Originally Posted by Luzap

This is a very complex issue that I happen to have experience with on several levels. That doesn't mean my opinions are gauranteed to be right, but at least I know what questions to ask ROFL

Examples of complexities. I could write an essay on each of these, but I'll spare you...

There is a difference between crossing the border illegally and over-staying your visa. People that don't return have been through background checks, tend to be law abiding, and in my experience, are willing to work very hard. We always think of Mexico, but a vast percentage of illegals are from Central and South America and don't want to go back to what is literally a dangerous situation. They had to escape but couldn't get an immigration visa. They settled for a tourist visa instead (BTW, if you think our gov't doesn't know this is happening, think again. The number of Tourist Visas goes up dramatically to countries in turmoil).

There is a vast underground for illegal aliens. An underground economy is never good ~ no economics professor would ever argue that. The 'honest' illegals have no choice but to take part in it. Unfortunately, it also supports the 'bad' illegal elements. Being forced into this underground economy keeps aliens from assimilating into our society (what Roosevelt was quoted on).

Our current immigration laws are a mess and contribute to the problem. Don't get me started.

When I opened a fast food restaurant in OKC, I couldn't get people to even apply for the jobs ~ at any wage. Employers on this board are all telling you the same thing, Americans just don't want certain types of jobs. Several years ago when a new mall opened in Olathe, the stores couldn't find employees. Look it up, it made the newspaper. I live in Dallas and can promise you that the majority of the restaurants, construction companies, landscapers, grocery stores, Wal-Marts, etc. would not be able to stay open if you took away the illegals tomorrow. Who's going to move accross the country to work at McDonalds?

For non-salaried jobs, undocumented workers work harder, are more dependable, and more loyal. Just my experience.

'Cracking Down' on illegals just makes the underground culture stronger. Without getting into a long explanation, look at the Drug War ~ we've really hurt the drug cartels, haven't we?

Originally Posted by Luzap

You can't stop them from comming, so let's do background checks and keep the criminals out.

Originally Posted by Vlad Logicslav

Legalize it so that the only requirements are fingerprinting, application for SS# and pay for an entry paperwork processing fee.

Originally Posted by Donger

Actually, I DO lump all illegals into one category. If they are willing to break the law in order to the get into the country, why would you expect anything less once they are in? I could care less as to their motivation.

These people ALL have a legal means to get in; they are CHOOSING not to.

To be blunt and as a legal immigrant, fuck them. If I had my way, they'd be against the wall tomorrow.

Probably a good thing I can never be President of the United States. I have absolutely ZERO sympathy for them. They are criminals, plain and simple.

Originally Posted by stevieray

Could an issue like this ever escalate into a Civil War?

Originally Posted by Donger

No. By definition, a civil war is a war fought between citizens of the same country.

Originally Posted by stevieray

good point...but could it escalate into hostlie actions? or armed confrontations?

Originally Posted by patteeu

I don't assume that people who break the speed limit laws when they drive will ignore all laws so I don't see a reason why I should assume everyone who breaks an immigration law is going to be breaking laws left and right once they get here. Especially if they aren't put into a position where they have to live on the blackmarket for fear of being deported.

Originally Posted by patteeu

There were a lot of boat people who left Vietnam during the 70's. Many of them ended up being legally allowed into the US, but they left Vietnam without VISAs or confirmed refugee status. The group that ended up in the US is, as a whole, a very productive group of immigrants. There wasn't any magical change that took place in their moral makeup when the US decided to accept them as refugees instead of leaving them to illegally immigrate to whatever shore they could wash up on.

Originally Posted by patteeu

I'm against importing Mexican language and culture. I'm against putting illegals ahead of legals. But given the enormity of the problem, I don't see why we can't put illegals who demonstrate a desire to assimilate and keep their noses clean ahead of foreigners who may some day decide to immigrate legally. And as I said earlier, the most important thing is to secure the border (possibly in conjunction with expanded legal immigration and efforts to decrease the draw for illegals) to dry up the stream of new illegals.

Originally Posted by Donger

I don't equate breaking the speed limit to breaking immigration laws, even if our government does. It should be a felony, or not a crime at all.

Originally Posted by Donger

Last time I checked, we haven't invaded Mexico in some time. And, those Vietnamese decided and made a concerted effort to assimilate. I know; my brother is married to one. And, I don't hear a "For Vietnamese, press three" option when I call my bank.

Originally Posted by Donger

I'm not against importing any culture. Hell, our 'culture' is by definition multi-cultural. But, I draw the line at being illegal. Again, they had a choice: they choose to break the law. fuck them.

Originally Posted by patteeu

I'm not sure what's magical about making illegal immigration a "felony" other than that I believe it would bar illegals from becoming legal. I think there are plenty of illegals here who are able to avoid breaking laws (other than the violations that are part of trying to remain below the radar, e.g. working for cash). I don't see any reason to treat them all like they are hardcore criminals. The real problem isn't the illegals who are already here, it's the system that makes it too easy for them to come and get by.

Originally Posted by patteeu

That's beside the point. I was criticizing your broadbrush statement that suggests that illegals, by virtue of the fact that they are willing to immigrate illegally, are likely to continue to be lawbreakers. Vietnamese boat refugees were willing to immigrate illegally, but they've proven that they can be a very productive group that assimilates just fine.

Originally Posted by patteeu

Well, you don't like hearing your bank's phone options which is more along the lines I was talking about. In particular, I don't think our government should be conducting business in a foreign language and our public schools should be teaching classes in English. I'm fine with Mexican culture in the form of tex mex restaurants and the occasional pinata at a kid's birthday party.

I'm OK with taking a tough stance with illegals who have no interest in becoming Americans (and certainly with those who are criminals in the traditional sense of the word), but what benefit is there for us to be tough with the illegals who would be willing to assimilate? The only reason it turned out bad when Reagan offered amnesty was because no one ever got around to securing the border or fixing the enforcement issues.

Originally Posted by Donger

Like I said, we haven't invaded Mexico in some time. The Vietnamese were tacitly invited. And, see above. When the Vietnamese illegals raise the same kind if ruckus as the Mexicans, I'll get worried.