Lol

Agree. Wiggins isn't great, but he's a better fit than Kyrie.

It's all going to be moot, anyway. Even if we corralled the most possible pieces we could offer, which would be Wiggins, Teague, and Dieng, I doubt the Cavs would look at that offer twice. The salaries for Dieng and Teague wouldn't be what they can work with, and I doubt that would STILL be enough for them, since the Wolves would certainly be asking for a player back that they could use.

teague can't be moved for a while.

I love the wolves, but I'm not sure that'd be a great deal for them. Dieng is a solid rim protector and Wiggins will likely be a solid wing defender. Both should accel under thibs.

Wiggins has been pretty bad in his first three years. Don't watch him enough to know how soon/whether that will change, but he certainly doesn't look like a star right now.

"Pretty bad" LMAO LMAO

Anthony Bennett was pretty bad. Derrick Williams was pretty bad. And if you don't mind, Dion Waiters was pretty ****ing bad.

There are far better players in the NBA (and now on the Wolves), but a guy who puts up at least 20/game each season is hardly "pretty bad." Underwhelming for what was expected of him? Sure, but get the **** out of here like Wiggins is some Michael Olowokandi mother****er.

I don't get why Irving wants to be traded. He takes as many shots as he wants, he handles the ball as much as he wants, he goes to the Finals the last 3 years and wins 1 championship, makes millions of dollars yet he wants to go to the ****ing Knicks or Wolves and suck and never win shit again?

How stupid is he? Hasn't he seen his -12.8 net rating when Lebron is off the court and he is running the show? ****ing idiot...

Volume scorers who do literally nothing else on court (he's a pitiful defender still too) don't count for much anymore. Ceiling these days looks much more like DeMar DeRozan than Tracy McGrady.

If he really hates being a #2, you'd think he'd just wait this year out. LeBron is out of there this time next year.

Exactly. Makes zero sense.

Good news for Cavs fans it doesn't seem like they want to move him anytime soon so he is going to have to kiss and make up with Lebron. Oh the horror of going to another Finals.

He's not a terrible player. He's flawed defensively, but remember when everybody bitched their head off about the Love trade because the Cavs were getting rid of a guy who could "come in and play good wing defense off the bench?" He's only had 3 years in the league, 3 different coaches, and two years where he was immediately thrust into the lineup as THE guy. It's like a QB getting drafted by a shitty team who goes through bouts of franchise instability, and while he puts up pretty decent stats and hasn't lost the knack for showing off why a team drafted him in the first place, he has the knack of being a loser on a loser team.

If everybody thought he was a defense-first player who would slowly integrate better scoring into his toolbox as a player, he's still got the ability to do that, I'd say, particularly with the solid surrounding defense-friendly environment he'll be playing in if he doesn't get traded.

If after this year he's still losing the handle at inopportune times, making dumb jumpshot choices, and ranking near the bottom in defense rankings after this season, then sure. Call him a bust if you want.

Wiggins as as underwhelming or disappointing so far is quite fair but terrible is not with only 3 years in.

Yeah the whole thing is weird though could just be as simple as doesn't get along well with Lebron. Kyrie - Earth is maybe flat - is maybe not the the sharpest guy either.

Maybe he wants to go to a team that isn't ran by one player?

You think it's all Kyrie's fault that the team sucks when LeBron is off the court?
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Why would any player want to stay in Cleveland? I'd want to leave too regardless of what LeBron does.
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The same people mad at Kyrie for leaving a winning team where he's a second option to go try to lead a team on his own are the same people mad at Durant for leaving a team he was leading to be a second option in order to win.

It's quite amusing really.
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That approach seemed to have mostly gone away back when Lebron formed up the Miami super team.

It's definitely hypocrisy.

But a lot of them are Lebron defenders so it doesn't surprise me. Even he is handling it like a hypocrite.

Alternatively, if Irving ends up taking this team a step forward from Wiggins, doesn't it increase the odds of retaining KAT and Butler tremendously?

Because THOSE are the guys you need to keep. If losing Wiggins increases the chance of keeping the other two by as much as 10%, then it's a good move.

Wiggins is the best player on a 30 win team, IMO. He's not a bad player by any means - in fact I'd say he's probably a pretty decent one. But as you've noted, he's one more season away from sliding more towards 'overpriced bust' than anything. He's gonna get a max deal by virtue of his draft position and if he can't become a more efficient scorer, the team that gives him that deal is going to be worse for it.

I think there's a little divestiture aversion here. If both Wiggins and Irving were FAs and the Wolves could sign either (with neither having any ties to Minn.), I think you'd take Irving without hesitation. He's simply a better player with more upside and he's not that much older.

Now Wiggins could find his outside stroke and prove me wrong....or at least less right (I don't see a scenario where he's clearly better than Irving), but that's a 50/50 proposition at best.

Just seems to me that the best path towards true relevance for the Wolves is via Irving, KAT and Butler.

And as for how it impacts Butler with forwards defending him - like I said, the league's moving away from traditional positions anyway. Butler is going to have to deal with forwards defending him against a lot teams simply because many teams no longer utilize a true #1 and have gravitated towards stretch 3s playing what used to be a 2 (with the former 2s sliding in as combo guards). Not everybody has the personnel to do it, but not everybody has a 3 that can hang with Butler anyway. Besides, with Wiggins not being a truly dynamic scorer, I think most teams that have a 3 that can harass Butler would have him on Butler anyway with their 2 on Wiggins.

It's not completely hypocritcal; it's just criticism for different reasons.

People criticize Durant not because he left, but because he joined a turn-key champion and the competitive drive we want to see from our athletes says we'd prefer seem them blaze their own trail. The whole 'to be the best you gotta beat the best' thing is a staple of athletic competition. Durant didn't have to beat the best - he just joined them.

That same competitive instinct makes us look at a guy in Irving who wants to leave a winning team to go...well anywhere he can be a more clear #1 option (including shit teams like the Knicks) makes people take pause. It certainly makes me wonder why his motivation is.

But then I remember that Kobe didn't want to go to a team, chuck up shots and lose. He wanted to go to a team, chuck up shots and prove that he can kick ass without Shaq. It was still pure ego at work, but it wasn't pure ego without competitive drive (and yeah, the league has plenty of those guys; Carmelo Anthony, for one). So maybe that's what Irving's looking to do. He's not looking to go pile up hollow offense, get a shoe deal and show that he can score from behind. He's looking to prove that he can go somewhere and be 'the man' and win still.

I don't fault him, but I also don't think it's fair to say anyone that criticizes both him and Durant are being hypocritical.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cleveland and Boston have moved into serious talks on a trade centered on All-Star guard Kyrie Irving, league sources tell ESPN.</p>&mdash; Adrian Wojnarowski (@wojespn) <a href="https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/900119503203438594">August 22, 2017</a></blockquote>
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That'd be interesting to see Isiah's scoring with LeBron's passing. They'd be very tough to stop offensively but that wasn't the Cavs problem last year and Isiah's D isn't the best because of his height.

Fail trade for the Cavs but hey at least they get rid of the crybaby Irving.

Well you are a well known dumbass so it's no surprise you think its a fail trade.

The only reason people on here think I am a dumbass is because I don't follow the opinion that Alex Smith is a terrible QB yet most NFL GMs and players would agree with me. So some delusional fans posting on a message board calling me a dumbass doesn't bother me.

Second all the details of the trade have not been finalized, if it even happens. Maybe it will turn out to be the greatest trade in the history of the NBA but as of right now I don't see it.

Third we all know if the Spurs stay healthy they are winning the NBA Championship anyway so who cares right?

lol all the guys who went to Boston to help rebuild/win/revive their careers are going to get traded away so good.

The deal is done.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Cavs agree to deal Kyrie Irving for Isaiah Thomas, Jae Crowder, Ante Zizic and 2018 Nets pick, source told ESPN.</p>&mdash; Jeff Goodman (@GoodmanESPN) <a href="https://twitter.com/GoodmanESPN/status/900135459510243332">August 22, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Looks like a good deal for both teams

That's a really good trade for Cleveland. Irving is a better player than Thomas, who is literally the worst defensive player in the league, but Kyrie is a terrible defender in his own right. Thomas is a legitimate scorer who is only slightly less efficient than Irving.

Key to the deal is Crowder, who is a good enough defender to take the primary scorer, resting LeBron. That, along with a 2018 first from the Nets that is unprotected (and likely a top-5 pick) is a hell of a haul for a guy that everyone knew wanted out.

Now Irving can fulfill his destiny of being a miniature Dominique Wilkins.

Your basketball takes are just as bad as your Alex Smith takes.

Fair trade for both teams. Celtics get their "star." Cavs get players to help LeBron this season, plus they get a good shot at Michael Porter or Bagley in their post LeBron rebuild. Win for both teams.

The 2018 Nets pick too? LMAO

Horrific deal for the Celtics. They just got worse now and in the future for what may not even be a upgrade at PG (Kyrie remains the most overrated player in the league, a complete ISO player offensively who doesn't play defense). I have no idea why Ainge felt compelled to bail the Cavs out here after all these years of hoarding assets, they did not have to make this move.

I can't believe Boston gave up that pick. Gives Cleveland a ton of flexibility. They can try to build around LeBron, or if he leaves, they can just tank and have a lottery pick to start it all off.

What makes it a win for the Celtics? LeBron is going to beat them easily this year. After he leaves for the Lakers in 2018, they still would have been the best team in the conference (with or without Kyrie) but now they'll do it without Porter or Bagley. They'll almost certainly never have enough pieces to win a championship now. What is the point of this?

IT was even more efficient than Kyrie last year. Of course, that was probably a career year and IT has choked repeatedly in the playoffs, but I don't think the difference between these two players merited this package.

Seems like a pretty fair trade. Tough to give up that nets pick though.

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Have you ever been right about anything

Failing to see how this is a good trade for Boston.

great take, per usual.

I actually think the Cavs get better and will still come out of the East, so if the point for Boston was to beat the Cavs, they just failed miserably.


IT/Lebron/Crowder/Love/TT is a good unit, you can now play small with Love or TT at the 5 and slide Crowder to the 4 and have a combo of IT, JR, Korver and Lebron all on the floor.

Crowder is the A+ defender Lebron has needed since Miami. Could get him over the hump next year a compete a little better.

Boston says thanks for your service IT, Avery Bradley, Jae Crowder but you're all expendable. Has to be a kick in the ass for all of them because Boston was the pits until they helped turn it around.

Also, what if this move is a deciding factor in LeBron staying in Cleveland? It's unlikely but they at least have an argument next offseason now and good pieces to sell him on. Boston might never even be the best team in the East for any period of time if that happens.

What an utter fail by Ainge.

If Lebron stays that pick surely gets moved again right? His window isn't going to stay open forever

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Great haul for Cleveland especially considering the circumstances.

Now Wiggins want out of Minnesota? The soap opera never ends lol


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I got bad info it appears as I'm reading Wiggins just cut ties with his agent. Not quite the same.

I agree it's an utter fail. I don't see LeBron committing to a Dan Gilbert team ever again though. I think he's gone, and they've set themselves up to max IT and have a top 3 pick next year to start the re-tool.

IT, Love, Crowder and a top 3 pick should be good enough for a guaranteed 5 seed in the East.

Yeah, I think LeBron is gone too. But there is at least something to sell him on now where there wasn't before.

If LeBron goes, it is also possible that they just let IT go and completely rebuild with the Nets pick. Plenty of options now thanks to Ainge.

Ainge gifted his only competition in the East a present and a future.

he sat on that Brooklyn pick and refused to use it in trades for other players and he gift wraps it to the Cavs lol

Ainge always seems to go overboard and add something he didn't need to add. Did he really need to trade the nets pick unprotected to get the deal done?
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Shit, I thought this was bad even before I heard definitively it was the Nets pick (which is by far the most valuable part of the trade for the Cavs). How do you not trade for Butler (for a considerably lesser package) and do this instead? LMAO

does IT come off the bench for the Cavs? No way him and Rose can share a backcourt right?

Derrick Rose is terrible, so I can't see it. But it is difficult to play IT at the end of games because of what a horrible defender he is, so Rose might be out there then.

Pretty sure I called you a piece of s**t in one of my posts. Clearly I was right about that at least.

I had no idea the Cavs were getting the 2018 Nets Pick and Jae Crowder. That changes things. Looks like a good trade for the Cavs and a bad one for the Celtics as of right now.

We'll see if Irving is ready to take over and be the man now that he isn't playing with the selfish ego-maniac LeBron... I'm guessing that is what Ainge is banking on.

Selfish ego maniac Lebron is the only reason why Irving has won jack ****ing shit in his pro career.

To start with, no body should bitch about player loyalty any longer when teams don't show loyalty to players that give everything.

As far as the trade goes, IMHO this comes down to if you think Kyrie is worth a Top 5 pick. :shrug: IT is most likely a 1 year rental, Crowder is a good player but the pick is probably the most important part because Lebron probably isn't coming back. Of course this trade could be a big bust for Cleveland if the Nets end up making the playoffs this year or close enough to blow the pick up. The East is so bad and teams like the Pacers, Bulls, Magic, and Hawks more than likely end up worse or because they are tanking.

As far as this season goes does this help the Cavs beat GSW? Definitely no IMHO.

Here come the LeBronies...

Look if LeBron was such a great teammate I don't think Kyrie would want to leave. Granted I called Kyrie a crybaby not too long ago but lets be real here. LeBron clearly chased Kyrie away.

Don't be surprised if the Celtics beat the overrated Cavs in the ECF next season with Kyrie being the MVP. Kyrie is going to want to prove ppl who say he can't be the man on a team wrong and he is going to play with a fire not seen in him before.

Celtics vs Spurs or Warriors (more than likely the Warriors) in next years finals.

Tim Duncan played with the Spurs his whole career and the Spurs overpaid him in his last contract. Loyalty still exists Le3-5finalsrecord just doesn't know anything about that!

Somehow I don't see a Nets team that won 20 games last year making the playoffs after an offseason in which they just traded their best player away (Brook Lopez). They are going to suck.

Nobody is beating the Warriors any time soon. That wasn't going to change this offseason no matter what anybody did.

You mean like 2 hours ago?

I'm a Timberwolves fan, you dork.

Sorry to hear that man.

Yes. Doesn't change the fact LeBron chased Irving away.

Thomas is 29, coming off a hip issue, with his entire game is based on speed, is in the last year of his contract, and is expecting/wanting a Max contract. Irving is 25.

Crowder was getting crowded out at the wing with teh Celtics recent draft picks/acquisition. Easy give for the C's.

The only asset the C's gave that hurt is the unprotected Nets 1, which isn't looking like the top overall pick anymore. The C's also have numerous other high draft picks in the next 2 years. Can't just stockpile more and more assets in teh NBA. Need megastars to compete for championships.

The Nets roster though is better than most of the other teams I listed and they aren't in tanking mode. The East is so bad they could win quite a few games.

None of the other guys in the discussion help as much as Irving, I don't think.

Irving is 25. Tatum is, whatever, 19. Jaylen Brown is 20. Haywood 27. Marcus Smart 23. C's still have multiple first round picks from other teams.

Good freaking post!

Yup. I am interested to hear if IT passes his physical. There is alot of speculation out there right now that he isn't healthy and Ainge hinted at that tonight in an interview.

Yes, I understand that side of it. Doesn't mean it's any kind of real upgrade at PG for the Celtics or that their franchise's trajectory has changed in any real way both now and in the future by making this move. If LeBron actually stays as a result of it, it could also really hurt them.

Agreed. And they gave him to their main competition in the East, a team that has badly needed a player like Crowder for years. Not exactly ideal.

It isn't? The Nets are going to be hilariously bad once again.


Exactly. Which is why waiting all this time just to trade for Kyrie (who isn't even a top 25 player in the league and almost certainly never will be with his major flaws) while trading away a top 3 pick (a player who could potentially be a megastar) is so senseless.

For those who REALLY care, here are the stupid-complicated Celtics draft picks in future years:

Cleveland should take the deal even if IT doesn't pass. It is that one-sided.

Jeremy Lin, D'Angelo Russell, Demarre Carroll, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson, and Timothy Mozgov is not better than most of those teams. If Russell doesn't take a step forward in his 3rd year, it's one of the worst lineups in years in the NBA.

I will say this -- Ainge built a championship team, then saw his players age, and built a team that went to the Conference finals a few years later, and has amassed an amazing, AMAZING amount of assets.

And now everyone wants to knock him for a trade as if he's some clueless idiot. I think he's earned WAY more latitude than that. Time will tell, but I have no problem at all with this trade. Literally the only piece that cost the Celtics anythign they truly cared about is the Nets pick, and from what I'm hearing, it's far less certain that it's a top 3 or whatever pick.

Why is why I stated this trade comes down to if you believe a proven KI is worth a Top 5 pick that is an unproven. Just like in the NFL there is alot of high NBA draft picks that never do shit.

And then he used that collection of assets he amassed to bail the Cavs out from a shit situation where they had absolutely no leverage while not improving his team in the short or long term at all.

LeBron will continue to beat the Celtics every year he stays in the East (which could be a lot longer now that the Celtics made this deal). There is no real upside here.

Go look at the Bulls roster (without Wade), the Hawks and Magic roster and then let's talk. I am not saying the Nets will be good just they may win more games just because the East IS THAT BAD. Someone has to win those turd fests games. :D

By your logic, there is no upside to any deal the Celtics do then.

Look, maybe that Nets pick turns into the next Michael Jordan, but there is a ton of uncertainty around it. Where will the pick end up? Who will be available when the pick is made? Will that guy actually turn into a star?

Sure, it's a potentially very valuable piece, but you can't bank on it. Armchair GMs always, ALWAYS overvalue draft picks. The bust rate is high in all sports.

And beyond the pick, it's a better player who is 25 whose rights are controlled for two years versus a wing the Cs didn't need, a center with some promise, and a 29 year old under control for one year who just had a career year.

Brooklyn and Orlando have the lowest odds in the league (500:1) of winning the title this year for a reason. And I think I'm still taking Payton, Fournier, Ross, Gordon, and Vucevic over the Nets if Russell doesn't progress at all.

It's going to be a really high pick.

it maybe but if they draft a bust it doesn't matter now does it? Time will tell who got the better of this trade but to say the Cavs did for sure is not being fair.

Except they could have beaten LeBron this year had they made the Butler trade and still kept the Nets pick for the long-term (or traded it later as part of a package for an actual superstar, not a flawed, one dimensional overrated one). This doesn't improve them in 2017-2018 or the future and makes the Cavs (their main competition in the conference) better in both regards.

You said the Cavs made a good trade and the Celtics made a bad trade a hour ago.

I changed my mind after reading Amnorix's posts. He made a lot of good points. So what?

Which actual superstar would that be? If Anthony Davis was on the block, sure! But that doesn't seem to be happening.

Bottom line -- I trust Danny. I think he's MORE than earned that.

I don't think trading for Butler or George would have gotten them past Lebron this year especially since they don't know the health of IT.

AD is exactly who I would have been waiting for. Kyrie Irving simply isn't that good of a player and won't change anything for that team this year or in the future.

I'm not a Celtics fan, I don't care whether you trust him or not. I just call a terrible deal when I see one and this one couldn't get much worse. I've been trying to rationalize as you have and I still can't do it.