What a surprise, Herm Edwards takes over and Allen's numbers drop. I guess Herm can ruin anything if he tries.

Small school prospect puts up 9 sacks his rookie year and 11 the next year on a DL that is complete shit - yes, he was a force from the start. He is what you call a cornerstone.

Oh, and IF Hali gets 11 this year, will he be a 'force'?

Just want to set the ground rules..... because I think 10 is coming....11 is possible.

And, 'if' he is a force, does that mean a cornerstone?

Well, I didn't think I would get much of an objective point of view here, don't know why I tried.

Thanks for the debate.

To be clear..... I think Allen is a franchise player in the NFL. He is better than Hali beyond question. I just think that his production was clearly benefited by adding talent around him and game situations. Things that Hali does not have the benefit of at this time.

Additionally, Allen was a one dimensional player early and it wasn't until 2007 that he really put everything together and became dominant.

That isn't a slight against him, just an acknowlegement of what it takes to be a great player, and how guys develop over time.

Tell, me, did that piece of shit Portis wave his championship belt after the game this time?

I will never forget the kick in the gut that game in Denver gave me.

Hali does not have the benefit of talent around him? Allen had Sims on the line his first two years. Hali has two top 5 picks on the DL who don't appear to be the busts that Sims is/was.

Allen had an OFFENSE.

I know that this is complex stuff for you... but when you have an explosive offense, the other team tends to have to pass more.

It is the entire team, not just the defensive line.

Allen's 2nd year - KC opponents threw the ball 559 times. That's 35 per game average
This year opponents have thrown 203 times, or 34 per game on average. That one additional attempt per game created a huge advantage for Allen.

From what I have read in this thread, Allen got 11 sacks that year. Tamba is on track to at least come close to that and I think everyone will agree that Allen is the better talent. But that shows that Tamba is not a bust and is playing solidly this year in a new position.

Not that I care, it is fun watching you guys go back and forth. But you have to keep your arguments clean.

I never opined on Hali. I was only arguing against Sensible's claim that Allen developed only when Boone and Hali came aboard.

To go back. I liked the Hali draft pick. I think a team can win a championship with him at LDE as long as you have a strong RDE. I think he's a solid 43 lineman.

I think he's exceeding the expectations of 99% of this board (myself included) with his play at OLB. All that being said, I still think he's more of a complimentary player than a "cornerstone". Even if he puts up 9 sacks this year, I still don't view him as the difference maker that Allen is/was. I think offenses game plan around Allen. I don't think they do it for Hali, and I'm fairly certain Pioli is going to try to draft that cornerstone pass rusher within the first two rounds next year.

This on all accounts.

I see Hali as a complimentary player. A decent player who can possibly end up with 8 sacks tis year.

I think he will be nothing more then a decent player. I believe he is not viewed as a relentless passrusher, and thats what seperates him from greatness. He doesn't get in the backfield enough or apply enough pressure to force the QB's into bad throws. I also don't see him bat down balls at the LOS, and he has very little moves as a passrusher. His effort is there no question, but, when I see him get stood up by RB's and TE's, I don't see that as a good sign.

Even though I think he is ok. An okay player could get upgraded or replaced. An okay player isn't going to make a difference. This team still needs a passrusher no if's and's or but's about it.

HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

I wonder if some people actually watch the games or just build opinions off of others.

Jared Allen had 8 sacks in his rookie year, one that he only got on the field around the halfway point.

The next year he had 10 or 11, playing next to Sims and Dalton.

Hali came in the next year and Jareds sack total dropped to like 7, so no his totals didnt go up because he was across from the great Hali. ROFL

A "Cornerstone" DEMANDS a double team to be slowed down and cannot be shut out of a game unless trippled. Hali can be single blocked most the game.


I like his progression so far, but lets not go full reerun.

Hali demands a TE or RB.

So there.

:D

Dude, if Hali gets 11 sacks Ill cut off my arms with a pumpkin carver