Upgrading the offensive line (...or not?)
 

Due to the nature of large threads, several days ago the Spagnuolo thread kind of veered off for awhile into a discussion about offensive line. I thought an interesting conversation got going while we were on the subject of drafting/developing players cheaply when we Mahomes eventually needs to get paid and how we can get a head start on gaining some of that flexibility.

These are the Chiefs OL who are 2019 free agents:

Mitch Morse
Jordan Devey
Jeff Allen

If we just let them walk, we'd be left with:

Austin Reiter
Jimmy Murray
Kahlil McKenzie
Andrew Wylie
Eric Fisher
Mitch Schwartz
Cam Erving
LDT

Plus the following dudes from the practice squad if you want to be "official":

Ryan Hunter
Pace Murphy

How much investment in OL do you think is optimal? Are you satisfied with the developmental guys on the roster, or would you go so far to use even a 2nd rounder to replace Morse? Would you take it a step further and also invest in finding a better LG or even backup OT?

The line will probably look like

LT Fisher
LG Wylie
C Reiter
RG LDT
RT Schwartz

I think we need to upgrade G and Center (Morse won't be back.)

Good news is we can find a respectable starter in the 3rd round or later...

I hope we draft a C in the 2cd or 3rd this year. I also wouldn't be surprised if they have Devey a minimum deal.

Reiter will be the Center. He was damn good when Morse was out

I think either a veteran FA or a draft pick comes in to compete for the starting Center job. The brass likes Morse, but sadly he is not durable. I’d be surprised if he is retained. The Reiter contract was a reward for yeoman’s duty, but I think they see him like they saw Erving in 2017 - your swing guy who can fill in at G/C in a pinch.

I think the chiefs have shown that they can develop lower round guys in the middle and mid round etc. to play

I wouldn’t be upset at an OT for depth somewhere

But I have talked myself out of an early pick on the ol I think

Need a new LT

I'd bet DeVey comes back.

After securing a corner/linebacker/safety in this draft, I wouldn't be mad if they threw every other draft pick at an offensive lineman. Solidify the protection in front of Mahomes.

Agree that Devey is coming back, I also think the throw a later round pick at a tackle or C. I think they have high hopes for Mackenzie at G.

Great topic for discussion, it's an issue I vacillate on quite a bit

Not too long ago I was calling for a high pick on a new center, but these days it feels like Reiter would be serviceable

Also wanted to upgrade Erving, even though he was a pleasant surprise... yet lately I'm wondering what steps McKenzie has taken in his growth

As it stands right now, I'd be ok just keeping Devey as depth and spending a 4-5 on a raw but talented LT project... we seem to have a nice stable of guys on the interior, but tackle not so much

We put up a lot of points on an extremely well coached pats D with what's already in the cupboard, so I see no reason to spend big at the grocery store this year

Just fix this goddamn defense

We need some OL. Mahomes ran fir his life way too much.

Reiter and Wylie are trash

You’ve gotta develop some guys in the cheap and make due. It’s jut part of it.

Wylie was a beast with LDT out and Reiter fit in really well when Morse was out

Any hope for Kahil McKenzie?

Its a good thing Mahomes can make Eric Fisher look like a pro bowler

I’d feel better about it if Andy Heck was replaced. O line never seems to be consistent.

Need a replacement for our "pro bowl" LT

Heck is pretty good guys. They’ve developed some really good ol.

Just keep drafting and developing thetr. I wouldn’t be opposed with using one of those 2nds in a center

The players on the O line are either talented or theyre not. The O line coach isnt going to make too much of a difference. KC sure loves it scapegoats.

Good lord yes, Mahomes was pretty much a pro bowl QB and LT. Its so crazy how much better a QB with good pocket presence can make an O-line look. This years Oline looked like a top 10-15 unit and last year they looked like a bottom 5 unit.

I remember trufans loved to talk about how bad the line was and that Alex would throw it deep if the line would just give him a little more time!

Honestly, yes.

That said we both know they're keeping him.

If we could draft a LT and move Fisher to G I'd be ok with that but I don't think he can play G. I don't think he's strong enough or have enough lead in his ass...

Heck is definitely not as bad as some say around here. Erving, Reiter and Wylie all have improved while here all were either a disaster or very meh before their arrival here.

Fisher at G, lol

The three positions to the left of LDT could stand improvement. They have too many holes on D to upgrade the LT with an early pick, but I do think targeting a swing tackle and G are important.

Exactly.

True, if they spent a two on a C no one would be mad

I fully expect a 5th or 6th be used on OL but I don't expect much more than that unless they aren't happy enough with Wylie at LG. I think they'll take a swing type guy like Bailey from SC that can play RT or OG. I'm thinking Hunter and Murray make the team this year and Murray at least spent time on the 53. I was thinking Hunter did too at one point but probably wrong there.

Natural leverage and strength are his main problem. At this point, I don't think there is much hope that he will improve beyond what he is now. Although he's not as bad as some people say. He's just not elite.

Khalil McKenzie may get his shot at the interior line in the near future. ****, he made the final 53

It’s a good thing breathing is natural, otherwise you’d be dead. Mahomes does need a little better protection , he made that line better than they are

Reiter and Wylie are fine. Morse is soft, especially in the run. And he can't stay healthy.

Jimmy/James Murray has some promise. In the little 2017 Holy Cross video that is available, he looked like a man playing football against boys, but that was against lesser competition. In preseason I wanted to see more of him but he got hurt and we did not get to see that much of him. In his limited play he must have made enough of an impression that he made the practice squad. I am hoping that he really comes on during the offseason and we see him battling with Austin Reiter for the center position.

We need a lineman that can come in and play LT or RT if KC needs.

For 2018 Cam Erving was the backup at LT and Andrew Wylie was the backup at RT. Not sure how that would go but I don't want to see.

Erving could still be the backup at LT and Wylie the backup at RT...Wylie will not be starting so.....

Depends on what they do w/ Morse. Personally I'd like to see the guy walk only because he can't stay healthy and he's 1 hit in the dome away from being scrambled eggs. But if they were to keep him, the interior line is set. It's depth at OT that I'm most worried about. Erving can play tackle, but not very well.

They need to let him walk because he isn't worth the $.

I know its true and all, but this is said about him every year the last couple of years and every year he takes a hit to the dome. The guy needs to call it quits before he gets completely ****ed in the head. Maybe sign the biggest deal he can in the offseason and then just act like he cant play during the season and collect that check!

So looking back on the last 2 years you think our O line has been stellar? I’ve seen Pat running for his life for a good part of the year. Is that part of his game?? Sure, but he’d surely do event better with better protection. Scapegoat?? Yeah I guess our offensive line getting beat by the better teams in the league shouldn’t be too worrisome considering we have a once in a lifetime qb behind center. Let’s keep going with the same guy who hasn’t shown me that he can consistently push the line to the next level.

So are you saying we need to replace a good part of the line, because Andy ****ing Heck is doing an admirable job??

Dump Heck and try to steal New England’s o-line Coach Or pick up the Indy O-line coach. That’ll be a start. Heck has been able to develop players but the overall performance just hasn’t been good since he’s been here.

Yeah that Oline was so trash this year that they allowed their QB to throw 50 TD- 5000 yards, be MVP and were part of a historically good offense.

Get a clue.

They just need to keep investing in that Oline.

I would like a center in the 2nd or 3rd round.

He wasn’t good in pass pro.

To be expected. Pass Pro is the hardest part of the O-line and he came in mid-season.....cut him some slack

I was expecting the Chiefs to make a run at DeGuglielmo. I'm surprised he hasn't found a job yet.

This. Everything between LDT and Fisher is suspect.

Agree w/ the first part.

2nd part however...meh. Would like to see Chiefs draft defense with their first 4 picks...5 if they decide to tag/trade Ford assuming they'd get a 2/3 out of the guy.

Backup interior OL guys did a fine job this year for the most part.

^^^ I couldn't agree more. He took a lot of big hits that would have been roughing the passer if it was Brady.

Morse will be out of the league in a few years. How many concussions has he had?

This right here is HUGE going forward if we are to compete for a SB every year going forward. Keeping Pat upright and healthy. :thumb:

I've never been satisfied with our o-line's lack of physicality when we needed it most since AR has been here.:shrug: We have always struggled against good physical d-lines not being able to run/protect. The Ravens,Titans,Pats and Steelers have spanked us. And mind you in our own house with the Titans doing it 2wice and 3 of the 4 I mentioned here in the playoffs.:shake:

I like Reiter and Wylie. They are nasty and athletic.

Morse is too undersized and soft thus gets pushed around and his time is done here.

Fisher is just average at best for the $$ he makes and pulls boners at the wrong time of the game. It is easy to get into his head thus loses confidence against better pass rushers. Need to start looking for his replacement.

LDT waaaay over paid and starting to become soft. Not the road grader he should be. Need to start looking for his replacement.

Schwartz is an over achiever with limited athletic ability/strength. He wins most of his battles but against elite rushers he struggles. We need to start looking for his replacement.

For all of us making fun of Cam's hideous pre-season play looking like a turnstile he surprisingly came around to some degree as the season went on before and after his injury. I can see now what Veach saw in him. However for as athletic as he can be he gets ADD really quickly and gets beat at the most crucial times and is not as physical as he could be. Still in development I get that but if he doesn't significantly improve this next year I say start looking for his replacement.

For me right now I only see Reiter and Wylie as our solid starters in the future and maybe Erving IF he continues to improve. Now with that said, I don't know IF what we have in the "depth bucket of devlopment"(practice squad and backups) that could possibly develop into nasty athletic starters. :shrug:

Excellent thread topic SNR !!:clap:

:BS:

I assure you Reiter and Wylie will be starters this next year.;)

Devey will be the swing while Reiter and Wylie start IMHO.

Are you serious? :eek:

We have so many holes on defense and your second round pick is a fat whitey center?

We can get a good center in the 4th or 5th round at the very least

It's clear you do not have "football eyes".:rolleyes:

Unless Mahomes has something to say to Reid about the subject, I doubt they'll spend much capitol on the O-line this year. Not saying they shouldn't but as others have said, it was enough to get the job done and post historic numbers.

You're pimping the weakest section of the line.

Would a black center be any better???

Well this is what we really don't know is how Reid/Veach/and now Spags see our immediate needs and development of our young talent now on both sides of the ball and how they will proceed. On the surface and to your point our D is a sieve and we have big needs HOWEVER, we don't go anywhere with our franchise QB injured either. Think about it we damn near made it to the SB with a 31st ranked defense and should have gone anyhow IF Ford doesn't pull his ADD stunt. Yes defensively we need fixed BUT you also protect what side of the bread is getting buttered as well IF you want to continue competing for a SB for now until you get your defense respectable. Just saying.:shrug:

I'm pimping the nastiest athletic MOFOs we have right now and I don't see anyone else at this point based on "my football eyes".;)

Your status quo position here will eventually get our QB injured against the better defenses IMHO. You need to securely protect your Franchise Investment at all costs IF you still want to compete for a SB.:shrug:

- OL is soft. They routinely get dominated in short yardage situations.
- LDT has routinely been unable to stay healthy. We had better have solid depth behind him.
- Center obviously needs to be addressed. Morse absolutely should not be signed. We need depth and competition here.
- Tackle is pretty set, but we have zero depth behind Fisher and Schwartz.

We PLAYED the better defenses this year and came away with nary a limp. The line needs to be solid and maintain a pocket, it doesn't need to open big holes and grade roads because we simply don't run that kind of offense, for better or worse.

These are solid points. Depth is a big concern and I believe we can address that some this season after we have spent the major capital on our defense. If they DO elect to draft a fatty in round 3, then Center needs to be the first fatty up.

I don't see us signing Morse or Allen. Morse is a concussion away from the end of a career and Allen didn't show me much (again). Devey is OK for depth. Reiter is the starting C next year and Wylie goes to LG, at least for right now. I'd like to see what we have in McKenzie and Murray before we spend too much draft capital. I believe we had Murray at C last season. Hunter could develop into a pretty good T.

That's why I say they should continually invest in the Oline and this year by drafting a center in the 2nd or 3rd round. Or maybe draft a versatile C/G in the 3rd/4th round if you think Reiter can hold the C starting position next year.

But really, the Oline was good this year. Just don't take it for granted.

Your "football eyes" are lacking then. The blueprint is now out there to significantly slow Pat down and that is interior d-line pressure because the Chiefs interior o-line is weak. Did you not see the interior d-line pressure up the middle from the Ravens,Pats etc... that severely slowed Pat down to the point of potentially injuring his knee when he came away limping for awhile ? I assure the other AFC west teams will load up on interior d-linemen as time goes on and this year especially since the draft is deep for interior d-linemen

You have to be able to run the ball especially in the playoffs against the better defenses to keep them honest and protect your QB. Hence the Pats. We cannot run at will when needed because we are not physical enough to run or pass protect against the better defenses.

Agreed.

With all due respect I will agree to a point and that point is they were good against mediocre to poor defenses, but against the better more physical defenses they struggled to run and protect Pat. Hence the Ravens, Hawks and Pats.

Agreed. And this is what we don't know for now is what type of real nasty potential do we have in our "depth bucket".:shrug:

The Patriots got interior pressure by outsmarting the linemen. It had nothing to do with the guys sucking. Morse looked like a total dipshit on several plays.

They have a built a finesse line, they're going to struggle with the big physical style teams. just how it is. Also don't know what everyone is expecting here, Fisher is here because of his deal, so is LDT, no reason to move Schwartz and Wylie played well..

Morse is likely out and they have in house guys to compete for that, they'll probably take a lineman late like usual but that's it.

Yeah I am serious. I know we have needs all over the D, but we now have Reiter as our starter with Erving as his backup. :eek: Since we don't have a 4th round pick we would be have to pick on in the 5th and by then you are so deep into that C position that there is not going to be much if any difference between the 5th and an UDFA. We definitely need to upgrade the Defense but we need to keep Mahomes healthy and upright.

Yes indeed I saw that so WHY are you pimping the portion of the line responsible for that mess? With LDT and Morse out you have two tackles and garbage. Garbage that opened up the middle like Bob Barker and said, "COME ON DOWN"!

And since were not a run-first team, I doubt that Reid and Veach are looking for linemen that excel in both pass protection AND opening holes. They want the best pass-pro guys they can get, because that's what we do.

In order for your "clever plans" to work in the game of football especially in the trenches you still have to be more quick/physical to pull them off.:shrug:

Your reading comprehension and football eyes are severely lacking my friend. Bob Barker did not happen when Reiter and Wylie were filling in just so you know. However, Bob Barker occurred on a regular basis when Morse and LDT returned to the lineup especially against the better defenses and is my point about pimping Reiter and Wylie.;)

Welp, then I hope for your sake that Reiter and Wylie are all-stars in the making because I don't see the Chiefs getting down at the draft table with many 0-fatties this year.

KC was 5th best in sacks allowed per game.

FYP

Against the better defenses like the Ravens,Hawks, Pats etc....?

A lot of that was because of Pat but I dont buy the stat one bit. Id like a stat on contact after the ball is out. Pat has little fear and will thread it in on the run before taking the shot. There is a point with any QB when those shots eventually take a toll. This line needs to be better and Andy owes it to his superstar to protect him. If anything should convince you rewatch the AFC championship who was the best oline that game. The difference was night and day a old TB could stand in pocket. When they wanted to run they blew open holes and got to the second level.

:bravo::wayne::bravo::wayne:

My point exactly !!

And I'm sure we'll get that.

Just not THIS year. :)

I think we're a year away from the OL investment.

I think the big need this offseason is to get the defense to a respectable level. Then you have to start restocking the OL next year. Then you'll need to start restocking playmakers the year after that.