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DJ's left nut 01-03-2023 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chiefzilla1501 (Post 16707412)
I’m not talking just about 50/50 balls. It’s also adjusting to the ball in the air and I know you can’t possibly be defending Mvs as a weapon. I know you’re not suggesting Watson is a weapon. We know you’re not high on juju. Mahomes is doing this in spite of hit WRs not because of them.

Mvs had multiple opportunities just in the Denver game where he was caught sitting on a ball instead of attacking it. If I remember one was easily catchable and the other almost led to an INT.
No I am not.

But it's not because he isn't the person you're describing - it's because he's EXACTLY the person you're describing and I simply don't have much use for that style of player.

I've said literally dozens of times w/r/t to JJSS that I have no specific problems with JJSS as a player - it's that I don't put much value on players that play like he does. Which is to say, I see little utility in a poverty Irvin.

My point is that when you turn the knob down from HOF caliber on players like that, JJSS and other fairly fungible guys are EXACTLY what you're looking at.

ToxSocks 01-03-2023 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16707418)

My point is that when you turn the knob down from HOF caliber on players like that, JJSS and other fairly fungible guys are EXACTLY what you're looking at.
I think there's a nice, fat, meaty bevy of players that fall between JJSS and Michael Irvin. I was "banging the table" (**** i hate that expression) for DJ Chark too. I wanted a trade for Metcalf bad. My love for Pickens is no secret.

I've been so entrenched on this position group for the past year because i feel like they're just one real perimeter threat away from reaching their true potential. ESPECIALLY with the emergence of Pacheco, the TE group and the addition of Toney.

No, DJ Chark isn't a super star. But damn if that's not the type of guy you take a flier on with that speed and that frame.

I believe you need a true man beater on the outside to really open things up for everyone else.

You can leave JJSS on an island with your top corner (or hell, even your #2) and feel pretty good about it as a DC.

To me, that's a problem.

ToxSocks 01-03-2023 05:45 PM
Also, i'm not looking for Michael Irvin. Was never a fan of his game and i don't think his game translates to 2022 NFL football.

If i'm picking an old school, big bodied HOF NFL WR to label as my prototype, it'd be Terrell Owens.

But again, the size isn't as important to me as overall athleticism and natural pass catching ability.

O.city 01-03-2023 06:01 PM
FYI, running hard on a double move and the ball being underthrow isn’t “not attacking the ball”

Megatron96 01-03-2023 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16707533)
FYI, running hard on a double move and the ball being underthrow isn’t “not attacking the ball”
I don't think anyone's thinking about just that one play. Though he could've at least gone up and tried to get that ball. Stopping and waiting on it when the Db was obviously going to be right there when it came down is not the best use of his stature.

But MVS hasn't really battled for too many 50/50 balls this season. None that I can remember anyway, but I missed a couple games.

RunKC 01-03-2023 06:20 PM
Yeah I think it’s more than fair to say that MVS has been the most disappointing player this year. His drops are really annoying and it seems like he just disappears for long stretches.

But his speed helps guys get open which is why I don’t advocate for getting rid of both him and Hardman.

Not sure what you do there but I really want us to get multiple WR’s in the first 4 rds that have 4.3 to low 4.4 range speed

ToxSocks 01-03-2023 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16707552)
I don't think anyone's thinking about just that one play. Though he could've at least gone up and tried to get that ball. Stopping and waiting on it when the Db was obviously going to be right there when it came down is not the best use of his stature.

But MVS hasn't really battled for too many 50/50 balls this season. None that I can remember anyway, but I missed a couple games.
He had a pretty slick one-hander earlier this year.

And that diving TD a few weeks ago was pretty sweet.

He's had more highlight reel-esque plays than JuJu has had. MVS just hasn't had the luxury of being the "Sit down on a 5 yard curl while Kelce draws the coverage away" guy like JJSS.

And unlike JJSS, he actually gets open downfield.

/shrug.

I guess im a little higher on MVS as i think he actually has a defined skill other than catching 5-10 yard routes underneath.

ToxSocks 01-03-2023 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RunKC (Post 16707597)
His drops are really annoying and it seems like he just disappears for long stretches.
Yeah his hands are shaky.

But i mean, none of our receivers have been immune to disappearing for long stretches.

Thank god for our TE's and backs. McKinnon's YAC ability has been a godsend.

Megatron96 01-03-2023 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Detoxing (Post 16707640)
He had a pretty slick one-hander earlier this year.

And that diving TD a few weeks ago was pretty sweet.

He's had more highlight reel-esque plays than JuJu has had. MVS just hasn't had the luxury of being the "Sit down on a 5 yard curl while Kelce draws the coverage away" guy like JJSS.

And unlike JJSS, he actually gets open downfield.

/shrug.

I guess im a little higher on MVS as i think he actually has a defined skill other than catching 5-10 yard routes underneath.
He has, no argument.

But he's also just dropped a pile of passes, and he hasn't been in sync with Pat with any consistency at all. And in a few games we've seen him just not jump up for a ball, and have it batted away. And I'm not talking about really tough palls, that only a Justin Jefferson could come down with, I'm talking about relatively simple back shoulder type stuff. i mean, I get he isn't an elite ball-snatcher, but how about just try and see what happens?

meh, i'm going to get heated about this if i keep thinking about it, and there's nothing that can be done about it. hopefully he come up with some big grabs in the postseason. That'll make everything worth it.

-King- 01-03-2023 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16707403)
But MVS has an average depth of target of about 15 yards/throw.

For perspective, JJSS is less than half that at 7 yards/throw. So throw MVS 100 balls and have him catch 55 of them 15 yards downfield and you're gonna get more total yards than JJSS catching his balls 7 yards downfield 100% of the time.

Yes, there are YAC considerations that can tighten that up, but the point remains that the degree of difficulty on downfield throws/catches is exponentially higher.

If you look at guys with ADOTs over 14 Yards, there are precious few with catch rates over 60%.

DeVante Parker (fairly small sample size)
Jahan Dotson
Chris Olave
George Pickens (oof)
Mike Evans

That's it. That's the list.

No, MVS doesn't have a stellar catch% at 55.7% but he's right there with other high volume deep threats like Gabriel Davis (54.2).

An interesting name on that list, though - DJ Chark. 57.4% with an average depth of target of 16.7 yards. That's some pretty damn efficient production right there though he's done it over a smaller sample size due to injury.

I'm still awfully intrigued by that kid.
I get it. But it's not like MVS really gives us those big plays like Gabriel does so the trade off isn't really there. Gabriel has more touchdowns in his 3 yr career than MVS does in his 6 year career.

He's giving us what Chark gives Detroit except Chark did it with 250 less snaps and a worse QB and coach.

chiefzilla1501 01-03-2023 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16707418)
No I am not.

But it's not because he isn't the person you're describing - it's because he's EXACTLY the person you're describing and I simply don't have much use for that style of player.

I've said literally dozens of times w/r/t to JJSS that I have no specific problems with JJSS as a player - it's that I don't put much value on players that play like he does. Which is to say, I see little utility in a poverty Irvin.

My point is that when you turn the knob down from HOF caliber on players like that, JJSS and other fairly fungible guys are EXACTLY what you're looking at.
Almost every guy I’ve talked about is a WR1.

How is that remotely close to JJss who is a pure slot possession WR? I’ve said repeatedly I don’t want a big guy at the expense of speed and athleticism

No I don’t think we need an elite wr1 because I don’t think we can afford it. Which is why I’ve been talking more on the dj moore or terry mclaurin level.

O.city 01-03-2023 08:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16707552)
I don't think anyone's thinking about just that one play. Though he could've at least gone up and tried to get that ball. Stopping and waiting on it when the Db was obviously going to be right there when it came down is not the best use of his stature.

But MVS hasn't really battled for too many 50/50 balls this season. None that I can remember anyway, but I missed a couple games.
Run full speed , stop, come back, jump on an ball underthrow by 10 yards.

O.city 01-03-2023 08:40 PM
Mvs is here to run the deep overs and such. Keep safeties Honest

I know it’s slander around these parts but Mahomes has and continues to struggle with the deep ball.

ShortRoundChief 01-03-2023 08:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16707878)
Mvs is here to run the deep overs and such. Keep safeties Honest

I know it’s slander around these parts but Mahomes has and continues to struggle with the deep ball.
MVS=Metacarpals Very Slippery

He didn't need to get the Covid vaccine cause he can't catch shit.

He reminds me of Orlando Jones' character in The Replacements. Great speed, no hands.

Megatron96 01-03-2023 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16707869)
Run full speed , stop, come back, jump on an ball underthrow by 10 yards.
Skip the ’come back’ part. Again, I’m not asking him to do amazing things. He was already basically stopped; just jump, and turn towards the ball.


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