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George Liquor 07-29-2024 12:59 PM

I thought Pham hated it here? Or did he just hate Tony?

raybec 4 07-29-2024 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Liquor (Post 17606306)
I thought Pham hated it here? Or did he just hate Tony?

It's ok though because the Cardinals will move Pham to the bullpen in long relief. Just because he's always been an outfielder doesn't mean he can't add value there. They're always finding new and interesting ways to **** up a player.

George Liquor 07-29-2024 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raybec 4 (Post 17606321)
It's ok though because the Cardinals will move Pham to the bullpen in long relief. Just because he's always been an outfielder doesn't mean he can't add value there. They're always finding new and interesting ways to **** up a player.

I also seem to remember PGM having a hate boner for Pham well before Heyward and Noot. I bet he's thrilled. :LOL:

DJ's left nut 07-29-2024 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Liquor (Post 17606306)
I thought Pham hated it here? Or did he just hate Tony?

He hated Matheny.

I've told the story about him making an awesome catch in LF one day after replacing some hack we'd put in the OF (something ridiculous like Matt Adams) and just hate glaring into the dugout for the rest of the inning.

I don't think he had a problem with St. Louis apart from absolutely despising Mike Matheny.

The problem is that we have a clubhouse culture that is so weird and largely indifferent that adding someone like Pham can be seen as a plus. And frankly, it probably is.

In no sane world should a team with the resources and fan support that the Cardinals have need to add a volatile headcase like Pham to get some energy in the room. Yet...here we are.

Because for a decade we've avoided bringing anyone in with a personality so we ended up with shit like Dexter Fowler instead of Bryce Harper. Now the entire team looks like it couldn't give less of **** about being there.

Coinflip odds that Pham throws hands with Arenado at some point. Because god almighty has Arenado put a stamp on the last season+. That dude just doesn't seem to give a shit at all. And at some point that's gonna piss Pham right off.

raybec 4 07-29-2024 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17606352)
He hated Matheny.

I've told the story about him making an awesome catch in LF one day after replacing some hack we'd put in the OF (something ridiculous like Matt Adams) and just hate glaring into the dugout for the rest of the inning.

I don't think he had a problem with St. Louis apart from absolutely despising Mike Matheny.

The problem is that we have a clubhouse culture that is so weird and largely indifferent that adding someone like Pham can be seen as a plus. And frankly, it probably is.

In no sane world should a team with the resources and fan support that the Cardinals have need to add a volatile headcase like Pham to get some energy in the room. Yet...here we are.

Because for a decade we've avoided bringing anyone in with a personality so we ended up with shit like Dexter Fowler instead of Bryce Harper. Now the entire team looks like it couldn't give less of **** about being there.

Coinflip odds that Pham throws hands with Arenado at some point. Because god almighty has Arenado put a stamp on the last season+. That dude just doesn't seem to give a shit at all. And at some point that's gonna piss Pham right off.

I hope you're right. Arenado walks like the big dog while hitting jack shit.

George Liquor 07-29-2024 01:46 PM

Ok that makes more sense.

DJ's left nut 07-29-2024 01:48 PM

So the Cardinals have 3/5 of an almost decent rotation next year at really a nothing pricetag.

Gray, Fedde and Gibson would cost them $45 million combined next season and if those are your 2, 4 and 5 starters, you're really not in bad shape.

Sadly, they've committed $30 million to Mikolas and Matz next season. And will likely pick up Lynn's option at $11 million next season as well. So they'll end up spending $40 million on those 3 buckets of crap who might give them 350 replacement level innings next season (so, y'know, about $35 million set on fire).

And they can't develop pitching worth a shit so Libby, Thompson, McGreevy and Graceffo are essentially organizational non-entities. So this is what we'll be treated to for 2026 and beyond, I'm guessing. Just a lot of dumpster diving for old arms that can absorb innings at a league average rate. Maybe.

DJ's left nut 07-29-2024 01:52 PM

It's really strange to me that they seem to have conceded that they can't develop arms and yet they aren't firing anybody on account of it.

Their entire offseason was an acknowledgement that their farm wasn't going to meaningfully contribute. And their draft full of low ceiling options further confirmed it. They're just looking to throw as many high-ceiling bodies at the problem as they can in the hopes that a couple of them become Kyle Gibson when they grow up.

Someone like Ian Bedell is a legitimate hope for the future for them. Because he might not be hot garbage (even though they know full well he won't actually be good).

This team just has a .500 mindset; the soul of a semi-finalist.

Rams Fan 07-29-2024 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17606375)
So the Cardinals have 3/5 of an almost decent rotation next year at really a nothing pricetag.

Gray, Fedde and Gibson would cost them $45 million combined next season and if those are your 2, 4 and 5 starters, you're really not in bad shape.

Sadly, they've committed $30 million to Mikolas and Matz next season. And will likely pick up Lynn's option at $11 million next season as well. So they'll end up spending $40 million on those 3 buckets of crap who might give them 350 replacement level innings next season (so, y'know, about $35 million set on fire).

And they can't develop pitching worth a shit so Libby, Thompson, McGreevy and Graceffo are essentially organizational non-entities. So this is what we'll be treated to for 2026 and beyond, I'm guessing. Just a lot of dumpster diving for old arms that can absorb innings at a league average rate. Maybe.


The best part is trading for Fedde actually saves them $ next season.

Wanna bet that they'll pocket the $1.5 mil. salary difference?

DJ's left nut 07-29-2024 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 17606427)
The best part is trading for Fedde actually saves them $ next season.

Wanna bet that they'll pocket the $1.5 mil. salary difference?

I just love they they insisted in the off-season they were going to raise payroll then...didn't.

And then when the deadline comes they say they aren't taking on more payroll.

And they wonder why ticket sales are down.

They gave the game away 3 seasons ago when they so openly cooked their books to say they raised payroll. They got Wainwright on a backloaded deal then counted his AAV; did the same with Goldschmidt. They had the Rockies paying almost all of Arenado's salary but counted his full salary in their public proclamations. The following year they replace Molina with Contreras at a lesser payroll figure but again, cite his AAV and ignore the backloading.

Wanna bet they'll count cash spending on Contreras next season when the case outlay gets above his AAV?

I mean they're just so damn dishonest. The open antagonism of the fanbase is just insane to me. This is the shit they'll say OUT LOUD. Can you imagine what they say behind closed doors.

As much as anyone hates this organization and ownership, you just don't hate them enough. These people have zero respect for you as a fan or the fanbase writ large. They're the absolute ****ing worst.

And fellas, it's not gonna get better. DeWitt's dipshit silver spoon kid is even worse. And they can't sell the team now that rates are up and debt service on a $3 billion acquisition will be staggering.

This is what you've got, fellas. For a loooooooong time. Better hope we manage to get generational hitter in the 13th round because lord knows this team doesn't intend to try anytime soon.

Pasta Little Brioni 07-29-2024 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Liquor (Post 17606333)
I also seem to remember PGM having a hate boner for Pham well before Heyward and Noot. I bet he's thrilled. :LOL:

:)

Ah the Ole "Turdy" Pham era

BigRedChief 07-29-2024 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brioni (Post 17606614)
:)

Ah the Ole "Turdy" Pham era

At least he plays with some passion. This clubhouse could use a big jolt of that passion.

Miles 07-29-2024 05:08 PM

Looks like a pretty solid trade in a vacuum. I was guessing they were going to payroll dump Edman separately and then use the salary for some mediocre vet that cost some other asset.

Rams Fan 07-29-2024 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17606516)
I just love they they insisted in the off-season they were going to raise payroll then...didn't.

And then when the deadline comes they say they aren't taking on more payroll.

And they wonder why ticket sales are down.

They gave the game away 3 seasons ago when they so openly cooked their books to say they raised payroll. They got Wainwright on a backloaded deal then counted his AAV; did the same with Goldschmidt. They had the Rockies paying almost all of Arenado's salary but counted his full salary in their public proclamations. The following year they replace Molina with Contreras at a lesser payroll figure but again, cite his AAV and ignore the backloading.

Wanna bet they'll count cash spending on Contreras next season when the case outlay gets above his AAV?

I mean they're just so damn dishonest. The open antagonism of the fanbase is just insane to me. This is the shit they'll say OUT LOUD. Can you imagine what they say behind closed doors.

As much as anyone hates this organization and ownership, you just don't hate them enough. These people have zero respect for you as a fan or the fanbase writ large. They're the absolute ****ing worst.

And fellas, it's not gonna get better. DeWitt's dipshit silver spoon kid is even worse. And they can't sell the team now that rates are up and debt service on a $3 billion acquisition will be staggering.

This is what you've got, fellas. For a loooooooong time. Better hope we manage to get generational hitter in the 13th round because lord knows this team doesn't intend to try anytime soon.

I loathe the DeWitts. Granted, it took me longer than most (probably around 2021 or 2022), but they clearly do not care about winning. They care about being slightly above average and milking nostalgia for a profit. They haven’t gotten rid of Mozeliak because he does what they want usually, with 2023 being an exception.

This team isn’t winning shit unless the DeWitts actually spend on FA or wipe the FO clean (that includes not promoting Bloom).


Quote:

Originally Posted by Miles (Post 17606655)
Looks like a pretty solid trade in a vacuum. I was guessing they were going to payroll dump Edman separately and then use the salary for some mediocre vet that cost some other asset.

In a vacuum, sure.

They gave up Edman when they didn’t have to, though, because they could have gotten both guys in FA in the off-season.

They did the same shit in 2022.

DJ's left nut 07-29-2024 07:35 PM

Fedde won’t be a FA in the off-season. He’s under contract for 7.5 million next year.

And is in the top 5 for AL pitching WAR.

It suggests that the league doesn’t trust his stuff. Or that they don’t think he’s a post-season pitcher.

In truth he probably isn’t. The fastball just isn’t very good. But as a slop tossing righty he can probably throw 180 IP at 25% above league average. That’s probably good for 4-5 WAR most seasons and is a screaming bargain in the regular season.

But it’s just another example of the team not being built for the post-season. It’s a rotation full of junkers. If they make it to October, they’re drawing dead.

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-29-2024 07:41 PM

I'd love to see Pham whip Arenado's ass in the dugout.

Ocotillo 07-29-2024 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17606826)
Fedde won’t be a FA in the off-season. He’s under contract for 7.5 million next year.

And is in the top 5 for AL pitching WAR.

It suggests that the league doesn’t trust his stuff. Or that they don’t think he’s a post-season pitcher.

In truth he probably isn’t. The fastball just isn’t very good. But as a slop tossing righty he can probably throw 180 IP at 25% above league average. That’s probably good for 4-5 WAR most seasons and is a screaming bargain in the regular season.

But it’s just another example of the team not being built for the post-season. It’s a rotation full of junkers. If they make it to October, they’re drawing dead.

The Cardinals got a younger version of Miles Mikolas. Same type of pitcher who reinvented himself in the Far East.

Ocotillo 07-29-2024 08:29 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A familiar voice on the call for the <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Cardinals</a> tonight.<br><br>Welcome back, <a href="https://twitter.com/Buck?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Buck</a>! <a href="https://t.co/BewsfqWU7I">pic.twitter.com/BewsfqWU7I</a></p>&mdash; MLB (@MLB) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1818071380044247274?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 29, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

George Liquor 07-29-2024 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 17606890)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A familiar voice on the call for the <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Cardinals</a> tonight.<br><br>Welcome back, <a href="https://twitter.com/Buck?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Buck</a>! <a href="https://t.co/BewsfqWU7I">pic.twitter.com/BewsfqWU7I</a></p>&mdash; MLB (@MLB) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1818071380044247274?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 29, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Speaking of milking nostalgia.

ChiefsCountry 07-29-2024 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocotillo (Post 17606890)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A familiar voice on the call for the <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Cardinals</a> tonight.<br><br>Welcome back, <a href="https://twitter.com/Buck?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Buck</a>! <a href="https://t.co/BewsfqWU7I">pic.twitter.com/BewsfqWU7I</a></p>&mdash; MLB (@MLB) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLB/status/1818071380044247274?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 29, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Buck's call in Game 6 of we will see you tomorrow night is one of the best of all time.

BigRedChief 07-30-2024 12:12 PM

Could have had Soto for Carlson. Now we will get a lottery type guy, if we are lucky. Typical Mo move.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Cardinals shopping Dylan Carlson: <a href="https://t.co/zryDYPVsUE">pic.twitter.com/zryDYPVsUE</a></p>&mdash; MLB Deadline News (@MLBDeadlineNews) <a href="https://twitter.com/MLBDeadlineNews/status/1818294336896811297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Miles 07-30-2024 01:59 PM

One of the latest rumors I saw was a rental middle relief guy being discussed for Carlson (Dylan Floro of the Nats).

BWillie 07-30-2024 02:06 PM

Tell me about why Dejong sucked so bad at the end of his time with you guys?

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 17608010)
Tell me about why Dejong sucked so bad at the end of his time with you guys?

A) He's just not a very good ballplayer but that doesn't mean he couldn't be average so the rest of it is

B) Everything the Cardinals touch turns to shit.

But really, a lot of it is still A. Dude's on pace for 30+ homers over a full season and has an OPS barely over .700. But/for playing in a launching pad, he wouldn't even be doing that well. Guy has 112 strikeouts this year to 14 walks. That's who he is - he close his eyes and swings hard in the hopes that he manages to make contact.

Stick him in a hitters park and he'll demonstrate a little power. In KC, he's going to be an offensive black hole. I mean a complete trainwreck. But he'll likely be a largely credible defensive player for you so he'll be at/near replacement value.

Honestly, if you don't have someone better in your system, that's a bit of an indictment on your system. Paul DeJong shouldn't be adding to a contender. He's not a very good ballplayer; fringe major leaguer at best.

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miles (Post 17607990)
One of the latest rumors I saw was a rental middle relief guy being discussed for Carlson (Dylan Floro of the Nats).

If the Rays are looking to trade someone, I'd stay away from that guy.

If the Cardinals are looking to move someone, I'd absolutely be interested.

Who's the last outfielder they ditched that DIDN'T get better the instant he left St. Louis?

****ing Richie Palacios has 2 WAR in a part-time role in Tampa Bay this year. Richie Palacios!!

If a team trades for Dylan Carlson and gives him 500 PAs, they'll absolutely get at least a 3 WAR player for their troubles. The Cardinals ruin everything.

Rams Fan 07-30-2024 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 17608010)
Tell me about why Dejong sucked so bad at the end of his time with you guys?

Because he's streaky as **** and doesn't walk.

DeJong is perfectly fine as someone coming off of the bench to PH and then play the field or start maybe 1-2 games a week. His defense is good.

He just shouldn't be playing every day.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17608134)
If the Rays are looking to trade someone, I'd stay away from that guy.

If the Cardinals are looking to move someone, I'd absolutely be interested.

Who's the last outfielder they ditched that DIDN'T get better the instant he left St. Louis?

****ing Richie Palacios has 2 WAR in a part-time role in Tampa Bay this year. Richie Palacios!!

If a team trades for Dylan Carlson and gives him 500 PAs, they'll absolutely get at least a 3 WAR player for their troubles. The Cardinals ruin everything.


Kittredge has been awesome and Palacios was acquired off the trash heap. There's a bunch to bitch about-trading Palacios for Kittredge ain't it.

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 17608167)
Because he's streaky as **** and doesn't walk.

DeJong is perfectly fine as someone coming off of the bench to PH and then play the field or start maybe 1-2 games a week. His defense is good.

He just shouldn't be playing every day.




Kittredge has been awesome and Palacios was acquired off the trash heap. There's a bunch to bitch about-trading Palacios for Kittredge ain't it.

Oh I'm fine trading Palacios. And said so at the time.

I just think it's funny that ANOTHER outfielder left St. Louis and was immediately as good as the guys we have starting for us. And for the first couple months of the season (before Siani hit his weight and Burleson found his form) he was easily better than anyone we had.

He's just demonstrative of the fact that if the Cardinals are shopping a player, you'd be wise to kick the tires. Because far more often than not, that player will perform for you. Especially if he's an outfielder.

Rams Fan 07-30-2024 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17608179)
Oh I'm fine trading Palacios. And said so at the time.

I just think it's funny that ANOTHER outfielder left St. Louis and was immediately as good as the guys we have starting for us. And for the first couple months of the season (before Siani hit his weight and Burleson found his form) he was easily better than anyone we had.

He's just demonstrative of the fact that if the Cardinals are shopping a player, you'd be wise to kick the tires. Because far more often than not, that player will perform for you. Especially if he's an outfielder.

There's no one in the OF who I like long-term playing there as a starter aside from Donovan. I like Nootbar but he gets injured all the time so can't really rely on him and Burleson needs to move to DH/1B long-term. Walker isn't an OFer and Siani, while one of the best defenders in CF in MLB, can't hit worth a damn.

So, they still need at least 2 OFers in the off-season (1 starter and another guy to at least be competent of platooning) and some how improve the rotation next year unless they trot out all of Mikolas, Lynn, and Gibson, which I am sure they will.

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 17608196)
There's no one in the OF who I like long-term playing there as a starter aside from Donovan. I like Nootbar but he gets injured all the time so can't really rely on him and Burleson needs to move to DH/1B long-term. Walker isn't an OFer and Siani, while one of the best defenders in CF in MLB, can't hit worth a damn.

So, they still need at least 2 OFers in the off-season (1 starter and another guy to at least be competent of platooning) and some how improve the rotation next year unless they trot out all of Mikolas, Lynn, and Gibson, which I am sure they will.

There's no cavalry coming, fellas.

The system is about as mediocre as the big league roster. They'll fast-track Wetherholt but even he is someone that makes a good team better; he doesn't make a mediocre team good.

The only thing that could make this team relevant would be a series of hail mary's.

1) Jordan Walker un-****s himself and becomes a genuine middle of the order bat.

2) Nolan Arenado wakes the **** up and starts playing hard again.

3) Tink Hence, Quinn Matthews, Tekoah Roby and/or Conner Hjerpe develop (essentially overnight) into viable top half of the rotation starters. You need 2 of those guys to be post-season capable starting pitchers.

4) I won't even talk about the laughable possibility of Juan Soto being a Cardinal. Or even Corbin Burnes. But maybe Pete Alonso (who's probably not a good fit for the park). Maybe Max Fried as a solid #2 starter? Maybe Bellinger as a starting CFer? A flyer on Walker Buehler that works out?

If literally every one of those things happen, this team can win 90+ games and maybe be ornery in the post-season.

I wouldn't be surprise if not a single one of them comes to fruition.

Marcellus 07-30-2024 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 17608196)
There's no one in the OF who I like long-term playing there as a starter aside from Donovan. I like Nootbar but he gets injured all the time so can't really rely on him and Burleson needs to move to DH/1B long-term. Walker isn't an OFer and Siani, while one of the best defenders in CF in MLB, can't hit worth a damn.

So, they still need at least 2 OFers in the off-season (1 starter and another guy to at least be competent of platooning) and some how improve the rotation next year unless they trot out all of Mikolas, Lynn, and Gibson, which I am sure they will.

Imagine saying this 2 years ago, Mo would have sent someone to your house to kill you in your sleep. Of course they would probably be incompetent and killed the neighbor instead but anyway...….

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 17608225)
Imagine saying this 2 years ago, Mo would have sent someone to your house to kill you in your sleep. Of course they would probably be incompetent and kill the neighbor instead but anyway...….

LOGJAM!!!

Rams Fan 07-30-2024 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17608224)
There's no cavalry coming, fellas.

The system is about as mediocre as the big league roster. They'll fast-track Wetherholt but even he is someone that makes a good team better; he doesn't make a mediocre team good.

The only thing that could make this team relevant would be a series of hail mary's.

1) Jordan Walker un-****s himself and becomes a genuine middle of the order bat.

2) Nolan Arenado wakes the **** up and starts playing hard again.

3) Tink Hence, Quinn Matthews, Tekoah Roby and/or Conner Hjerpe develop (essentially overnight) into viable top half of the rotation starters. You need 2 of those guys to be post-season capable starting pitchers.

4) I won't even talk about the laughable possibility of Juan Soto being a Cardinal. Or even Corbin Burnes. But maybe Pete Alonso (who's probably not a good fit for the park). Maybe Max Fried as a solid #2 starter? Maybe Bellinger as a starting CFer? A flyer on Walker Buehler that works out?

If literally every one of those things happen, this team can win 90+ games and maybe be ornery in the post-season.

I wouldn't be surprise if not a single one of them comes to fruition.

Of those 4 hail marys, the only that I have some optimism with is 3. I have no confidence that they'll be able to fix Walker and I believe Arenado is on a serious decline. Ownership sure as shit isn't spending a damn to fill an existing hole if there's already money allocated towards that position.

There's reasons to like Hence's and Matthews' development arcs. I don't think Roby will turn into anything and Hjerpe might turn into a low end starter or a reliever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 17608225)
Imagine saying this 2 years ago, Mo would have sent someone to your house to kill you in your sleep. Of course they would probably be incompetent and killed the neighbor instead but anyway...….

Yeah, they traded Bader because of the jam...

ChiefsCountry 07-30-2024 04:08 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> have traded Dylan Carlson to the Rays in exchange for reliever Shawn Armstrong, per sources. <a href="https://t.co/JNhJCpgbcK">pic.twitter.com/JNhJCpgbcK</a></p>&mdash; 101 ESPN St. Louis (@101espn) <a href="https://twitter.com/101espn/status/1818407474258469248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Rams Fan 07-30-2024 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 17608249)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/STLCards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#STLCards</a> have traded Dylan Carlson to the Rays in exchange for reliever Shawn Armstrong, per sources. <a href="https://t.co/JNhJCpgbcK">pic.twitter.com/JNhJCpgbcK</a></p>&mdash; 101 ESPN St. Louis (@101espn) <a href="https://twitter.com/101espn/status/1818407474258469248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

And now he’ll become an All Star.

ChiefsCountry 07-30-2024 04:09 PM

Hope this one who sucks the penis gets a Tommy John next start
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">idk how many times we speculated this when Flaherty was in STL, but he’s finally a dodger <a href="https://t.co/gGvqdMTVK4">https://t.co/gGvqdMTVK4</a></p>&mdash; Michelle Smallmon (@msmallmon) <a href="https://twitter.com/msmallmon/status/1818408061796499530?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Rams Fan 07-30-2024 04:14 PM

Giving up Carlson for a reliever who is a FA in 2025 is ****ing dumb as shit, but, his underlying metrics make it seem he hasn't as bad he's performed this year. His FIP is 2 runs lower than his ERA and his BABIP is insanely high.

George Liquor 07-30-2024 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17608226)
LOGJAM!!!

Mo needs a log jammed up his ass.

DJ's left nut 07-30-2024 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rams Fan (Post 17608262)
Giving up Carlson for a reliever who is a FA in 2025 is ****ing dumb as shit, but, his underlying metrics make it seem he hasn't as bad he's performed this year. His FIP is 2 runs lower than his ERA and his BABIP is insanely high.

Credit to the Cardinals for getting rid of a guy who doesn't serve any purpose to the team and somehow getting worse.

Shawn Armstrong is one of the worst relievers in the game.

And Carlson will be at least a 3 WAR player for TB next season. Bank it.

BigRedChief 07-30-2024 04:52 PM

DJ,
Is this guys analyst skills worth a shit?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shawn Armstrong in ‘23 was one of the best relievers in baseball and he’s been pretty bad in ‘24. <br><br>Perhaps, the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> see something they can help get him back his ‘23 form. <a href="https://t.co/qOKeNFScQQ">pic.twitter.com/qOKeNFScQQ</a></p>&mdash; Cardinal Metrics (@CardinalMetrics) <a href="https://twitter.com/CardinalMetrics/status/1818408622860198193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-30-2024 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 17608328)
DJ,
Is this guys analyst skills worth a shit?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shawn Armstrong in ‘23 was one of the best relievers in baseball and he’s been pretty bad in ‘24. <br><br>Perhaps, the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> see something they can help get him back his ‘23 form. <a href="https://t.co/qOKeNFScQQ">pic.twitter.com/qOKeNFScQQ</a></p>&mdash; Cardinal Metrics (@CardinalMetrics) <a href="https://twitter.com/CardinalMetrics/status/1818408622860198193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

You're not going to find an uglier Statcast page than that. Pitchers that side of 30 don't magically regain velocity. Given their volatility, if you need to trade for middle relief, it's a great indicator that you suck at your job.

BigRedChief 07-30-2024 10:00 PM

And Pham hits a grand slam in his first game back.

Marco Polo 07-31-2024 07:00 AM

Big series coming up at Wrigley. I have tickets to the Saturday game but may try to go to another one.

DJ's left nut 07-31-2024 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 17608328)
DJ,
Is this guys analyst skills worth a shit?

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Shawn Armstrong in ‘23 was one of the best relievers in baseball and he’s been pretty bad in ‘24. <br><br>Perhaps, the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/stlcards?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#stlcards</a> see something they can help get him back his ‘23 form. <a href="https://t.co/qOKeNFScQQ">pic.twitter.com/qOKeNFScQQ</a></p>&mdash; Cardinal Metrics (@CardinalMetrics) <a href="https://twitter.com/CardinalMetrics/status/1818408622860198193?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 30, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Nope.

Not a silver lining to be found.

The only surprise is that an organization like the Rays hasn't DFAd him already.

Compare Armstrongs statcast page to Gallegos - Gallegos has been better.

Gio's xERA was a full run better. xBA is 35 points better. Whiff rate is better, barrel and hard hit rates are better. groundball rate is better. Gio's total pitching run value is better.

Gio, under the hood, has been CLEARLY better than Armstrong and we DFA'd him only so we can acquire a shittier version of him.

There's really no justifying this deal. Armstrong is trash and there's nothing to suggest he ever won't be. And if your system doesn't have a half dozen guys that can outperform this scrub...well, it's just another reason Mozeliak should be fired.

It's truly indicative of how bulletproof Mozeliak is. He KNOWS the Rays will get 3 WAR out of Carlson. He knows this is going to be another major L for him. And he just doesn't care - because DeWitt isn't going to hold him accountable for it.

raybec 4 07-31-2024 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17608972)
Nope.

Not a silver lining to be found.

The only surprise is that an organization like the Rays hasn't DFAd him already.

Compare Armstrongs statcast page to Gallegos - Gallegos has been better.

Gio's xERA was a full run better. xBA is 35 points better. Whiff rate is better, barrel and hard hit rates are better. groundball rate is better. Gio's total pitching run value is better.

Gio, under the hood, has been CLEARLY better than Armstrong and we DFA'd him only so we can acquire a shittier version of him.

There's really no justifying this deal. Armstrong is trash and there's nothing to suggest he ever won't be. And if your system doesn't have a half dozen guys that can outperform this scrub...well, it's just another reason Mozeliak should be fired.

It's truly indicative of how bulletproof Mozeliak is. He KNOWS the Rays will get 3 WAR out of Carlson. He knows this is going to be another major L for him. And he just doesn't care - because DeWitt isn't going to hold him accountable for it.

I think this FO has done everything in it's power to prove that they should be trusted. I for one am totally on board with this trade because we have a great track record of fixing and devlopiing pitchers plus we have way too many outfielders anyway.

Marcellus 07-31-2024 02:15 PM

Pham so far has 6 RBIs in his first 2 games back with Stl. Small but fun sample size.

DJ's left nut 07-31-2024 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 17609673)
Pham so far has 6 RBIs in his first 2 games back with Stl. Small but fun sample size.

If Pham injects some energy into this club do you think it will in any way change their approach to the locker room?

For literally a decade this team has looked to get rid of anyone that brought fire and passion to the roster. "Not a Cardinal Way player". It's why they didn't have any interest in Harper.

You NEED a couple guys like this. It can't even be someone like Arenado - who is (was) a grinder and lunchpail guy. Because there still has to be a true fiery personality in there to hold those quieter guys accountable.

For years it was LaRussa. He was that fire. And for a bit it was Shildt. But even during the LaRussa years you had some real wild cards on the roster; someone to complement the quiet leadership of your Pujols and Rolen types. Eric Davis, Steve Klein - those sort of guys. Dudes who will absolutely 'Mother****' you if you're jaking it.

raybec 4 07-31-2024 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17609726)
If Pham injects some energy into this club do you think it will in any way change their approach to the locker room?

For literally a decade this team has looked to get rid of anyone that brought fire and passion to the roster. "Not a Cardinal Way player". It's why they didn't have any interest in Harper.

You NEED a couple guys like this. It can't even be someone like Arenado - who is (was) a grinder and lunchpail guy. Because there still has to be a true fiery personality in there to hold those quieter guys accountable.

For years it was LaRussa. He was that fire. And for a bit it was Shildt. But even during the LaRussa years you had some real wild cards on the roster; someone to complement the quiet leadership of your Pujols and Rolen types. Eric Davis, Steve Klein - those sort of guys. Dudes who will absolutely 'Mother****' you if you're jaking it.

I read a story once about Steve Klein and Mike Matheney getting into a fisticuffs because Klein kept shaking Mike off. No idea where I read it or if it's true.

What's concerning about today is McGreevy goes 7 innings of 1 run ball. They're going to try to shoehorn his ass in as the future ace even though it was the ****ing Rangers.

Also...why the **** to they keep trotting Brandon ****ing Crawford out there in any capacity?

'Hamas' Jenkins 07-31-2024 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raybec 4 (Post 17609827)
I read a story once about Steve Klein and Mike Matheney getting into a fisticuffs because Klein kept shaking Mike off. No idea where I read it or if it's true.

What's concerning about today is McGreevy goes 7 innings of 1 run ball. They're going to try to shoehorn his ass in as the future ace even though it was the ****ing Rangers.

Also...why the **** to they keep trotting Brandon ****ing Crawford out there in any capacity?

On my 21st birthday I was in Pittsburgh and caught a Cardinals-Pirates game. Kline was warming up in the OF with the other pitchers and moseyed over near the right field line, where we were sitting nd a groundskeeper was working. As the guy was on his hands and knees, Kline quasi mounts him and starts pantomiming piledriving the guy. Then he came over, chatted us up, and signed our hats.

Dude was the ****ing GOAT.

DJ's left nut 07-31-2024 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17610042)
On my 21st birthday I was in Pittsburgh and caught a Cardinals-Pirates game. Kline was warming up in the OF with the other pitchers and moseyed over near the right field line, where we were sitting nd a groundskeeper was working. As the guy was on his hands and knees, Kline quasi mounts him and starts pantomiming piledriving the guy. Then he came over, chatted us up, and signed our hats.

Dude was the ****ing GOAT.

I was at training camp one year and we spent a full week out there. We had our Service Dog with us (we fostered one for about 14 months; took him places and trained him up before he was 'polished' and sent to a permanent home) so we stood out a bit.

LaRussa being an animal lover would come over and chat a little here and there. I really thought we were gonna get to go into the clubhouse -- he told us to come out at like 7a one morning but when we got there they'd gotten delayed by something so we couldn't go in.

In either event, we chatted with Kline a bit and then went up to Orlando (I think) for a game and sat next to their 'bullpen' -- just some folding chairs in foul territory. He recognized us and we talked for a bit but during the game, that dude was funny as shit and a complete dawg. I mean he was hitting on EVERYONE. Really personable though; great guy.

In all the years we went out there, he and Kyle Lohse were the two that really stood out as just genuinely great and funny guys. The year that Wainwright and Carpenter kept each other from winning the CY (they split the vote) I said something to them about it. Wainwright says "Yeah, we both could've won it..." and Lohse just deadpans to him "man, I'm gonna tell the rest of the guys you think they suck..."

Or when he got all riled up at the fans after he followed Waino into BP. Waino hits a couple bombs and otherwise mis-hits everything. Lohse drills everything on a line up the box. Fans went crazy clapping for Wainwright's dingers and its quiet when Lohse is done. He just turns and goes "Damn man, I was 5 for 5! What the ****!?!?"

You want some personality on the squad, fellas. But you've gotta have a leader that can actually handle them. Going all the way back to Matheny, we just haven't. But it was no accident that fairly boisterous guys like Bader and O'Neill played their asses off for Shildt.

BigRedChief 07-31-2024 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 17609673)
Pham so far has 6 RBIs in his first 2 games back with Stl. Small but fun sample size.

sponsored by….
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Tommy Pham: &quot;The fans gave me a lot of energy. ... Got a little butterflies inside from that, man. ... The birds on the bat across the chest means a lot, man. It&#39;s a privilege to wear this uniform.&quot;<br><br>Brought to you by your Mid-America Chevy Dealers. <a href="https://t.co/4ESrl0LHa0">https://t.co/4ESrl0LHa0</a> <a href="https://t.co/yelesYiyd8">pic.twitter.com/yelesYiyd8</a></p>&mdash; Bally Sports Midwest (@BallySportsMW) <a href="https://twitter.com/BallySportsMW/status/1818479322002497639?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 31, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

BigRedChief 08-01-2024 09:39 PM

Of course


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Per <a href="https://twitter.com/ESPNStatsInfo?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@ESPNStatsInfo</a>: The Cubs had lost 53 straight games when trailing by multiple runs in the 9th inning or later, including 40 this season but score 3 off all-star closer Ryan Helsley to beat the Cards, 5-4.</p>&mdash; Jesse Rogers (@JesseRogersESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/JesseRogersESPN/status/1819203928124268858?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 2, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

'Hamas' Jenkins 08-01-2024 09:50 PM

They should have traded his ass.

George Liquor 08-01-2024 09:51 PM

That was an absolutely awful loss... I expect them to lose like that in the WC game (if they make it)

BigRedChief 08-01-2024 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17612039)
They should have traded his ass.

Mo says we are in the race for the playoffs and on track for a World Series. Trading non-fringe players isn't necessary. Nothing to see here.


https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/6...Bob_medium.jpg

Marco Polo 08-02-2024 10:34 AM

I went to the game last night- what a brutal way to lose.

George Liquor 08-02-2024 01:02 PM

lol this dude sucks

George Liquor 08-02-2024 02:50 PM

Oli you reerun

raybec 4 08-05-2024 05:52 AM

What a ****ing clown show.

Marco Polo 08-05-2024 08:14 AM

I went to two of the games this weekend- crazy how ugly this team plays. Offense is absolutely atrocious.

Pasta Little Brioni 08-05-2024 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marco Polo (Post 17616343)
I went to two of the games this weekend- crazy how ugly this team plays. Offense is absolutely atrocious.

Whyyyy

George Liquor 08-07-2024 06:06 PM

These guys really gave Carlson a standing O.

No wonder Dewallet fleeces them

ChiefsCountry 08-12-2024 12:10 PM

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Roster Move: OF Jordan Walker has been recalled from Memphis (AAA).<br><br>INF Matt Carpenter has been placed on the 10-day IL retroactive to August 9 (lower back strain). <a href="https://t.co/1P1EmY8bmJ">pic.twitter.com/1P1EmY8bmJ</a></p>&mdash; St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals/status/1823049682328670500?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 12, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Marcellus 08-12-2024 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefsCountry (Post 17627575)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Roster Move: OF Jordan Walker has been recalled from Memphis (AAA).<br><br>INF Matt Carpenter has been placed on the 10-day IL retroactive to August 9 (lower back strain). <a href="https://t.co/1P1EmY8bmJ">pic.twitter.com/1P1EmY8bmJ</a></p>&mdash; St. Louis Cardinals (@Cardinals) <a href="https://twitter.com/Cardinals/status/1823049682328670500?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 12, 2024</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

May as well.

BigRedChief 08-12-2024 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcellus (Post 17627599)
May as well.

Did he learn to get some lift in his swing instead of driving a baseball 106 mph into the dirt?

DJ's left nut 08-12-2024 01:50 PM

Credit to the Cardinals. They made him earn his way back.

And credit to Walker - with a .940 OPS and 5 homers over the last month, he’s earned a look.

He’s still gonna struggle with the outside stuff, IMO. He’s not learned to drive through that ball and hammer it into the RC field gap. But right now if you pitch him inside he can absolutely turn on it and hit the shit out of it.

Progress is progress. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good. He’s shown some improvement in key areas and now they can let him have the last 6-8 weeks to show it wasn’t an accident.

'Hamas' Jenkins 08-12-2024 02:57 PM

He looked more open in his stance which helps with the inside pitch as DJ said, but I don't see how he doesn't end up eating a steady diet of breaking and offspeed pitches away.

BigRedChief 08-12-2024 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17627859)
He looked more open in his stance which helps with the inside pitch as DJ said, but I don't see how he doesn't end up eating a steady diet of breaking and off-speed pitches away.

Until he lays off the stuff out of the zone, he'll definitely be getting a steady diet of those pitches.

DJ's left nut 08-12-2024 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17627859)
He looked more open in his stance which helps with the inside pitch as DJ said, but I don't see how he doesn't end up eating a steady diet of breaking and offspeed pitches away.

Interestingly, opening his stance actually closed his setup.

He used to be a little more closed but then would open as he came to and started his swing. By opening his stance, he actually steps in a little as he's coming to his ready position. It's helping him keep his shoulders in a little longer and helping him drive through that inside pitch better instead of opening up and swinging over top of it.

It's a much better base; something that can actually help him get to that outside pitch a little better. But his that's gonna be a timing problem for him to really stay through that pitch and drive it. He still doesn't keep his top side in long enough.

They took a fairly unconventional approach to it but it's strangely exactly what I had to do as a kid when I was flying open. I'd open MORE in an attempt to make my first move more exaggerated towards the pitcher and close things up better.

Credit to somebody for helping him out a bit. It was clear what the problem was and at least someone seems to have found the beginnings of a solution to it.

He honestly has as much raw offensive talent as anyone in the game. I genuinely believe that. The hands are great, the raw power is incredible, the athleticism is there, the eye is no worse than average. Everything is there for him to be a 3-5 hitter and a genuine run producer. He just needs to unlock that talent.

Maybe this is a first step.

BigRedChief 08-12-2024 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 17628006)
He honestly has as much raw offensive talent as anyone in the game. I genuinely believe that. The hands are great, the raw power is incredible, the athleticism is there, the eye is no worse than average. Everything is there for him to be a 3-5 hitter and a genuine run producer. He just needs to unlock that talent.

Maybe this is a first step.

So if he unlocked something, how many more years of control do we have? Does this year count?

DJ's left nut 08-12-2024 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRedChief (Post 17628016)
So if he unlocked something, how many more years of control do we have? Does this year count?

Only the time he'll spend on the active roster.

Combine it with last year's time on the roster and he'll likely get over a full season of time accrued. So the Cardinals would have 5 left after this year.

He was maybe 4-5 games away from a full season when he was sent down. So unless he gets shipped out again in a day or two, he's going to get that 172 days he needs for the full season.

That said, it won't be by a ton. So if they have to send his ass down for a couple months AGAIN next season, they'll probably stay under 2 full years of service time through next year. And at that point they'd enter the 2026 season with 4 years of team control....on a guy who's probably a bust at that point.

If he doesn't show something fairly substantial down the stretch, I'm guessing they dump him for another old pitcher with a couple years of team control. They'll throw their hands up at that point.

Not being able to do anything vs. Andrew Abbott today is a bit of an inauspicious start...

'Hamas' Jenkins 08-13-2024 07:58 PM

Another one run offensive output in a band box. Fedde got his teeth kicked in again. They have the 7th worst run differential in baseball. There isn't a single person in the organization who should be employed next year.

DJ's left nut 08-13-2024 08:58 PM

Meanwhile Shildts boys traded Soto, lost Snell and have won something like 16 of 19.

It’s impossible to overstate what a catastrophe that decision was. Giving John Mozeliak plenary control of the organization is just unforgivable.

Pasta Little Brioni 08-14-2024 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17630055)
Another one run offensive output in a band box. Fedde got his teeth kicked in again. They have the 7th worst run differential in baseball. There isn't a single person in the organization who should be employed next year.

5.63 ERA since joining...which is exactly in line of his seasons in Washington in 21 and 22. Mo is a complete ****ing disaster

Pasta Little Brioni 08-14-2024 06:54 AM

Oh and Noot is 2 for his last 20 with a pathetic .228 average on the season. Don't argue pasta ROFL

Marcellus 08-14-2024 06:16 PM

This whole team is complete garbage.

Marco Polo 08-14-2024 07:34 PM

This is depressing to watch.

Megatron96 08-15-2024 07:45 PM

Any idea how likely it is that Marlon gets canned? And who could replace him? Maddon? Francona? Beltran? Shrek?

'Hamas' Jenkins 08-15-2024 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17632504)
Any idea how likely it is that Marlon gets canned? And who could replace him? Maddon? Francona? Beltran? Shrek?

I don't think it really matters given how poorly the organization is run. If you can't develop and scout your players, you're dead in the water.

Megatron96 08-16-2024 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Hamas' Jenkins (Post 17632532)
I don't think it really matters given how poorly the organization is run. If you can't develop and scout your players, you're dead in the water.


So, Shrek it is then.


On a slightly more serious note, it's sad to see how far STL has fallen in terms of being able to scout/develop talent. Used to be a strength.

BigRedChief 08-16-2024 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 17633220)
So, Shrek it is then.


On a slightly more serious note, it's sad to see how far STL has fallen in terms of being able to scout/develop talent. Used to be a strength.

When your owner cares more about money than winning he hires people that will make him the most money. That GM hire doesn't need to be a good evaluator of players, how to develop players none of that baseball stuff.

Then you have the GM who will only hire yes men. You have a different opinion better keep it to yourself or you'll be fired even if you are the manager of the year.


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