It's like it's almost part of baseball.

That was epic.

And it's almost like the Jays instigated that situation.

Please.

Give me examples of where I have been wrong about the Royals this year. Hint, you won't find many.

On the contrary, guy, you're the one who conceded the division for the Cardinals after losing a July series to the Pirates ... you know ... with a 2.5 game lead ... set your O/U wins at 92 at the same time (brilliant!) ... and bet me Volquez would be terrible this year, because, you know, Fangraphs said so.

So you're batting 1.000, let me tell ya!

Also, apparently there's a long running feud between the Jays and Orioles, especially between Bautista and Darren O'Day. They have a few episodes over the last couple years. They apparently had a pretty nasty series last Sept.

But don't worry, the Royals are the only team evil enough to do such a horrible thing. No other pitching staff throws at people. If only KC could learn to be as benevolent as the rest of baseball.
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I didn't reference Ventura, though oddly I think he's now become the goat that this stuff gets hung on. Volquez has had multiple issues as well now. You speak to Samardzija being a catalyst in the White Sox incident - accurately, I'll add - but isn't that EXACTLY what Volquez was doing on Sunday? He and Cain were both out there trying to get their money's worth with Volquez definitely trying to push around and through guys to get at (I believe) Donaldson. I also believe it was Volquez that threw a haymaker in that Sox skirmish?

I suppose. Like I said, you can quibble with my terminology and that's fair. If you think I was overstating it so be it. To me his tendency to make an issue of most HBPs constitutes a tantrum but I can see your point here. No, he's not gone off half-cocked but when you're a team leader that is constantly taking umbrage with a HBP, that's going to filter down through the team.

Yeah, we're not going to reach a consensus here. I'm not gonna bite on this 'doesn't watch the games' nonsense from the others because I do. Not all of them mind you, but many (my directv gets FSKC) and I've seen Cain get hit several times; he is the most vocal of anybody I've seen this year when he gets hit.

Not a White Sox thread. But as for Sale, what he did was WHOLLY unacceptable. If I were talking with White Sox fans, I'd have spoken to it. I couldn't believe he did that and honestly MLB should've dropped the hammer harder than it did there. That said, it was post-skirmish, no? It's a bit of an ancillary point in an attempt to spread blame after the fact.

I'm on a Royals thread directly addressing Royals fans who are doing the opposite - making Sunday's events all about Toronto. I think I've remained pretty civil with you on account of you doing the same. I've even noted that I get why the Royals were flummoxed by the Jays reaction. But it's the old 'brick is not a wall' axiom that I'm speaking to here. Any number of instances which are, at least to some degree, attributable to the Royals attitude is going to flow to a logical conclusion that the Royals have some attitude issues that other teams simply do not. Any instance in a vacuum isn't worth discussion (well, the Herrera thing is, but whatever), but there are now a lot of issues that have popped up.

It is and then it isn't. Remember, many MANY umpires refuse to exercise judgment in those cases - if there have been warnings issued, the ump isn't going to get into intent and he's going to toss the guy. The MLB rulebook even says that umpires should grant little to no latitude at all after warnings have been issued and pitches are coming in around the head. That is a baseball culture problem to some degree - there needs to be uniformity. If as a player you expect that the next guy to get hit earns the pitcher the thumb...then it doesn't happen, you're going to be pissed. That expectation given the fact that many umpires DO treat it that way isn't an unfair one. Personally I trend towards tossing the guy. I know it's a pain that could impact the pitcher in that he's afraid to pitch inside. I know it's draconian and perhaps over the top, but it also puts a stop to this kind of thing.

As to stealing signs, ironically I had this exact conversation with a friend of mine awhile ago and I've just never bought it. It's especially comical when it gets to 'well they steal signs at home' as often applied to the Jays, as though Toronto has some guy with a flashlight under the batters eye. Yup - 400 feet away there's a guy flashing a light to give away pitch type/location. Even under the 'conventional' sign stealing gripe where the guy at 2b does it, I've not bought it. Catchers set up late enough these days that stealing signs is damn near impossible when you think about the mechanics involved. When the runner is on 2b, pitchers/catchers scramble their signs to the point that I don't think it's realistic to say that baserunners are stealing pitch type. As to location, the catcher generally sets up location right as the windup is starting. As a better you'd have to have some small, nearly imperceptible signal from a baserunner and in that period of time that the pitcher is winding up you'd have to take your eye off the pitcher, look at the baserunner and then pick the ball back up mid-delivery to get a read on spin, etc... With a runner on 2b presumably the pitcher is in the stretch so things are sped up even more.

Regardless of team, I've never thought sign stealing had merit. Do guys spend all day looking for a 'tell' on the pitcher and then divulge it? Sure they do. But man, just the timelines and mechanics involved in straight up sign stealing seem pretty farfetched. If/when it does happen, the pitching team has to almost dare the opponent not to do it. If you won't mix up your signs or have your catcher set up late, you don't get to go drilling guys. To me that's never been an acceptable reason for hitting someone. It's too vague a charge, it's damn near impossible to prove and to whatever extent it does happen its largely self-inflicted.

Grichuk is a fun one to watch the arguments about since he is not a sabermetric friendly player.

...not only that, but when I was one of the only people on this board propping Ned for batting Moose 2nd ... saying that it could be the confidence he needed to finally get off to a good start ... Hamas was right there telling everyone how STUPID it was and blah blah blah ... because, you know, he reads fangraphs

...as Moose was hitting for .330 through May

but again ... tell me how reading fangraphs is a better way of formulating opinion on a team or players than actually watching 90% of the games?

I bet I have watched 5 X more Royals games than Hamas or DJ ... and that's because I simply have nothing better to do.

Yet they know more about the Royals than I do. Classic.

In fairness, it's the Braves.

O'Day struck out Bautista once and barked at him. Bautista hit a HR off him the next time they faced and barked right back. Since then, O'Day has thrown at him multiple times.

The Royals are hardly evil. But do they have a significant history of instigating situations like this (and did they instigate Sunday's incident)? Absolutely.

I'm not kidding you ... 'Hamas' and DJ literally think they could manage the Cardinals better than Matheny. No joke.

67-38

.640 win percentage

...and they do it all DESPITE Matheny

Most ridiculous, stupid fan base in any sport. Remember, they ALL hated LaRussa, too.

All of them.

So yeah, when are you going to own up to the fact that you were talking out your ass with this gem?

Both of the bolded are not accurate.

Matheny isn't good, though. Watching him manage games almost reminds me of Ned Yost before he was handed a virtually infallible bullpen.

Basically Boston Midwest.