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ThyKingdomCome15 03-21-2023 10:53 AM
-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. Clearly he's not who he once was.

Mecca 03-21-2023 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superturtle (Post 16867330)
Toney had 12 regular season games total as a member of the NYG and immediately contributed heavily once he got here.
I don't think a single person has an issue with Toney when he's on the field, it's the can't stay on the field issue that makes him impossible to rely upon.

Mecca 03-21-2023 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome15 (Post 16867334)
-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. Clearly he's not who he once was.
But you know what fits the model, going into the season with a shit show at WR right?

Sassy Squatch 03-21-2023 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecca (Post 16867336)
I don't think a single person has an issue with Toney when he's on the field, it's the can't stay on the field issue that makes him impossible to rely upon.
It's more further disproving the point that rookie WRs won't be productive here. They absolutely can be.

FloridaMan88 03-21-2023 10:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome15 (Post 16867334)
-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. Other teams can easily offer more.
He missed most of those games last year due to a suspension for PED's, not an injury.

Also the Chiefs have successfully signed/traded for DE's who were over 30 during the past few years... Ingram and Dunlap... no reason they can't do the same with a WR who is 30 years old.

Mecca 03-21-2023 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superturtle (Post 16867342)
It's more further disproving the point that rookie WRs won't be productive here. They absolutely can be.
Oh yea, especially now because well there's nothing blocking them. If this team doesn't move on a vet WR I'd place the odds on a rookie WR getting a ton of snaps pretty high.

Megatron96 03-21-2023 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16867314)
Would you put Hopkins in the 'all time great' camp?

Because for many of those guys, they became all time greats by VIRTUE of their performance in their 30s. It's a self-selecting group; it's how they accumulated those numbers - by simply continuing to play at a very high level for another 3-4 years into their 30s.

For example, at 29 Chad Johnson looked for all the world like an 'all-time great' and then...wasn't. Nobody considers Roddy White an 'all time great' but through his late 20s he put up 6 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons and averaged almost 1,300 yards/season over that span.

He plays 3-4 more years at that level and his numbers land him in the top 15-20 of all time. But he didn't. He isn't considered an 'all time great' BECAUSE his didn't perform into his mid 30s.

Playing well into their mid-30s is what makes the majority of these guys fall into 'all-time great' status with notable exceptions like Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson who took the Sandy Koufax/Pedro Martinez route and were just so damn dominant in their primes that they didn't need longevity.

I don't think Hopkins falls into that latter category and I don't see anything to confidently state he'd qualify for the former.

.
I would say he's an all-time great. The greatest ever, maybe not. But in the conversation for top -10 all-time? Just look at the list of QBs he's had to deal with, and he still posted six 1,000+ yard seasons, and another that was 40 yards short of 1,000 yards, with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage as his QBs.

Give me another example of an all-time great WR that has had a worse group of passers to contend with, because I honestly can't think of one. And coaching. Holy Mother of God.

How many great WRs would do as well as Deandre, much less better, given the QBs and HCs/OCs that he's carried in his career?

He's been elite, in spite of his QBs and coaches, and unlike most great WRs, he's had to do it almost entirely by himself.

ToxSocks 03-21-2023 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome15 (Post 16867334)
-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. We'll see how the ball moves as we get closer to the draft.
Trying to predict Veach's moves is the thing, but some of ya'll have to understand that "talented" fits the profile of what Veach likes.

If the player is talented, Veach probably has interest. But Veach def strikes me as a "this is the value i place on you, otherwise kick rocks" guy.

He's not blind to talent. But he's not going to exceed what he believes he can reasonably afford to spend on that talent.

So we gotta stop with the "he's too old, he plays 'this' position, he's too often injured etc etc".

None of that actually fits Veach's pattern.

Now, those things play a role in determining a player's value, but if the player is willing to play for Veach's assigned value and he's talented, then we have a match.

THAT'S the pattern that's developed over the years.

Not this, "He's too old, he's too slow, he plays this position therefore.." shit. That aint it. He ain't ruling dudes out because of age or 40 times etc. Can they play? And will they play for what we want to pay? Those are the questions you should be asking.

DJ's left nut 03-21-2023 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superturtle (Post 16867342)
It's more further disproving the point that rookie WRs won't be productive here. They absolutely can be.
Yeah - I feel like we've played this game already a few times and that dog just don't hunt, IMO.

If you show out, you'll perform here. Those that don't, won't.

And yes, rookies CAN be productive under Andy Reid and oftentimes have been.

Rainbarrel 03-21-2023 11:07 AM
The Von Miller move Buffalo II

chiefforlife 03-21-2023 11:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16867348)
I would say he's an all-time great. The greatest ever, maybe not. But in the conversation for top -10 all-time? Just look at the list of QBs he's had to deal with, and he still posted six 1,000+ yard seasons, and another that was 40 yards short of 1,000 yards, with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage as his QBs.

Give me another example of an all-time great WR that has had a worse group of passers to contend with, because I honestly can't think of one. And coaching. Holy Mother of God.

How many great WRs would do as well as Deandre, much less better, given the QBs and HCs/OCs that he's carried in his career?

He's been elite, in spite of his QBs and coaches, and unlike most great WRs, he's had to do it almost entirely by himself.
Closest comparison I can think of is Tony Gonzalez. Consistently producing with crappy QBs and Crappy coaches.

Very difficult to do and certainly should be considered when having the greatest of all time discussion.

DJ's left nut 03-21-2023 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megatron96 (Post 16867348)
I would say he's an all-time great. The greatest ever, maybe not. But in the conversation for top -10 all-time? Just look at the list of QBs he's had to deal with, and he still posted six 1,000+ yard seasons, and another that was 40 yards short of 1,000 yards, with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage as his QBs.

Give me another example of an all-time great WR that has had a worse group of passers to contend with, because I honestly can't think of one. And coaching. Holy Mother of God.

How many great WRs would do as well as Deandre, much less better, given the QBs and HCs/OCs that he's carried in his career?

He's been elite, in spite of his QBs and coaches, and unlike most great WRs, he's had to do it almost entirely by himself.
I don't remember when/why I went down this rabbithole a few years back, but the bottom line was that Hopkins numbers didn't improve markedly when he went from Hoyer/Mallet to Watson. '14-'15 was virtually identical to '18-'19 for him. And likely would've been better but/for Andre Johnson getting a massive target share in '14.

And as I noted then, that's often the case for possession receivers. They don't need brilliant QB play to fight off someone for the ball. In fact, oftentimes the opposite is true and better QB play negatively impacts their numbers as they aren't having passes forced to them in traffic.

I mean if you truly think that Hopkins will age like some of the all-time superstar receivers did, you should really have no problem taking on that $20 million figure this season, extending him AND giving up a 2nd for him. But I don't think you actually feel like that's the case.

There's a disconnect between "I'd give a 3 and restructure his deal" and "He's going to age like Jerry Rice..."

ForeverIowan 03-21-2023 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16867314)
Would you put Hopkins in the 'all time great' camp?

Because for many of those guys, they became all time greats by VIRTUE of their performance in their 30s. It's a self-selecting group; it's how they accumulated those numbers - by simply continuing to play at a very high level for another 3-4 years into their 30s.

For example, at 29 Chad Johnson looked for all the world like an 'all-time great' and then...wasn't. Nobody considers Roddy White an 'all time great' but through his late 20s he put up 6 consecutive 1,000 yard seasons and averaged almost 1,300 yards/season over that span.

He plays 3-4 more years at that level and his numbers land him in the top 15-20 of all time. But he didn't. He isn't considered an 'all time great' BECAUSE his didn't perform into his mid 30s.

Playing well into their mid-30s is what makes the majority of these guys fall into 'all-time great' status with notable exceptions like Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson who took the Sandy Koufax/Pedro Martinez route and were just so damn dominant in their primes that they didn't need longevity.

I don't think Hopkins falls into that latter category and I don't see anything to confidently state he'd qualify for the former.

And again - I'm offering him $15 million/season here; i'm not saying he'll suck. But I think I'm pricing in the risk of collapse into my offer.

Fair points. Take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson and tell me who had better career stats at the age of 30 though. I would bet a lot of money you'd have a hard time putting together a list of more than 3 or 4 receivers. Hopkins has spent the entirety of his career playing in dysfunctional organizations as well. He hasn't played with all time great quarterbacks and high flying offenses.

DJ's left nut 03-21-2023 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForeverIowan (Post 16867374)
Fair points. Take away Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Calvin Johnson and tell me who had better career stats at the age of 30 though. I would bet a lot of money you'd have a hard time putting together a list of more than 3 or 4 receivers. Hopkins has spent the entirety of his career playing in dysfunctional organizations as well. He hasn't played with all time great quarterbacks and high flying offenses.
No question - and that's the only reason I'd be willing to give him $15 million/yr to begin with. Again, I'm not saying he'll suck, I'm simply pricing risk into the equation.

I'm not saying he CAN'T get himself into that group. I'm simply saying I wouldn't call it a given. There's a pretty long list of guys who perhaps weren't quite as good as Hopkins was early on and hit a wall at/near 30 years old. And a fair number who WERE as good as D-Hop.

You have plenty of Calvin Johnson, AJ Green, Michael Thomas examples out there. But maybe Nuke is Andre Johnson? Maybe he plays like a superstar through 32 after appearing to plateau a bit at 30.

I'm willing to take a reasonable gamble on that possibility - but I ain't betting the farm on it.

BleedingRed 03-21-2023 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThyKingdomCome15 (Post 16867334)
-30 years old
-Missed seven games last year
-Bloated contract
-Requires giving up a solid mid-round selection

This does not fit the profile of guys Veach likes to trade for. I'm not buying it unless ARZ absorbs a nice chunk of that contract. Clearly he's not who he once was.
Can you explain how a mid round selection is solid....


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