Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11551513)

I'm not going to pretend to know much about Mike Matheny and his managing. I assume it would drive me about as crazy as Ned Yost and Ned Yost's bullpen management.

I will, however, point out that a manager, in the regular season, is basically +-2 wins for his team, tops.

The Cardinals were the same fan base that hated Tony LaRussa.

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11551513)

I'm not going to pretend to know much about Mike Matheny and his managing. I assume it would drive me about as crazy as Ned Yost and Ned Yost's bullpen management.

I will, however, point out that a manager, in the regular season, is basically +-2 wins for his team, tops.

The Cardinals were the same fan base that hated Tony LaRussa.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11551471)

First - short of Hamas, I'm almost certainly the most critical Cardinal fan on this board and I'm gonna guess anybody in the Cardinals thread would echo that. Fan? Yes. Homer? Get the **** outta here with that.

Second - as a fan of the team, I can actually speak intelligently to the background of some of the parties involved here - you cannot. If nothing else, Duncan's corroboration supports that point and he does have insider contacts that I do not. It provides a very feasible alternative motive for the Luhnow data hack. As the latter NYT article pointed out - why would they bother breaking into the system of the worst team in baseball who's data they already had if it wasn't expressly to spite Jeff Luhnow?

If you believe that there was a substantial competitive advantage gained here - please expound. The Cardinals almost certainly have the systems that Luhnow was incorporating at the time of the data breach. They have any of the information they would have been able to get. There's no new insight to be gleaned here had there been had they hacked any other team in baseball. This one particular GM simply had no new insight to offer them as he was running the Cardinals player procurement system for 5 years or so before he left.

There's no benefit to price enforcing on a team outside the division and again, if they used it to get a FA to sign with them, it could have only been Peralta - the only key FA signing they made in that time period. The only major trades they made were for guys like Mujica. The Astros, being in a complete rebuild, would not have been in on guys like Mujica and Peralta. They could have found out some intel on how other teams value their players but guess how else they could have found that out? Call the other teams. Those teams are going to be just as likely to feed misinformation to the Astros as they are the Cardinals. The only true 'trustworthy' intel would have been internal.

I also acknowledged that as the dust settles it could turn out that they did use this to their advantage in some instances, in which case I'll view it differently. However, right now, based on the timelines of the data leaked, this appears almost certainly to have occurred in the Spring of 2013 and maybe have impacted 2 drafts, no trades and no FA signings.

Explain how I'm being a homer here.

Had this been the Cubs, Dodgers, Yankees, Angels, D-Rays....literally ANY other team, then the motive would have been clearly competitive and the takeaway could have been far more substantial. It wasn't. My analysis is specific to this instance and the particular GM/System that was compromised. How is that hard to digest?

Originally Posted by Swanman (Post 11551533)

All in all, he is an absolutely god awful manager that has been gifted with a consistently great roster roster and a great front office.

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11551552)

this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?

Originally Posted by kysirsoze (Post 11551546)

Personally, I think that damaging the competitive advantage of another team out of spite is just as bad for baseball as cheating for you own gain. I mean, when the leak came out it was a big embarrassment for the Astros and seemed to hurt them when it came to trade discussions. As it stands right now, barring significant new info coming to light, I think anyone who authorized/performed these invasions should be banned from the sport for life.

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11551566)

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 11551566)

I suspect that's exactly what will happen. With the emphasis on baseball analytics, data security is incredibly important. I figure MLB will look to make an example of the parties involved here. Like I said, I hope it's a rogue operator or I expect the entire Cardinals front office is detonated.

As to its impact on the Astros - well it came to light in June of 2014 when they were openly tanking. You're welcome to comb that roster for anyone with substantial trade value if you'd like. They weren't going to trade anyone that was part of their rebuilding process so you're pretty much just looking at guys like Chad Qualls, who they liked enough to bring back. They got a very nice return for Jarrod Cosart - way more than I thought they should get. Scott Feldman? His contract guaranteed him $20 million...for a 31 yr old 5th starter. He has no value to speak of.

It was embarrassing for Luhnow, but I think it's pretty unlikely that it had an impact on his dealings. Hell, if anything had teams mad at him at the time, it was the Aiken debacle. He really lost a lot of face there (wholly unfairly, IMO).

Originally Posted by Hootie 2.0 (Post 11551552)

this is a contradiction

a great front office doesn't hire a god awful manager -- unless, of course, your great front office realizes managing is no longer about X's and O's as much as it is about managing the clubhouse

so you can't have it both ways

why would a great front office hire a 'god awful manager'?

Originally Posted by kysirsoze (Post 11551573)

Well I hope for y'all's sake this isn't as bad as it looks and it was some rogue dipshit. I know STL fans get tons of hate, but some of my best friends live and die with this team. This would be about the only thing that could make this Royals fans feel bad for them. :)

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 11551589)

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.

Originally Posted by kysirsoze (Post 11551594)

That's true. I'll be honest, I'd pull it out in a pinch if I'm losing a baseball argument. Of course I'm a terrible friend.

Originally Posted by wazu (Post 11551589)

Problem is, the "rogue dipshit" explanation doesn't usually fly. Even if true the public won't buy it. Cards fans will be assaulted with this story for years if not decades. It will be a giant media shadow for the remainder of this great season they are having right now.