If we were going to cut him why not do it earlier when we could have used some of that savings to improve the team?...

By waiting until June 1, they can spread the cap hit over two seasons instead of absorbing it all this season.

Hall contributed at least last year. We're talking about someone who had 10 sacks last year to someone who allowed 800 yards. Hali plays a more impactful position and plays it better. Simple as that.
Posted via Mobile Device

All of his sacks (but two) came in the first 7 games against mostly inferior talent.

When the games mattered most, he disappeared. I wouldn't call that impactful.

More impactful position?

Not anymore.

Today's NFL requires CBs (and safeties) that can do their jobs, both before and after the pass.

If your corners can't make the tackles and minimize yac in the quick passing game, there is no pass rusher that will have any impact.

Yeah. And Flowers was bad during that same 7 game stretch against the same inferior talent. So I'd still rather have Hali.
Posted via Mobile Device

Big surprise Hali ' s production dropped after being hurt.

I'd still rather have a decent pass rusher than a decent corner. If you're not getting pressure it really doesn't matter how great your corners are. And right now Flowers isn't close to great.
Posted via Mobile Device

I don't see anyone giving Flowers a pass for playing hurt most of the year.

Here come those double standards I was talking about earlier...

good pass rush is useless with some of these QBs that have a quick releases against shitty pass coverage.

see: Colts-Chiefs playoff game RE: Andrew Luck scoring touchdowns in 30 second drives

I have said that it's a bigger loss than people are trying to sell.

Im in this camp as well. Some of us did say that he played hurt all year and expect him to be in 2012 form. However, he will probably get banged up again this season. IMO, the Chiefs cut him a year too soon but I understand the economics of the situation. Its also better to drop a player a year early than a year late.

True. Made even worse once Flowers went down...

Years ago, I would have been right there with you.

I did, in fact, argue that pass rushers, and the front 7 in general, was far more valuable than the secondary.

However, as the league has evolved into a passing league, what it has also evolved into is a yac lead.

2700 of Peyton Manning's 5500 passing yards came on yac.
Only 3 teams gained fewer than 1500 yards of yac.

That means that teams are getting the ball out quicker.

If your secondary doesn't makes stops after the catch, then you can kiss any chance of getting to the QB goodbye.

Seattle's defensive domination of the Donkeys illustrated that.

Seattle's pass rush came into play only after the Seahawks secondary shut down yac and forced Manning to start looking for bigger plays through the air, thus holding the ball for that second longer.

I thought we were saving 7 of his 9 mil.

Are we really that worried about spreading 2 mil over 2 years?...

Rep.

I haven't looked at the particulars, just pointing out why teams generally wait until June.

Why do you think there's a double standard? I'm confused? Do you think people hate Flowers or something?

One player played well for a good chunk of the year last year and one only played well for 1 game. Flowers has been dealing with lingering injuries for 2 years now and isin a ddefense that's asking him to be more physical than he usually is and do things that even he didn't/doesn't want to do.
Posted via Mobile Device

Are you serious?

BTW, FYP for clarity' sake.

When I first heard the news I wondered the same thing....However, King pointed out that it was the only way to save the $7MIL THIS season. I didnt do the research but that appears to be the deal.

He isn't being asked to be more physical? He has to play press more. He has to tackle more seeing as he'll be left alone by himself more often. He had 20 more tackles last year than he had any other year of his career. I don't think that's a fluke.
Posted via Mobile Device

If Gaines is a stud it won't matter. Time to find out if Dorsey is as good as advertised.

Chris Owens is a player of similar size and stature.
He's a good nickle corner who'll also contribute on special teams.
Owens is also slated to make less than a million dollars in 2014.

Trading Flowers was great in theory, but no one wanted that contract.
It's unfortunate, but there's not much else the front office could do.
Flowers isn't a press-man corner anyway. /theend

He is put in a position that he hasn't been in prior to last year, but he's been one of the most phyical corners in the league during his career.

:clap: This is exactly the case now. Both aspects are important, however their weighted importance has shifted with the evolution of the short passing game and supporting rule modifications.

Because pass rushers are harder to find than CB's.

Oh yeah I agree. I've always said he's extremely interested physical. That's my point. Him playing in a system that puts him in those positions even more is probably not a great thing for him at this point in his career.
Posted via Mobile Device

I will add that cutting Flowers only makes sense if we use the money for Houston etc.....

Shouldn't be an issue, as we apparently just drafted the next Derrick Thomas.

This is my issue with it.

If they cut him and don't bother putting the money towards Houston THIS YEAR, they could have waited.

And to be clear, I'm not necessarily upset with the move. I figured he was gone next year. Hali as well. Just not sure why if you're cutting guys who are getting older and losing a step, why Hali is some sacred cow and Flowers is expendable.

Or better yet, if you're just looking to save some money, why Flowers has to go NOW, while guys like Daniel, DeVito, Fasano and Colquitt are making $4M each.

Not a single one of those guys would be missed, and all are ridiculously overpaid.

Colquitt would. Unless your boy Sucupp is punting for you?

This is my issue. If we don't extend Houston or Smith with these savings this season, we just cut a good CB for absolutely no reason.

Where did you find that stat? Your imagination? It's not a fluke.. it's just not true.

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...F/FlowBr99.htm

http://www.nfl.com/player/brandonflowers/754/profile

My thoughts exactly...

That's incorrect. Under the new CBA they could have cut him sooner and still designated him as a June 1 cut. I believe teams are allowed to do that with 2 players each year. The Chiefs did it with none so the option was available. Waiting this long makes no sense

This was my point...

I'll preface this by saying I'm not 100% sure, but IIRC, the money still stays on your cap until June 1st.

The Cowboys did this with Miles Austin, I believe.

The chargers dont play cover 3 press out of the 4-3 under.

Would Flowers make Seattles roster if they could have him for cheap? No becuase they'd take a 6'2 UDFA who can run over him

But yes installing a cover 3 press won't make your defense = to Seattles. Or else the Jags would be the second best D in the league.

The point is that you need the players, and that's how my comments relate to this thread, the players Seattle is choosing in the secondary are large UDFA type CB's

LMAO

Good Point.
I still value pass rushers more.
With good reason.

Defenses have won rings with shit secondaries.
Tell me the last time a D with a shit front 7 was part of the reason a team won a ring.

I would bet that if it was Hali that was cut, you'd be making the exact opposite argument.

That's what I've been thinking.
If nothing is done with the $$, then WTF was the point?

Your road to success is UDFA corner backs?

LMAO

What I am saying is that the value of the secondary has increased substantially with the evolution of the passig/yac league.

Neither are going to win you anything without the other in today's NFL.

If your secondary doesn't force QBs to start looking for bigger plays, thne your pass rush is going to have any chance to do squat, and they then have to cover when the QB starts looking for those bigger plays.

When that happens, your pass rush has to produce.

You can no longer expect one unit to control the game.

It has to be a total effort.

Best post in this thread. :thumb:

This is exactly why Dorsey prefers bigger CBs. In press man, bigger CBs are able to disrupt the timing between the QB and WR and hopefully give the pass rushers more time to get to the QB. It's a team effort.

I absolutely see your point. I'd still say that Hali with a lost step is going to be better than Ford in his rookie year

Can't argue with you there.

Solid as always...

And Flowers wouldn't have been better than Owens or Gaines?

I just find it odd that when Flowers has a bad year, he deserves to be cut - but when other players making more money than their production dictates - and are older - the same folks change their opinion.

the money vs production argument fails because that would mean Dwayne Bowe on paper statistically should be gone yesterday. Absolutely horrible stats for 11 million per.

In fairness, WR's depend on a QB to get them the ball. They can do everything right, be wide open, and the QB goes elsewhere with the ball.

While it's nice to have Houston opposite him, Hali doesn't require anything from him to sack the QB.

And considering the shit-show of QBs that Bowe has played with, his production has been pretty remarkable over his career.

Flowers was a great open field tackler for a CB. We'll miss that.

LMAO Bowe's contract. I always forget about that.

In fairness, Alex likes to distribute the ball around so his receivers have never had gaudy stats... But ****ing a, dude. He's getting top 5 WR money when he deserved top 15 at best.

Shit. Remembering that deal really makes me cringe at the idea of Dorsey in negotiations with Houston and Smith. We're going to get taken to the woodshed.

One of the two had to be cut to make room for Houston and/or Smith. Tamba Hali was the more productive of the two last year. So he gets to stay and Flowers gets the boot.

I don't see why that's hard to understand. For some reason in this thread you've acted like people hate Flowers and just wanted to see him gone.

They waited to cut him because they wanted something in return for him and couldn't get it.

If traded, the team trading for his contract is only responsible for the remaining base salaries...meaning no nfl team was willing to give up anything for Brandon Flowers on a 3 year/18 million dollar deal...which is very affordable.

6/yr for a 27 year old pro bowl corner is NOTHING.

Which makes me think he has a medical issue that's scaring everyone away.

Because Flowers is one of our best defenders.

If they wanted to create cap space, they should have cut both kickers, Fasano and Daniel.

Losing those guys doesn't impact the team as much as losing Flowers and we have replacements in line already for them...or could get replacements as udfas

This.

A 28 year old who has been nothing but great his entire career has one bad year, and people think he's washed up.

We have plenty of overpaid slapdicks we could have cut if it were only about money.

Yes. Cornerback is not a position that you have to spend high draft picks on. Especially when you can get by with one trick pony types of CB's. The CB's that Seattle and KC are after wouldn't be great corner backs for teams that run a multitude of coverages. Therefore they fall.

Milkman Earl Thomas(and the lb's) were cheating up vs Denver. Peyton Manning said it numerous times if you listened to his mic'd up portion. It wasn't a matter of them being phenom tacklers as much as it was their scheme recognizing that Denver wanted to dink and dunk so they were playing their zones toward the line.

Denver couldn't beat them over the top because they have Earl Thomas and a very good rotation of pass rush

Oh look, a moron thinks he's going to educate me,

Crush him, milkdaddy.

This.

Was

Cutting all those guys combined don't add up to what we got by cutting Flowers alone. And no team cuts a bunch of other players just so they don't have to cut one under performing player.

One poor season, due to a knee.
If healthy, he is still one of our best players.

As for those other players, with without Flowers even in the consideration, they're still overpaid and should be cut.

I disagree. A lot of Hali's sacks early in the season were chased our turned into Hali by Houston. When Houston left with injury, Hali's production went to shit.

Once again though. He's had lingering issues the past 2 seasons and doesn't fit what Dorsey and Sutton want in a CB.

Sure, but that doesn't mean you cut all of them at once just to save someone who doesn't even want to play in the system.

The pass rush disappeared because of Houston's injury and Poe's fatigue.

Smith completely ignored Bowe for like the first 5 games whether he was open our not.

Personally I think it was b/c of the number of routes Bowe ran to the sideline, Alex's weakest area. Also early on it seemed like they used Bowe to draw coverage on a few decoy routes. Not an overwhelming amount, but passing downs none the less.

I don't think many people think he's washed up, just that he does not in any way for the scheme, and has become a liability deep.

You're overplaying a bad season due to injury to justify your argument.

I get that Flowers doesn't really fit, and that his contract was overblown, but don't exagerarte his poor play due to injury for one season into he is a bad player.

Right, but Hali disappeared once Houston left the field.

I noted very early in the season that many of Hali's sacks were a case of him benefiting from the other side and the middle. He's definitely lost a step.

I'm not trying to make it seem like he is a bad player. He's an overpaid player past his prime, in a system he doesn't belong in and doesn't want to play in. Cutting him also makes space for our best pass rusher. So I don't consider it a big deal.

We really aren't disagreeing.

It's a tad early to declare him past his prime~

Sure as hell hope our CB's step up and play....esp if Sean Smith gets suspended by the league. If not...it's gonna be a long season. Not necessarily saying Smith is a season saver, he has his own issues on the field as well...but in a matter of a week, we not only lost our (Pro Bowl) CB, but we may have lost our #2 as well for a considerable amount of time.

Cooper
Parker
Owens
Gaines
Commings/Abdullah

For a team that has to face Rivers and Manning twice a season, that list seems a bit concerning.

Why would you think Smith would get suspended for a considerable amount of time? I would think at most it would be 2 games.

There is no way that losing Flowers is not a bad blow for this season. He is a vet and a tough competitor. We will hurt but if this gets Houston his money then it had to be done.

My future son in law who is a big Broncos fan said he was going to bring me flowers for father's day,but said I would probably throw them away.
All I had to say is 43-8.
We had a peaceful Fathers Day.