJ-Lebron GOAT debate is tiring. I will say this Lebron is #2 All Time and is on the Mount Rushmore of best NBA players for sure. His legacy will always be tainted by that Mavs Finals when he no showed and lost to an inferior opponent. The last 3 games of that series he scored 8 (-6), 17 (-11), and 21 (-24).

It's a damn shame he took two years off. The Bulls would almost certainly have won 8 in a row. These guys said "Eight-peat" for a laugh, but it could've actually happened.

https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/pict...pictureid=2362

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Lakers, Jazz and Timberwolves are in discussions on a three-team deal that would send D’Angelo Russell to the Lakers, Russell Westbrook and draft compensation such as a first-round pick to Utah and Mike Conley Jr. to Minnesota, sources tell me and <a href="https://twitter.com/Tjonesonthenba?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Tjonesonthenba</a>.</p>&mdash; Shams Charania (@ShamsCharania) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1623422681331761154?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He had one bad series 13 years ago, which is literally the only negative thing anybody can say about his career anymore. But of course MJ gets a pass for his poor performance against the Pistons in the latter stages of the 1989 Conference Finals (see https://www.basketball-reference.com...905290CHI.html and https://www.basketball-reference.com...905310DET.html) simply because it came a round earlier. Make it make sense.

Those Pistons teams were among the best ever, and they were allowed to play a style of defense that would spark outrage from the ACLU today. Jordan didn't assemble a superteam to overcome them, either.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Nine more missed field goal attempt titles<br>Two more easy rings<br>One more MVP vs LeBron’s stolen MVPs<br>3 stealing titles against people who couldn’t dribble with both hands + hand check<br>4 more defensive teams in the guard category vs LeBron in the forward category</p>&mdash; LeSage (@ChampionBron) <a href="https://twitter.com/ChampionBron/status/1623430194294886404?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 8, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Ugh, do I like that as a Wolves fan? I'm not sure. Kind of?

Do we need to remind you that Lebron quit against the Celtics because they were owning him so he went to Miami right after? MJ went through the trials and once he got to the Finals never had a Lebron Mavs type series.

The Pistons were good, there's no arguing that. But it's pretty obvious LeBron is being held to a different standard here than MJ if we're picking at one bad playoff series in a twenty year career to somehow bring him down a peg.

No, he just waited until they got old and Scottie Pippen got better instead.

Also, 1990s Bulls on weren't a super team now? With the KD Warriors, they're the best team in NBA history.

Roster

No. Player Pos Ht Wt Birth Date Exp College
1 Daniel Gibson PG 6-2 190 February 27, 1986 us 3 Texas
14 Danny Green SG 6-6 215 June 22, 1987 us R UNC
21 J.J. Hickson PF 6-9 242 September 4, 1988 us 1 NC State
11 Zydrunas Ilgauskas C 7-3 238 June 5, 1975 lt 11
9 Cedric Jackson PG 6-3 191 March 5, 1986 us R St. John's, Cleveland State University
00 Darnell Jackson PF 6-9 253 November 7, 1985 us 1 Kansas
23 LeBron James SF 6-9 250 December 30, 1984 us 6
4 Antawn Jamison PF 6-8 223 June 12, 1976 us 11 UNC
5 Coby Karl SG 6-5 215 March 6, 1983 us 1 Boise State
15 Jamario Moon SF 6-8 205 June 13, 1980 us 2 Meridian Community College
33 Shaquille O'Neal C 7-1 325 March 6, 1972 us 17 LSU
18 Anthony Parker SG 6-6 215 June 19, 1975 us 6 Bradley
44 Leon Powe SF 6-8 240 January 22, 1984 us 3 California
3 Sebastian Telfair PG 6-0 165 June 9, 1985 us 5
17 Anderson Varejão PF 6-11 273 September 28, 1982 br 5
13 Delonte West SG 6-4 180 July 26, 1983 us 5 Saint Joseph's
31 Jawad Williams PG 6-9 218 February 19, 1983 us 1 UNC
2 Mo Williams PG 6-1 198 December 19, 1982 us 6 Alabama

https://www.basketball-reference.com.../CLE/2010.html

Probably. Russell sucks too, just less than Westbrook at this point.

I don't even take that series into account when I state that MJ was better.

The Pistons won a title the season before Chicago started their first three-peat. Scottie Pippen didn't dramatically improve in a year, but MJ did bulk up in order to withstand the Pistons' physical style of play.

The Bulls and Warriors were great teams almost entirely built via the draft, as opposed to established stars agreeing to go to the same team at the same time. Huge difference.

It's funny how Lebron Stans act like trolls (Barry) and simultaneously think they're making good arguments.

But "faulty logic", right?

Like I said this debate is tiring. I am not going to change your mind and you aren't changing mine so let's agree to disagree and move on. Go Chiefs.

It's certainly a lot easier drafting a top 50 player of all time to your team in Scottie Pippen instead of having to carry teams with Mo Williams and Larry Hughes as the #2 guys.

Also, it should probably be pointed out here that basketball HOFers Dennis Rodman and Toni Kukoc didn't come through the draft.

Using MVPs as an argument when LeBron should have won about 10 of them is probably even more faulty logic than the rings stuff, I'd agree.

KCC can't accept this, because he knows that he's in the minority.

I can accept it just fine that people here are using the same faulty rings logic to argue for MJ that they are ironically going to be forced to argue against in a few years with respect to Mahomes.

Ok so take those out:

Nine more scoring titles.
Two more rings
Two more Finals MVPs
One more DPOY award
3 more Steals titles
Four more NBA All-Defensive First Teams

Still a HOF career gap. Sorry. Jordan did more with less.

Quality >>> Quantity

Peak >>> Longevity

Just take the L here KCC and enjoy his scoring achievement LMAO

LeBron was a facilitator, never a scorer. He could have averaged 40+ a game easily if he shot as much as MJ did.

Faulty rings logic. Been over this.

I love Marc Gasol for his career in Memphis and for winning a title for my Raptors, but LeBron should have won the 2013 DPOY over him.

Easier to make those teams as a guard than a forward.

Even if MJ's peak was better than LeBron's (it wasn't), LeBron's body of work over his entire career destroys him.

Many of us have already said/agreed that it's not just about the rings.

It's about the context and the dominance. It's about the eye test.

But pretending the rings don't matter and are irrelevant is laughable.

MJ won three rings without Rodman, and Kukoc is in the HOF for what he did in Europe. Jordan made Pippen what he was.

Take the L over MJ fans desperately grasping at straws using rings logic and debatable peak levels to argue that LeBron's career wasn't better than MJ's? Nah.

"Hey if we completely ignore Jordan's dominance and winning in a team sport Lebron's clearly #1"

The MJ argument over LeBron at this point is akin to saying that Patrick Mahomes is the GOAT in the NFL because his 5 year peak right now is the best of all time. I'm the biggest Mahomes' backer there is, but that's a silly argument. Longevity matters in the GOAT discussion. It matters a lot.

And LeBron's quality in combination with his ridiculous longevity is unmatched by anybody that has ever played the game. It's not even close.

If Mahomes had more championships (among other things) than Brady in that time span, it wouldn't be a silly argument you ****ing reerun.

Again, MJ did more with less.

Nice self own though.

Mahomes has a very good argument for BOAT ("Best of all time") just as MJ does due to his peak level.

But GOAT? That ship has sailed for MJ at this point. LeBron is in year 20, shattering records and posting 30-9-7. It's not even close at this point.

This is cope.

Championships are largely irrelevant to this discussion. If Mahomes played on teams with defenses that were as good as Brady had for his entire career, he'd win a SB just about every year. He's that much better than anybody who has ever played the game. But he doesn't have Brady's luck in that regard and likely never will.

Likewise, if LeBron fell into having the best team in NBA history form around him in Cleveland or anywhere else, he'd have easily won 6+ by now given his longevity. It's what makes the rings discussion such nonsense.

The only people who I see coping today are MJ fans lashing out defensively after LeBron broke one of the most important records in basketball history.

Literally only a Lebron Stan could come up with this horseshit.

When you have to start off by saying this, you've already lost.

If/when Tom Brady ends up with 7 (I'm still not buying that that POS is actually retired BTW) and Mahomes ends up with 3-4 at the end of his, I can't wait to hear this same garbage from you and all the others.

Statistically and talent wise Lebron is the best in history by a gajillion miles.

I’m still taking prime jordan over prime lebron. For the same reasons I’m taking Montana over Marino. Apart from maybe gretzky and tiger woods, Mj had an unmatched killer instinct. I ragged on Lebron for this early in his career, but he did eventually become a stone cold killer. But it still doesn’t match MJs. That’s not a knock on lebron. We are talking GOAT level not just for basketball but for all sports.

What’s unique about Lebron is that he forced owners to give in to his every demand. And from that standpoint I feel like he was too pushy about keeping his friends close. Engineered trades he shouldn’t have and hand picked and held on to too many players longer than he should have. MJ was lucky in many regards to have a coach and (early on) a front office that complemented him. But I also tend to think Lebron would’ve made Phil Jackson’s life a living hell too.

Kareem Played forever and held the career scoring record for many years, but pretty much nobody considers him the GOAT.

LeBron is a more evolved Karl Malone, but he never would've enjoyed the longevity he has in an era when the NBA was less soft.

Totally disagree. Rings mean everything IMVHO. Up to the last couple of SB wins by Brady I and many others still considered Montana the GOAT and it wasn't because of his stats. It was because in the biggest games he showed up and delivered and was undefeated 4-0 in the SB.

If rings mean everything, I assume you'll be prepared to say Tom Brady is the GOAT to the end of your days then? Because as much as I'd love to see it, Patrick Mahomes sure as hell isn't winning seven of those.

mmm, they did consider KAJ the GOAT before the coming of MJ. I still remember several times during games at the end of KAJ's career and the announcers would spend a couple minutes talking about it.

The primary problem with the whole GOAT discussion is that the definition is pretty much up to whoever's making the argument. So we get the Rings POV, the longevity POV, the career stats POV, etc.

Bottom line, LeBron has the hardware and the career accomplishments.

But if I were drafting a team to win a series and I could pick either in their primes, I'm taking MJ every single time, for one simple reason: MJ is an assassin that wants the last shot in the biggest moment at the end of a 7th game, and LeBron is not.

LeBron has dominated in like 3-4 vastly different eras of basketball at this point over his 20 year career, but sure he definitely couldn't have played 10 years earlier when everyone was in much worse physical shape and far less athletic than they are today.

Of course some people did, but he was rarely the best player on his own team, let alone the GOAT.

I will never say that championships are irrelevant.

And again, football and basketball are two different animals. It's really an apples to oranges comparison.

???

You may want to go look at what that guy was doing for the Bucks and for the first five years of his Lakers career.

It is going to be really hard to beat his 7-3 record. So probably I will and that is ok.

We can probably have a better discussion after Sunday, he really needs this win.

3-4 eras in 20 years? Uh, no. There isn't a new era every 5-6 years. He never faced anything like the late 90s Pistons.

Obviously he was great, but the moment Magic became a Laker, he was never the best player on his own team again.

LeBron has dominated in both a slow, physical post up era (2003-2010), a transition era where teams began changing their playing style as 3 PT shooting teams like the Spurs/Warriors emerged (2010-2015), and now a pure three point run-and-gun era (2015-now). He can handle any style of basketball, he's one of the most physically gifted athletes we've ever seen.

Beat me to it. Yeah, it seems like Adolf has no knowledge of KAJ when he was truly dominant in his prime.