Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10545791)

Once Sutton is gone KC might not run a 3-4 though..

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 10545820)

I think that would be a really terrible shame if the Chiefs ditched the 3-4 given our personnel. And I'd be shocked if we did.

Originally Posted by Pestilence (Post 10545826)

Exactly what would we lose out on....personnel wise? Houston can play DE in a 4-3. Poe is a damn good fit in a 4-3.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 10545853)

If your stud players have shown they're great fits for a 3-4, then build your defense around that. I'm sure those guys could be successful, but not even close to a guarantee that they'll be as good in a different role. We don't need to Pioli this thing and force a defensive approach that we can't guarantee will match the personnel.

Originally Posted by Pestilence (Post 10545865)

We don't run the 3-4 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10545679)

Trading someone like Bowl would accelerate his hit if I'm not mistaken.

Originally Posted by mcaj22 (Post 10546207)

I've been kicking the 4-3 change tires for awhile

Two different styles of the 34 defense now, and they still don't have the right personnel to play it in pass happy league and they go right to nickel/dime 50 percent of the time anyway so **** it.

34 defense was good for all of 9 games (last year) in 5 years of it being installed in the Chiefs defense. A switch to the 43 would keep them from drafting shitty 5 techs and signing even shittier ILB thumpers that cant do anything.

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 10546513)

Someone brought this up on twitter, made a lot of sense to me. Here in KC, we haven't ever drafted really well, we as fans focus a lot of the problem being based on scouting etc.

However, very few guys come into the league and dominate from day 1, or even consistently play well. Seems we should be more focused on development of said players.

Which brings me to my point, I don't think we've ever had the right setup for sustained success in acquisition and development of players.

Marty's staff were good/great developers, Carl wasn't very good in the draft. Same wth vermeil.

I don't know what was going on with pioli, likely neither.

We can hope this front office and coaching staff can successfully match up. I think te coaching staff has proven to be able to develop players, don't know about the acquisition part yet.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10545629)

Well if they're not good enough to compete this year they probably won't be good enough the next season.

Tear it down John. Trade anything not bolted down and stockpile draft picks. Let's go all in for 2017.

Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 10546633)

Thought this was a great comment:



It adds some really interesting color to what the Chiefs did last year. Maybe last year's big push had a lot to do with Reid wanting to get his locker room right. After all, the entire locker room was new to him, so maybe he wanted to make sure he had a lot more of his guys in there. It would explain why he got rid of Eric Winston and Cassel really, really quickly.

So it goes back to your post, which was great by the way. We know Andy can develop talent. We know this approach works, because it worked in Green Bay and Seattle. Some of us, myself included, are worried about Andy making the right coaching decisions to win us big game. Many of us justifiably worry that Dorsey's lukewarm first offseason is a sign of things to come. But I think what's becoming extremely obvious is that this offseason says a lot more about how Reid and Dorsey want to do things than last season.

Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 10547093)

In a strange twist of fate here's another buddy of mine (both in LA) who met Cassel and hung out with him. This buddy is actually a Chiefs fan.

http://i.imgur.com/udlsIfW.jpg

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547323)

That quote is Andy Reid directly talking about the Desean Jackson/Dwayne Bowe dynamic.

Not a doubt in my mind.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547386)

Build through the draft, build through the draft.

Oh, except at the most important position on the field.

Originally Posted by PGM (Post 10547321)

Oh for ****s sake

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 10547397)

Smith was 28 when they acquired him and he has been the best QB option over the past two free agencies and drafts with a NFC Championship game under his belt.

I don't see the problem here with this at all.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10547398)

The whole team has to be rebuilt to be truly competitive. It's going to take two or three drafts like 2008 to be a complete team.

They need to play for 2018 and a handful of superbowls rather than the one and done every third year like their on track for now.

The sooner the FO realizes this the better.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547400)

I don't have a problem with the move.

I have a problem with them putting so much effort into explaining to the fans that it's ALL about the draft when we can all plainly see that it's not.

This kind of doublespeak bullshit should have left with Pioli.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10547398)

The whole team has to be rebuilt to be truly competitive. It's going to take two or three drafts like 2008 to be a complete team.

They need to play for 2018 and a handful of superbowls rather than the one and done every third year like their on track for now.

The sooner the FO realizes this the better.

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 10547408)

I don't see anyone saying that it's ALL about the draft. They brought in guys last year in FA at positions that needed immediate help in order for this team to be relatively competitive.

Dorsey said as much when he mentioned needing to break the culture of losing cycle with this team.

With those pieces in place, they will now go about building the team, filling in the pieces through the draft (for the most part). Like most good teams do.

I think you are taking too much of a "black or white/either or" perspective here.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547454)

When this team is getting pummeled by good quarterbacks because of the teams continued poor play from its safeties, just remember how many good ones were out there in free agency at every price point.

Want the best one in the NFL? Jarius Byrd signed for 9/yr
Want a second tier beast? TJ Ward signed for under 6/yr
Want a fantastic value? How about Clemons for dirt cheap...

When we are wishing we had more playmakers on offense, just remember how we didn't close the deal with Sanders and Desean Jackson signed for only 8/yr

When Jeff Allen still sucks, just remember we could have signed Evan Dietrich Smith for dirt cheap and moved Hudson to left guard.

Originally Posted by suzzer99 (Post 10547093)

In a strange twist of fate here's another buddy of mine (both in LA) who met Cassel and hung out with him. This buddy is actually a Chiefs fan.

http://i.imgur.com/udlsIfW.jpg

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547400)

I don't have a problem with the move.

I have a problem with them putting so much effort into explaining to the fans that it's ALL about the draft when we can all plainly see that it's not.

This kind of doublespeak bullshit should have left with Pioli.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547476)

I know we don't really want to like Alex Smith because of team history and seeing a pic of Cassel further solidify s that thought process, but I truly believe that the guy is gonna have a big year in 2014.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10547529)

Which is the absolute worst thing that can happen if this team wants to seriously move forward in rebuilding.

Unless the man wants to accept the fact he's keeping the seat warm for a true franchise QB that the team should happen to come across and is willing to be paid as such.

Kansas City cannot give that guy a Tony Romo or Jay Cutler contract at all.

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 10547558)

And yet Tony Romo and Jay Cutler got Tony Romo or Jay Cutler level deals.

And then one has to consider that Smith is younger and is at least the equal of either player.

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 10547398)

The whole team has to be rebuilt to be truly competitive. It's going to take two or three drafts like 2008 to be a complete team.

They need to play for 2018 and a handful of superbowls rather than the one and done every third year like their on track for now.

The sooner the FO realizes this the better.

Originally Posted by PGM (Post 10547630)

3 drafts like 08 to even compete ROFL I swear I am in the looney bin

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547474)

Have to go outside your comfort zone when your best QB on the roster is a middling backup.

Originally Posted by Saccopoo (Post 10547558)

And yet Tony Romo and Jay Cutler got Tony Romo or Jay Cutler level deals.

And then one has to consider that Smith is younger and is at least the equal of either player.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547747)

Then don't try so hard to sell people on an idea that you don't fully believe in.

Why can't they just come out and say exactly what you just said?

Because then they can't explain this offseason, that's why.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547454)

When this team is getting pummeled by good quarterbacks because of the teams continued poor play from its safeties, just remember how many good ones were out there in free agency at every price point.

Want the best one in the NFL? Jarius Byrd signed for 9/yr
Want a second tier beast? TJ Ward signed for under 6/yr
Want a fantastic value? How about Clemons for dirt cheap...

When we are wishing we had more playmakers on offense, just remember how we didn't close the deal with Sanders and Desean Jackson signed for only 8/yr

When Jeff Allen still sucks, just remember we could have signed Evan Dietrich Smith for dirt cheap and moved Hudson to left guard.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547749)

Romo and Cutler got their contracts. And now they'll never get rings.

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547762)

How many wins do media statements count for again?

Hoogivsahfugg?

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547771)

Speaking of which, what was the deal with the Bears and McCown? Did he shit the bed some time last year and I missed it, are they that in love with Cutler [he did get a new K while coming back from injury, right?], or was it out of their hands?

I only caught three games, IIRC, but they were three pretty impressive games. More impressive than I've seen of Cutler.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547454)

When this team is getting pummeled by good quarterbacks because of the teams continued poor play from its safeties, just remember how many good ones were out there in free agency at every price point.

Want the best one in the NFL? Jarius Byrd signed for 9/yr
Want a second tier beast? TJ Ward signed for under 6/yr
Want a fantastic value? How about Clemons for dirt cheap...

When we are wishing we had more playmakers on offense, just remember how we didn't close the deal with Sanders and Desean Jackson signed for only 8/yr

When Jeff Allen still sucks, just remember we could have signed Evan Dietrich Smith for dirt cheap and moved Hudson to left guard.

Originally Posted by Messier (Post 10547802)

I can agree with the Sanders failure. The other points you are making, are your perspective. Just saying, Dorsey, and Reid I'm guessing agrees, believes the solutions to some of the failings of the team can be found in house. You can, and must disagree with this strategy. They clearly want some backups and rookies from last year to step up to become key players for them moving forward.

Not saying it will work, but it has for other teams before. Teams like the Steelers and Packers rarely look outside the team for replacing their losses, and have the next man up approach. And I know, Alex Smith doesn't jive with that. Reid wanted him, and there you go, so far, he was right.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547789)

I think it's typical NFL thinking. Cutler is "elite" and McCown isn't. Honestly I don't get the infatuation with Jay Cutler. Yeah, he's a physical specimen but he's not a winner and never will be.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547784)

How many wins does sitting pat in free agency and depending on a draft in which you're short picks get you?

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547808)

Good post save one point. He was right about Alex Smith the player, but you simply cannot wash away the price that was paid for him and pretend it doesn't have an impact. One of the reasons the Steelers and Packers are successful in their approach is because they stockpile picks, not trade them away.

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547830)

I'd also add, teams like the 'Hawks target and seize key players early but not too early like Wilson, and hit on players like Sherman for incredible value. The Chiefs would be a very different team if we'd found 5-6 Jared Allens instead of one they let walk, albeit for great value in retrospect.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547808)

Good post save one point. He was right about Alex Smith the player, but you simply cannot wash away the price that was paid for him and pretend it doesn't have an impact. One of the reasons the Steelers and Packers are successful in their approach is because they stockpile picks, not trade them away.

Originally Posted by Messier (Post 10547836)

Correct. But as I said. Reid must have felt strongly enough about acquiring Smith, that losing two high picks was worth it. This is all me guessing, but if they felt Smith would give them more than any QB in last years or this years draft, and that his impact would be more than any player they would pick at those spots, you do it.

They simply felt: Alex Smith > the 2 second rounders. I can't disagree at this point.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547843)

At this point.

Looking back on this in 10 years, I'm guessing we'll be saying the same things we said about the Trent Green trade. Or the Matt Cassel trade.

We can only hope it's closer to the Joe Montana trade.

And that's just the thing. We've tried this. Over and over actually. And it's never worked. I can understand that people want to hope that their team can be a winner.

I'm past that. I won't ever fully believe in this team again without the benefit of hindsight.

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547861)

The Trent Green trade was a good trade. The Trent Green trade wasn't the reason we hired Greg Robinson, Vermiel didn't give a shit about the defense, and we drafted worse than Matt Millen.

The Cassel trade was a bad trade, period. They could have GIVEN us picks and it would have been a bad trade.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547863)

We could have had Drew Brees instead of Trent Green.

At "this point" after that trade, Drew Brees was average about 4 years per attempt and looked like garbage...

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547868)

So, 55-45 losses instead of 55-38 losses, or something?

Originally Posted by PGM (Post 10547888)

I am sorry but two seconds is something that shouldn't be insurmountable to overcome. The level of play last year exceeded that value.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547890)

I never said it was insurmountable.

It's also not insignificant, especially to a team that professes to be building almost solely through the draft.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547863)

We could have had Drew Brees instead of Trent Green.

At "this point" after that trade, Drew Brees was average about 4 years per attempt and looked like garbage...

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 10547899)

Committing to hitting on picks is more important than stockpiling and hoping hit, and certainly more than presenting a more coherent philosophy to the media.

Originally Posted by Dr. Van Halen (Post 10547907)

Uh, do you mean we could have drafted Drew Brees instead of trading for Trent Green? Brees was far from a sure-fire draft pick. He went at the end of the second round (pick 65?)...

By that logic we could have drafted any number of non-first round qb successes. Why didn't we draft Tom Brady in 2000! We suck!

Also, you continue to talk about draft history. No such thing. Different people running the drafts. It's not cause and effect -- because we drafted Paul Palmer and it didn't work out does not mean we will be gun shy when it comes time to draft a WR this year.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547895)

It's funny. When Carl sat on his hands during the early part of free agency, there was hand-wringing and bitching and people joking about vacations in Jamaica.

When Dorsey does it, he "knows what he's doing".

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547910)

Of course, the "history doesn't exist" argument. Love it.

Originally Posted by Dr. Van Halen (Post 10547926)

You cannot judge or guess what they will do based on SOMEONE ELSE's ACTIONS.

Originally Posted by Dr. Van Halen (Post 10547926)

You are not justifiably pessimistic. You are just pessimistic.

Originally Posted by Dr. Van Halen (Post 10547919)

People said that about Carl because we had a huge history of his behavior to judge. He did, in fact, take vacations in Jamaica during the start of free agency.

I think it is as reasonable to be optimistic about Dorsey, rather than pessimistic.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547931)

I'm not judging them nor am I trying to guess what they will do.

I'm merely saying that I don't have any hope in what they're doing. It's called human nature.



History justifies my opinion. You can deny it all you want but you'd be wrong.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10547936)

I think both are reasonable.

Dorsey has never been a GM before. To place in trust in him, you are essentially trusting a complete unknown. There's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with the opposite opinion.

Originally Posted by Dr. Van Halen (Post 10547962)

You aren't judging them but you are saying that you have no hope whatsoever in anything that they do or say? Uh... I think that's called "judging."

History does not justify your position. You are merely a pessimist.

Originally Posted by BossChief (Post 10547454)

When this team is getting pummeled by good quarterbacks because of the teams continued poor play from its safeties, just remember how many good ones were out there in free agency at every price point.

Want the best one in the NFL? Jarius Byrd signed for 9/yr
Want a second tier beast? TJ Ward signed for under 6/yr
Want a fantastic value? How about Clemons for dirt cheap...

When we are wishing we had more playmakers on offense, just remember how we didn't close the deal with Sanders and Desean Jackson signed for only 8/yr

When Jeff Allen still sucks, just remember we could have signed Evan Dietrich Smith for dirt cheap and moved Hudson to left guard.

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10548077)

Judgement is something that occurs based on the evidence of the past. Dorsey has no past. By definition, I'm not judging him.

As for whether or not I have hope, I don't have much hope for the CHIEFS. Dorsey is a somewhat innocent bystander, unfortunately. But I never said I have no hope in anything they do whatsoever. I like several of the moves they've made.

I'm just not hopeful they, or anybody else associated with the Chiefs, will ever win a Super Bowl.

Originally Posted by philfree (Post 10548090)

And you're going to keep reiterating it on the internets till the end of time because you really don't care. :spock: You just sit still and I'll call for your waaaaambulance.

Originally Posted by philfree (Post 10548090)

And you're going to keep reiterating it on the internets till the end of time because you really don't care. :spock: You just sit still and I'll call for your waaaaambulance.

Originally Posted by keg in kc (Post 10548145)

Looks like you should call one for yourself.

Christ, don't people know how to discuss anything anymore?

Seems like conversations can't go 5 minutes without shit like this. :shake:

Originally Posted by htismaqe (Post 10548151)

ROFL