Illegal Immigration: What should we do?
 

MODS: I'm interested in finding out what CP members think about this issue, and while I understand it's an issue ripe for political discussion.....I'd ask for it to remain in the Lounge for a couple of days, if at all possible, before moving it to its inevitable death in DC.

Fellow ChiefsPlanet posters: Can we try to have a reasonable discussion over this issue without it becoming too heated and denigrating into purely partisan demagoguery or racist insults? Please?

FWIW, I'm following the debate over immigration legislation somewhat closely, and I'm trying to figure out what the middle ground--if there is any--on the issue might be.

Thanks in advance for you opinions and posts.

Poll to follow, shortly....

I have tinted glasses on, so I'll abstain.

All I have to say is.. I'm all for LEGAL immigration, not ILLEGAL.. I don't care how long an ILLEGAL has been here, make it legal or get out

It's illegal; I'd say the laws should be enforced.

I hear Rain Man is hiring

I think that anything that folks like me say about it will be interpreted as being "racist", and furthermore we will be forced to listen to the 3 headed monster tell us how closed minded we are, I don't think this will work.

I was listening to the radio about Australia's immigration policy, that is based on a point system.

A few things you get points for:
Higher education in your country or this one
ability to speak english
highly skilled professional

I'm sure there are others, but the point is, the emphasis is on letting peopl in that are a boon to the tax pool, and make America smarter.

Of course, that doesn't address the current illegal problem from our southern borders. I think the first step in resolving that issue is sealing the border from illegals. There's little sense in trying to bail water, when we haven't fixed (or even slowed) the leak. Any sort of amnesty program will just encourage the next wave to sneak in and get their free citizenship that the US hands out every 20 years.

Kick them all out and start over.

Everyone drive to a field and pull up a cabbage on your way to work.

Set up an Ellis Island type deal to allowed faster processing of immigrants. Set up certain dates throughout the year when people can legally immigrate, and adhere to those standards. Declare amnesty for all those currently in the US, however, set restrictions on what they can and can not do, and if they decide to return to Mexico, they have to come back "legally" through the "Ellis Island".

JMO - I think our friends to the South can be a huge asset rather than a burden.

My mom was complaining that there might be a kid in her classroom thats illegal, and she doesnt want to see him deported.


I was like, "well if he goes back and reappliess legally, if he even is illegal, then he's fine and can be here."

We just need to figure out how to enforce our laws, moreso than we do now. I mean, even if we say 2-5 years reapply while you are here, 5+ years you can stay and work, and under 2 you need to go back home and apply legally. Well what happens then when those under 2 years dont want to leave, and manage to stay here 7 more years? We're going to have to start placing the burden on the states and employers to check and make sure the people they have working in their state (for state govs) and in their business (for employers) are actually legal and should be in this country.

Simple solution.


1. Enforce the laws. If we can't enforce them, we should change them to something more realistic.

2. If people want to come here and settle and be citizens and and join the American culture, fine. Our current system works for that.

3. If someone wants to come to America and make money and send it back to another country, then we charge them for a "guest worker" visa. We figure out the appropriate cost to ensure that we have enough low-skill workers, but not too many. We then use the money raised to increase border patrols and make sure that any people coming in to export money are paying a fee to do so.

Living in Dallas, I'm very familiar with the issue, but I am by no means an expert on the topic.

What drives me insane is people that get here illegally and are a burden on the system - taxes, schools, medical, etc.

Yes - I understand that for the most part, they do the jobs that nobody else wants. In Dallas there is a TON of contstruction (new homes, roads, etc) that are likely benefiting from illegal immigrants. However, just b/c they're willing to work hard doesn't mean they should get a free pass.

Cross the border LEGALLY and by all means you're welcomed with open arms. Yes, I know that situations on the other side of the border are not ideal, but there is a process.

What kills me is all of these students protesting, skipping school to attend these rallies... I can only imagine that the great majority have no clue as to what they're really protesting. They see it as someone trying to keep the minority down.

That's a story and a view I do not accept.

Get into this country legally... pay your taxes and contribute. Otherwise, deal with your decisions.

1. Begin protecting our borders. Two warning shots, followed by a head shot. Also, a virtual fence of armed UAVs patrolling 24/7.

2. No amnesty for the criminals already here. They MUST return to their CoO and pay a fine. They can then apply for residency after three years, and comply with all standards that other legals do.

3. Any illegal still found in the country in violation of number 2 is deported and is never allowed residency. If re-enters illegally, he/she is summarily executed.

Or if all else fails and Fox wants to keep complaining, we can just adopt Mexico's laws on immigration :)

(they are much more stringent than ours)

Since one can duplicate almost any for of Identification these days, a card system is right out.

I agree with the education and fee based system. Make them truly invest in their future by paying a fee, and somehow find a way to truly educate them about the History of this country.

Whether you like the politics, the President or not, this NOT Deep Space Nine, it's not wayport for transient souls to come take advantage of the welfare system, not vote, not pay taxes, fuck like rabbits and have multiple children at will (for us citizens to pay for) and otherwise just "hang out" and smoke fuggin dope all day.

We can all celebrate our heritage, but let me say this:

My family has been in this country since 1840, my country is America. I will waive the AMERICAN flag anywhere I damn well please in AMERICA. Celebrate where you are from, that's fine, fly your flags, that's fine, but DO NOT FORGET that you live here, in America. Pay taxes like the rest of us.

There is already a program in place like this in the US, for LEGAL immigrants....it would be interesting to develop one for illegals, should we decide on some level of amnesty..... :hmmm:

I agree with a lot of what Australia's system is about.....but here in the US....it would be seen as racist by many.

Bottom line is: what part of the word "illegal" do people not understand?

How about the Fillipino immigrants? Eh? :p

My mommy did it the right way.


My daddy certainly seemed to think so.






That was gross. Even for me.

I agree. I understand the desire by many, to not reward illegal behavior....but I'm trying to be realistic, I guess.

ROFL

heh.

I don't care who you are....imagining your parents procreating, or similating procreation, is gross! :banghead:

ROFL

What would you do to companies too lazy to thoroughly check immigration status of their employees, or those who knowingly hire illegals?

I say, drop the friggin' HAMMER on them. Big time. :cuss:

I bet that alone would stem much of the influx....

True...but then you would have even more crime from illegal immigrants than you do now....

In a 2004-2005 study, over 95% of outstanding felony warrants in Los Angeles County were for illegal immigrants.....

I'd like to know more about the naturalization process. I don't buy the line of people coming here just to suck off the governments tit. I'd be willing to wager the vast majority of illegals are here to earn money.

When the prices of your homes and produce double, just remember that it's because you were dropping the hammer.

Exactly. Alot of people don't realize how much of a strain it would put on the economy to "drop the hammer".

Well, in your scenario you're going to have to consider the impact that illegals have on the welfare/tax/schools/medical pieces to our society as well. There's a lot that we pay for while they're performing cheap labor to build homes and highways.

I am only talking about the riff raff, naturally all are not here to "commit crime" - I have a tendency to go off on tangents.

I'd be interested to see how much of that welfare and medical care are provided for illegals in comparison to legal US citizens.

Sorry, but that's rather simplistic.

Even in industries with high concentrations of illegal workers -- such as construction, restaurants and some parts of agriculture -- the impact isn't as great as many people think. If there weren't illegal immigrants working in construction in places like Chicago and Miami, then demand for legal workers would go up, which would mean wages would rise. But very quickly, legal workers from other parts of the country would move to those cities, and wages would go back down. The net impact on wages would be relatively modest.

That's probably the best summation I've seen.

I agree. But if you expect our taxes to go down when we eliminate illegals, you're dreaming. However, the prospect of prices going up is very real. People aren't going to cut into their profit margin if they are forced to hire legals, they are going to raise prices to keep the margin stable.

You may be increasing the average wage, by forcing out cheap labor. But you're making tha tincreased wage insignificant by the inflation that will come with it.

I know that's the argument. I just don't buy it. College kids, young and new workers, and legal immigrants could and would fill many of those jobs.

It's the SOURCE of the problem; and it's what needs to be the priority, IMHO.

Yes. Let's not forget that we have plenty of legal, native born ditch-diggers, too. The illegal labor has basically priced them out of the market.

I'm sorry but I don't agree. I work in the construction industry, and I have very real idea of the impact illegal labor has on the housing market. The cost of paying an illegal $500 per week is much lower than the cost of paying a legal $500 per week. There isn't going to be a host of freshly legalized mexicans that are willing to not only take a lower wage, but also start paying taxes on that wage.

The thing that people don't realize is a lot of these people are perfectly content working illegally, and not having to pay taxes on their wages. There are a lot of illegals that are in no hurry to be legalized.

You are right.

Most are too afraid to take advantage, even of programs they qualify for. I've seen an extensive analysis of it at some think tank site (Brookings Institute maybe?) that basically says they create much more government revenue than they "cost."

I look for it later, if I get time....

You guys over-estimate the willingness of the unemployed American to work. There a large portion of people in this world tha tdon't want these jobs, regardless of what they pay. America breeds lazy bums. Youngs adults would rather make $7 per hour flipping burgers than $12 per hour working a construction site.

The notion that there is a host of people wanting these jobs is just wrong. No one wants to be a roofer or concrete worker. It's a shitty job, and to make it worthwhile the wage would probably have to double at least.

And here comes the scare tactic used by the low-budget construction guys who operate on the fringe by using illegal labor.

Housing costs double? Bullshit. Who in their right mind believes this? You may very well be run out of business or be forced to change your ways but plenty of reputable home builders would survive.

The labor market would quickly adust itself to prevailing conditions once illegals were removed. Nature abhors a vacuum.

Prices would go up; I don't doubt that. But no where close to being double.

Of course; they're criminals. I don't like paying taxes either, but I'd rather not break the law.

near rio grande. El Paso would work

You act like only the crooks are out there using illegals. I've worked on homes that have made the cover of national magazines that probably used about 70% illegal labor. Homes that win awards and sell for millions.

You think there are people willing to roof for $500 per week? You're wrong.

I live in Los Angeles.

Why do we have have 60+ kids in our classrooms?
Why do illegal immigrants get more school loans/grants than citezens?
Why do illegal immigrants get medical treatment without having inusrance when citezens cant?
Who gets all these benefits but doesnt help pay taxes?
Who sends the money they make back to their home country instead of spending it here increasing the economy?

Yes the majority work hard, and do work that we really dont want to do. However, they are illegal. There is no argument that can support them. You want to immigrate the right way, then by all means please come on in and make yourself at home. But illegal is illegal, and it doesnt matter if you're latin, english, dutch, phillapino or asian. Do it the right way or go back your original country.

And one more thing, if you are going to wave your home countries flag and be proud of that country then by all means, stop by the immigration office and we will give you a one way ticket back there. You don't exactly win yourself much support by doing that. I have more to say on that issue, but the OP asked to keep it civil.

All in all, no amnesty, and tighter border control with armed forces.

Even a dollar is too much.

I have a friend who works at a pharmacy here in Phoenix. She has story after story of elderly Americans asking the Pharmacist if they can purchase a half of their prescription because they can't afford the whole thing. She has an equal amount of stories of non-english speaking Mexican illegals who can walk in, ask fo a spanish-speaking employee, and get their prescriptions filled with 100% coverage from Medicaid.

You that don't live in high-population illegal immigrant cities i.e. Texas, Arizona, Denver, etc. cannot possibly grasp how heated and personal an issue this has become. Battle lines are being drawn and the future shape of our country is in the balance.

1. Double is probably hyperbole.

2. That's why I say you have to seal the border before you do anything.

From CIS:

· Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.

· Among the largest federal costs: Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).

· If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels, the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700, for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.

· With nearly two-third of illegals lacking a high school diploma, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments — not their legal status or their unwillingness to work.

· Amnesty increases costs because illegals would still be largely unskilled, and thus their tax payments would continue to be very modest, but once legalized they would be able to access many more government services.

· The fact that legal immigrants with little schooling are a fiscal drain on federal coffers does not mean that legal immigrants overall are a drain. Many legal immigrants are highly skilled.

· Because many of the costs are due to their U.S.-born children, who are awarded U.S. citizenship at birth, barring illegals themselves from federal programs will not significantly reduce costs.

· Although they create a net drain on the federal government, the average illegal household pays more than $4,200 a year in federal taxes, for a total of nearly $16 billion.

· However, they impose annual costs of more than $26.3 billion, or about $6,950 per illegal household.

· About 43 percent, or $7 billion, of the federal taxes illegals pay go to Social Security and Medicare.

· Employers do not see the costs associated with less-educated immigrant workers because the costs are spread out among all taxpayers.

At least complement them on their signs.

Okay.

I realize that, and I proposed a solution earlier. Probably too icky for most, however.

70% non-union? Yeah. Even if that is the case what does that prove?
Quit trying to act as though you have proof positive that housing costs would double if illegals went away.

Your interest begins and ends with your access to cheap labor to support your small business.

(1) Send 'em back.
(2) No amnesty no guest worker programs....but
(3) increase immigration quotas so they can come in legally BUT with the intention of becoming full contributing, full-paying citizens that assimilate into our culture.
(4) do not allow those who support reconquista of the southwest, who are subversives or drug smugglers
(5) after doing #1-4 put land mines on the border
(6) if this continues plan for an armed invasion of Mexico, conquer it, annex it and divide up into several states

END of STORY!!!!

Oh, I forgot the obvious solution to this problem.

Illegal Immigration: What should we do?

Leave out a bowl of anti-freeze.

That may be your experience in Iowa, or even some other parts of the country: I just don't buy the idea.....that many Americans who work fast food, or entry level service jobs....would not take a better paying job.

Why don't they ALREADY? Well.....I don't know. I think, as you suggest, some of it is laziness. Maybe companies would have to pay more, but no where close to double....I think a couple of bucks might even do it. If the jobs were readily available, and companies forced to be agressive seeking people to fill the jobs.....if anything, we might have a problem filling minimum wage/fast food types jobs, if anything.

I'm sure there's some good research on a lot of these questions:

anyone got links they are already familiar with? Dan T? Amnorix? :hmmm:

Because the illegals have deflated the wage base.

I still find it hard to believe that many people would rather work for $7-8 an hour at McDonald's, than for a Construction company or meat-packing plant for $11-12 an hour. We are talking about a 30-40% difference in wages.....

I understand the conditions may be less comfortable....but sheesh! Growth potential and standard of living should outweigh being "comfortable" and lazy, shouldn't it? Regardless, raising those wages to $13-15 an hour may be something we just need to do, if we want to address the problem. Otherwise, we should just shut up about it, I guess?

Anyone with insights about that?

Unions are almost non existant in residential housing, at least in the midwest.

And yes, my interest does have to do with keeping my business alive. Am I supposed to feel bad about that? When the median wage of the roofer in Des Moines goes up by 40-60%, I'm not going to cut into my profit margin, I'm going to raise my prices. As will every other contractor that worked on that house. That cost will be passed on to the consumer. I already said double was hyperbolic, but there will be significant increases.

You think I'm getting rich off this? Most construction business owners make a very modest living. It's not a matter of lining your pockets with the extra money that you make off illegals. It's about whether you break even, or make any money at all. We can't raise our prices everytime gas goes up 50 cents per gallon, or insurance rates double without making a single claim. Pay increases in the construction industry are stagnant compared to other industries. We don't get a 5% raise every year, because the cost of a new home doesn't go up 10-15k every year.

I'm living it. I had Americans making 30k a year working for me, that left for low education office jobs making 22k per year.

It's not just about money. It's hard fucking work. And our high schools are villifying the construction industry to the point that young adults don't consider these jobs as viable careers. 50 years ago, plumber or carpenter was an honest living. Now schools use those jobs as a threatened fate if you don't go to college.

Excerpt from an article in today's Washington Times:

Provisions in past bills that have given amnesty to illegal aliens have been used by at least five terrorists to stay in the U.S. while planning or committing deadly attacks, a fact that critics say proves their contention that the "path to earned citizenship" in immigration bills now before the Senate constitutes a security risk.

This is why I am strongly in favor of back ground checks as well as fines for companies that hire un-documented aliens.

Jesus was a carpenter.


(I'll leave it up to you to decide if I meant the son of God, or the mexican.)

Theodore Roosevelt was a pretty smart leader and he said:

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

Theodore Roosevelt 1907

Not a good one, apparently. Did you see those scars on his hands and feet from the nail gun?

Eh, thats a pretty good point.

Dude...I can't rep you twice in a row.

This explanantion makes the most sense to me.

Theodore Roosevelt was a wise man.

They try and tell some meathead that's barely eeking out a C- average that he needs to spend 20-30k on college, when the reality is they should be pointing him to trade school or setting him up with a work program.

People look at accepting a job in construction as accepting failure. So you rarely get someone who's driven to make a successful career from it. Instead, you get the guy that will do it until one Friday when he wakes up and decides it sucks too much, and moves on to his next job that he'll hold down for 6 months to a year.

Is illegal immigration the new gay marriage?

Yeah, I don't envy managers in the construction industry. I've been doing some research on low-wage employees, and the least stable of the lot almost invariably describe themselves as construction workers. It's uncanny.

To be fair at my HS there was a lot of "selling" of what seemed like really strong votech programs. There was this place that they did all of those classes at and the whole school at one point during your sophmore year would take a tour of it.

There is a lot of intrest amongst people I know in construction managment and things of that nature but overall your main point is very valid.

I can only speak from my HS experience but I think its valid more so from the kid's perspective on it and less on the school's role.

I don't want to come off pro illegal. I'm the exact opposite.

But people need to realize that eliminating illegals will hit their pocket books. And the notion that there's a bunch of people that step into these jobs for a reasonable wage may be more than little off base.

You're right unfortunately. I have a job opening for a boar semen collector. It pays 6.00 per hour. Do I have any takers ? I don't think so, because americans are ****ing lazy. Look at you guys right now, most of you are at work goofing off on the internet (like me).

Here is the real backbone behind the whole immigration problem. There are 3-4 million illegals in america working and receiving a paycheck in which Social Security is being deducted and payed into the system. That money goes to support social security with no way that it will be paid back to them because they are using an illegal SS number. Think about it. They are the ones supporting our retirement and the government knows it.

THIS makes a LOT of sense, in my mind.

Anyone besides jspchief wanna take on Donger, or challenge the basic gist here? Are we missing something? :hmmm:

Oh, the politically incorrect jokes I can think of with that as an inspiration..... ROFL

I know I'm not allowed, but...

I also challenge the notion that people are going to move from city to city pursuing these low level jobs.

And it's not just the increased wage. It's the increased expense of paying legals. I can pay someone $500 under the table and it costs me $500, but to pay that same person $500 legally, it costs me around $700.

You can't in one breath admit that illegals equal cheap labor, and in the same breath say that the elimination of that cheap labor won't result in inflation in the industrries that use illegals heavily.

I voted for "Crackdown harshly on businesses that are lazy, or who knowingly hire illegals" but I only favor this if verification is simple, cheap for the businesses, and hard to screw up. I'm very hesitant to put the enforcement burden on private businesses.

In general, I favor letting those who are here illegally and who wish to assimilate have a path toward citizenship. Increase legal immigration, deport criminals, and MOST OF ALL secure the border (whether that means a physical fence, a virtual fence, more border patrol, the military, or some combination). If we don't secure the border, none of the rest matters (and some of it, e.g. amnesty, will be counterproductive).

We don't have a lot of legal workers to spare right now with the low unemployment rate. But if we increase legal immigration to replace the decreased illegal worker pool (which would hopefully result from a more secure border), the impact should be economically acceptable.

I agree with most of what you've said in this thread (except the hyperbole of course).

Sure you are allowed; I just wanted to root out some others too... :p

I think most will concede some inflation; I just think, in the long term, it wouldn't be as bad as some (you?) expect....

I realize Americans are cheap, but the bottom-line for me is....if the current system fosters illegal hiring by businesses, that needs to change--or the law needs to change, IMO.

Saying the law is one thing, and then winking and looking the other way when businesses circumvent the law is not something we should encourage or be proud of, IMO.

So either legalize it, or change the law. :shrug:

Then we should move quickly make them legal, or at a minimum "guest workers"....right now--instead of dissin' them.

I think Donger is right. I think a marginal increase in pay, coupled with the fact there are enough workers who'd be willing to take on second jobs or part-time jobs....that much of the loss could be absorbed, over the long run.

You hit a nerve with me. I wanted to be a carpenter, but my high school discouraged me on that career path and pointed me towards electronics. Although electronics has made me a comfortable living I am pissed for life over what my HS counselor did to me.

If I had been a carpenter I would have become a developer. From there I would have owned properties and developed real wealth. I have a developer friend that keeps one house from each development as rental property. After 20 years he has 20 houses owned free and clear earning him $36K per month. This does not count the value of the property.

To this day I am a hobby carpenter and regret that I did not go to school and study the subject and really develop my skills as a youth. My job in "electronics" earns me enough to keep me enslaved and unable to change professions, but not enough to develop real wealth.

Do nothing.

The system works well as we currently have it. These folks provide a service that few Americans are willing to do, they do it cheap and it's the only form on 'insourcing' in America.

And that's a hell of a lot better than the opposite!

Pfft. As if I could be anything else!?

I could see you as a plumber.

Except for the breaking the law thing and the fact that they take far more than they bring in, I'd agree with you.