Do you prefer the "old"/Vermeil style or the "new"/Herm style of play?
 

Vermeil-era vs Herm-era (all 2 games of it) by the numbers from today's KC Star:


New vs. Old: Comparing two coaches' styles
The Kansas City Star
It’s been only two games, but here’s how the Chiefs have fared in Herm Edwards’ brief tenure as coach (top) compared with five seasons under Dick Vermeil.


Edwards Category Vermeil
8.0 Points for 27.0
16.0 Points against 22.9
129.0 Rush offense 137.3
130.5 Rush defense 124.4
153.5 Pass offense 243.6
146.5 Pass defense 232.4

Hermie dosent have the tackles to play Vermeil`s offense but Hermie needs to get off page one of Vermeil`s play book.

I voted neither, but I have to add one caveat:

Anybody that voted for Vermeil is ignoring the obvious.

IT DID NOT WORK.

Period, end of story.

Whether or not Herm's "style" succeeds here is still undecided. No matter how you feel on the CHANCE that it will succeed, the simple fact is that we don't have sufficient data to make a determination.

We have 5 years of data on Vermeil. 5 years of failure.

We haven't seen enough to know what Herm's style is.

Always have and always will like smash mouth football. Give me a good D to watch and I am happy. Herm was delt a blow will Roaf and Trent. So any offensive now activity is a not really conclusive on how it will be for the tenure of Herm.

That said give me a defense that goes out and hits people hard and my personal opinion it is just as exciting as watching a high powered offense.

I prefer victories, call me silly. DV didn't get us to the playoffs = F. Herm is 0-2 = D- but too soon for final grade here

I dunno... how about comparing Herm's first 2 games vs. DV's first 2 games :shrug:

It's not really a valid comparison because this team is much more talented than our 2001 squad.

Herm has done a wonderful job with the defense. It's too early to tell if he's really ****ed up the offense, but the retirement of Roaf and Welbourn and Green's injury didn't help.

winning is what matters, it's the transition that sucks

That was sort of my point... Vermeil had his players.. Holmes, Green, Gonzo... but it wasn't magic on day 1 (he went 0-2, btw). PPG, our defense wasn't all that bad that year, either. It was way too early to tell if he ****ed up the defense.

And who knows about our defense this year... there's definitely a difference in attitude, but it's 2 games... and Denver wore them down. On Offense, it's 2 games with a new HC and OC, and almost a game and a half of it has been without Trent Green.

Two games into Herm's tenure, and I'm undecided... just like two games into DV's tenure.

Herm is behind the 8-ball because of player age and the loss of Roaf, Green, Welbourn and T-Rich. He can never have the same offensive success as we had under DV for those reasons. I fully recognise and acknowledge this fact.

However......

Whenever our team took the field under DV I felt like we should win. On any given day we could beat anybody. I never thought we were overmatched to the point of pessimism. The offense was so potent, our STs were strong (in the first few years), and all it would take was ONE stop by our defense. As it turned out, often enough they couldn't even do that. But they were exciting years, he brought in many quality players like Holmes, Roaf and Green that will go down in Chiefs lore as great players, and he rebuilt a team lacking in character and confidence.

For those reasons, I far prefer the DV era so far. Herm doesn't give me any of the same feeling that he knows what he's doing. He's fighting an uphill battle right now, especially given the loss of personnel.

JMO.

I'm going to say Herm's style. I liked the aggression the defense showed Sunday. I really believe that type of defense will again turn Arrowhead into a place that opponents hate to play. Even though our record is pretty good the past five years, a loud crowd when we are on defense instead of offense. A crowd that forces the offense to commit penalties because of crowd noise, which often leads to turnovers as a result of down and distance issues.

But then again, I have always liked the smashmouth style of football. The kind of game we saw last night from Jax and Pitt. The kind of game we saw in Denver Sunday.

I'd vote for Herm's because Herm seems to be developing a TEAM.

DV couldn't have cared less about the team becausue it only suited his goals to develop an OFFENSE.

Having fallen in love with this team during the 1990 season, I really enjoyed the game on Sunday. Defense is my preference and it is looking like we will have one of those under Herm.

It would be nice to expect the offense to be able to move the ball and score though. With Trent in there though I think we would have gone downfield occassionally. Once that happens, I think we will see that this team is pretty well balanced right now. We may be 0-2 but I am not writing off our post season chances yet, no matter what the talking heads have to say on the matter.

sorry dude...

thats definitely it

You didn't?

Not even the day before travelling to Pile High?

BE HONEST.

How much of that was about not having Green rather than not having Vermeil?

I don't feel real confident going in with Damon Huard, regardless of the coach.

I wasn't talking about last weekend.

Cormac was talking about how, with VERMEIL, he always felt like we could beat anybody. He said he NEVER felt we were overmatched to the point that he was pessimistic.

I'm saying he's really not thinking his answer through.

Because anybody that thought we had even a CHANCE at Denver or Minnesota in 2003, or at Denver ANYTIME during Vermeil's tenure here was watching the game with rose-colored glasses...

I agree with this assessment. I much prefer to see offense. (I think it's time for some NFL rule changes. Virtually no team can pass protect against today's defenses. College football has become more entertaining to watch.)

Having said that, and having been a Herm basher in the past, I recognize that with no pass protection and/or a backup QB in there, Herm's hands are a little tied. That excuse only takes you so far though. Didn't we put up about 500 yards and 40 points against Houston last year with Jordan Black at left tackle? So when Trent gets back...

I'm keeping an open mind with Herm. When Trent gets back, we better not be playing for field goals, but I do tip my hat a little to Herm for almost pulling a game out at Denver with Huard as the QB.

I think it's too early to judge Herm one way or another.

Exactly.

I'll kill Herm if he tries to reign us in.

htismaqe,

Actually, I always thought we had a shot. I am sure there were individual games here and there during DV's tenure when I wasn't so confident, but on the whole we were competitive going into any game, IMO. I know we got our asses handed to us a few times in Denver. The memory of that game in 2003 is enough to make me puke, but before kickoff I was ready to see them kick some ass. This year's trip to Denver was dead in the water before we even got there as far as I was concerned. A lot had to do with the loss of personnel, as I said, but Herm just doesn't inspire me. I wish he did. I wasn't happy when he was hired. I tried to see the positive, but it's just not happening. I do hope he succeeds, but I have major doubts.

I didn't watch the last game because it wasn't on locally and I had too much other stuff going on to go to a bar. I wish I'd seen it just to see what improvements the D really made. But the few highlights shown on ESPN were of Plummer making typically pathetic throws and the intended receivers were wide open on occasion.

In DV's defense, I thought we had a really solid team last year. We could have made a run like Pittsburgh, IMO, had we not lost Roaf to injury. Those games kept us out of the playoffs. The way we played late in the season, nobody would have wanted to face us in the playoffs.

JMO.

I understand what he is saying which is basically our offense was so good it could score at will on anyone at anytime. Did it happen all the time no but going into games you knew the O would be there and all the D needed to do was get 1-2 stops per game.

A tale of two coaches...

It was the best of units. It was the worst of units.

The situations are quite parallel.

Vermeil took over a team that was percieved to be stronger on defense upon his arrival and devoted most of his attention to developing the offense. Several key additions (Green, Holmes, and Wiegmann) were made immediately to improve the offensive unit. In truth the defensive unit was already in strong decline and had several large holes that only got larger with time. Failure to address the issue resulted in the tragic wasting of one of the most prolific offenses in NFL history.

Herm took over a team that was percieved to be stronger on offense upon his arrival and devoted most of his attention to developing defense. Several key additions (Law, Hali, Edwards, Reed, Pollard, Page) were made immediately to improve the defensive unit. In truth the offensive unit was already in strong decline and had several large holes that will only get larger with time. Failure to address the issue wiil result in an ineffective team.

Herm can be more sucessful than Vermeil only by being more successful in revamping the "other" side of the ball. Edwards has the advantage that the warning bell is ringing earlier and louder, but he probably won't get as long to fix the problem.

I have no preference for building one side of the ball over the other. Both a good offense and good defense are needed to consistently win. I prefer Vermeil's aggressive attitude toward taking advantage of scoring opportunities and beating a team while you are beating them, compared to Herm's conservative approach to minimizing mistakes. I prefer to tolerate a little more risk in order to gain access to much better benefits. I prefer Herm's understanding that playing well against good teams on the road is a true measure of a team's toughness and his ability to have them ready for such situations. I don't see these two traits as mutually exclusive.

.... Germ warfare revolution part deux. :rolleyes:

I'm not an offense homer, either. I scream as loud as anybody on 3rd down when I get to go to a game, but if you're completely hamstrung by one side of the ball, I prefer to have a strong offense.

To put it another way - however frustrating it is to give up big plays on 3rd down defense, I hate it when you run or throw a 4 yard route on 3rd and 8. Hate it.

DV and AS did a fabulous job here in KC. The team that Herm inherited was not in shambles unlike what DV inherited. Comparing the two is an APPLES To Oranges comparison. People like htis are "black and white" in their analysis and critiques.

The real problem is not the HC staff, but the common denominator that each HC has, namely CP!

It's a collective effort within the whole organization that ultimately determines who succeeds each year or not.

Marty and DV could have and Herm can succeed here if CP was not part of the equation.

I think my point will be proven this year expecially if Marty can take SD to the AFC Championship and beyond. I look at that team and the balance of offensive and defensive playmakers and I credit the GM's abilities for making that happen whereas during the 90's KC was dominate on D for most of the decade and below average at best on O. Marty did the best he could with what he had. CP did not do his job in helping Marty complete the team. The result was HEARTACHE for CHief's fans followed by IMPLOSION!!!!!!!!!!!!

The same can be said with DV/AS but it was the Offense that was dominate and the D lacking!


Once CP leaves, finding the right GM will be key!

I was firmly convinced prior to Sunday that we were gonna get trounced too. But it wasn't because of Herm, it was because of VERMEIL.

5 straight years of getting embarrassed doesn't give on much hope, and it's VERMEIL that sucked the hope out of me, not Herm.

well said!!!!
well done!!!
great post!!! :thumb:

Yet they never did.

Agree with that. I can't remember us being a double-digit underdog at any time in recent years. If Green was still in, I bet the spread would have been 7 or 8.

I think it's way too soon to start comparing Herm & Vermiel's records.

Our O points went down when Roaf was on the DL last year and we had to keep Gonzo on the line for protection. I think they haven't worked out all the kinks we saw in the preseason. They'll get better with each game. We just don't have a lot of time for that to come around. This bye and our week 4 adn 5 schedule could not have suited us any better.

IDK due to inconclusive evidence

I'm not comparing Vermeil to Herm. If you'd bother to READ what I wrote, I said EXACTLY THAT - that you can't compare the two. See, Herm has been here for two games. Vermeil was here for 5 years. It's only valid to compare the two once Herm has been here long enough to examine his tenure in hindsight. There's no other way to do historical analysis because it's BY DEFINITION not historical if it HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

That being said, yes I am rigid in my criticism of Vermeil. One playoff appearance and ZERO wins in 5 years is about as "black and white" as you can get.

We were a double-digit underdog last weekend BECAUSE OF VERMEIL. Take Green's injury out of the equation and what you're left with is our PUTRID showings there in 5 years...

Wrong. Look at game films of the NY Jets for the past 5 years. Welcome to Hermball.

Jet fans must really be hurt that their former head coach is here now. I understand. If Man-gina was my coach I would be upset as well. But fear not Mr. Gang-green because before Herm and now after Herm one thing will remain true........You did and will continue to suck.

"We were a double-digit underdog last weekend BECAUSE OF VERMEIL."

ROFL

If you recall in my post Marty and DV could have succeeded big time here, but my argument is CP was the common denominator why they didn't.

Marty was able to consistently make the playoffs each year with the Chiefs. A bad coach couldn't do that. DV took 2 different franchises to the SB and won one. He was able to take a below average KC O and develop it to one of the BEST the last 5 years, a Bad Coach would not be able to accomplish this.

Marty and DV were not failures as coaches here, CP failed them and the fans!

The fact that we have everyone pointing fingers at DV and Herm and comparing and contrasting their coaching ability and style is missing the big picture, and CP is laughing all the way to the bank while the "villagers" are chattering and arguing with each other like fools.

So you're saying that the line on the game was IN NO WAY influenced by that last 5 years results in the same game?

ROFL

I would prefer that we had a good offense and a good defense. I would prefer that we go to the superbowl and dominate 55-0. I would prefer that every team in the league would bow down and kiss the feet of the greatest team ever assembled.

*lays down crack pipe*

I just want to win a game this year.

Even though I appreciate the frustration, the bottom line is that CP didn't miss the field goals against Indy, he didn't start Grbac over Gannon, and he certainly wasn't the one on the field that couldn't force the Manning-led Colts to punt in the post-season.

He assembled the players and assistant coaches that these two head coaches wanted, and it is not his fault that the resulting teams did not make it to the Super Bowl.

Carl's job is to sign players and make the organization profitable. It's the responsibility of the coaching staff to make the teams winners. About the only area where I can truly fault him is in the poor scouting that we have had through the majority of his tenure and in the poor drafts that we have had as a result.

Get over your hate for Vermeil and Saunders.

Vermeil is no longer the coach. He was not the reason for the double digit point spread.

Denver is a good home team - not only against KC, but in general. The Chiefs D was suspect in week 1. The Chiefs O played very poorly in week 1. The loss of the starting QB, Roaf, Welbourn and Richardson. Those are the reasons for the point spread.

<i>If you recall in my post Marty and DV could have succeeded big time here, but my argument is CP was the common denominator why they didn't. </i>

CP is a common denominator and I'm no fan of CP but I only hold CP partially responsible for our futility. With a few exceptions CP has given his coaches every player they've asked for. The only notable time CP overruled DV was on LJ. It was DV's magical mystery drafts that produced Sims, Siavii, Battle, Downing, Freeman, Minnis, and on and on.

As for DV doing a wonderous job here I guess that depends on how you define it. In five years he produced one division win (against the softest schedule possible and with two wins handed to him by officials), no playoff wins and a winning % just a hair above .500. He did however do a great job at building an offense and proving to the world that it was he and not Martz that was behind the 'Show' in St. Lou which I think is all he really intended to do anyway.

I don't hate Vermeil OR Saunders. In fact, I'd prefer to forget about them altogether.

Then again, I'm not the one that keeps bringing them up, opining for the days when we could be the number 1 offense and still not win a goddamn thing.

As for the point spread, if you don't think that the FACT that we've been beaten at Denver 5 straight times, by an average of 14 points, played into the point spread you're flatly ignoring the truth of the situation.

Ditto.


Now, if the question is whether I'd rather lose with our O scoring 40+ or lose with our O scoring 3, the answer is neither.


If you ask me which coach I think gives us a better chance of winning, I have to go with Herm at this point. Herm is at least concerned with the O. He may not have the answers, but he's concerned. DV wouldn't even recognize the problem with the D while his buddy GR was there. Which leads me to my second point, Herm doesn't appear loyal to a player. He will put a multi-million dollar player on the bench and put a younger player in (Hicks and Knight at this point, Bell may not be far behind). DV's loyalty was commendable at times and condemable at others.

The truth of the situation is that Denver is historically a very good home team. They beat Marty, Vermeil and dozens of coaches regularly. What was the point spread last year when KC went to Denver? Was it double digits? If it was "BECAUSE OF VERMEIL" as you stated, the spread should have been the same.

Herm is just an automaton. There are at least 5 or 6 other coaches in the NFL who coach things the same way he does. Play a 4-3, run a cover 2, run the football...blah blah blah....With that sort've approach you're only gonna be as good as what your draft picks turn out to be because everybody else is doing the exact same thing, running the exact same schemes, and there's only so much money to go around to spend on players....and this team can't draft worth a damn so they're always gonna be behind the 8-ball doing the same thing everybody else does.

IMO a really good coach gives you an advantage due to his schemes....the scheme by itself elevates the level of talent going into it.

Mike Shanahan and his zone blocking offense
Dick Lebeau and his zone blitzing 3-4
The original 49ers west coast offense
Dick Vermeil's greatest show on turf
The original Tampa 2


Those are examples of schemes that outproduce their level of talent.

Vermeil's scheme gave this team an unfair advantage just like it did with the Rams. Martz had the same problem with the defense when he took over and he was smart enough to bring in Lovie Smith back when that defense wasn't being run by everyone in the NFL...and it was effective....they went to another superbowl. That's all that Vermeil needed to do really but someone ****ed up when they chose Gun instead of someone that would bring in a defense that would limit big plays.

I prefer a truly balanced team. I could care less what the offensive style is as long as we move the ball well. Same with the defense. As long as they can make stops im happy. The last time we had a truly balanced team was 1997.

I prefer Vermeil's "style". I don't think Vermeil's style was to assemble an offense to carry the defense. When he won the Super Bowl with the Rams he had a top 10 offense and defense. I think Vermeil wanted a defense like he had in St. Louis. He and his "style" failed in KC because he surrounded himself with poor DC's and poor assistant coaches and didn't fire those who weren't getting the job done.

I think Herm's "style" is a play not to lose style. I think Herm is complacent with that type of game.

Historical trends in a series weigh HEAVILY on betting lines. That's why Iowa has been an underdog ONE TIME in the last 10 years versus Iowa State, despite having lost 6 of 9.

Vermeil happened to be our coach during the past 5 years, in which we laid egg after egg at Denver. You can pretend that it's irrelevant all you want. It's not.

Wrong

Here is the betting line between the 2 teams for the last 5 years. I guess all the ass kickings we get in Denver don't reflect in the lines.

12/04/2005 Sun DEN 27 KC 31 G 1/46

09/26/2005 Mon KC 10 DEN 30 G -3/47½

12/19/2004 Sun DEN 17 KC 45 G 3/51½

09/12/2004 Sun KC 24 DEN 34 G -3/47½

12/07/2003 Sun KC 27 DEN 45 G -3/46½

10/05/2003 Sun DEN 23 KC 24 G -3½/47

12/15/2002 Sun KC 24 DEN 31 G -3½/47½

10/20/2002 Sun DEN 37 KC 34 G 3/50½

12/16/2001 Sun DEN 23 KC 26 G -1/38

10/07/2001 Sun KC 6 DEN 20 G -10/47½

DV also had alot more talent overall to work with in STL than in KC. YOu have to remember that prior to 1999, the Rams were awful almost every season from 91-98. They were always picking in the top 10.


The Chiefs on the other hand have never been truly awful in the CP era. He always has done "just enough" to get by and keep the fanbase excited, but not enough to get over the hump.

Let me guess.

"Someone" is Carl Peterson, right?

How soon we forget that if Peterson hadn't FORCED Vermeil's hand and brought in Gunther, Dickie would have retained Greg Robinson...

And where did those lines come from?

Every game, home and away, was essentially even money? I don't believe that.

Google .. :)

http://www.bodog.com/betting-matchup...0060917/KC-DEN

For what it is worth I don't gamble so I don't know if this is a good site or not.

Herm is a dumbazz.

He asked which we preferred, not which was better. I prefer the offensive style of Vermiel to the all defense no offense style of Herm. The games were a lot more fun to watch.

Especially when one revels in organizational failure. ;)

ROFL

We are not reigning in the offense. As soon as Green gets back, we'll be back to normal with how our offense is run. And I bet we're more agressive against the 49ers at home.

Herm wants to be dominant on both sides of the ball. DV seemed to only care about his offense and it got the Chiefs no where. Anyone who thinks DV had any sort of success in his 5 yrs needs to look at the facts and not the gaudy offensive numbers that mean nothing. No playoff wins, 1 trip in 5 years, and a complete waste of the the best offense in the NFL.

If you are going to blame Herm for the offense's decline and ingore the fact that having 2 new tackles and a 3rd string QB playing has had more to do with the decline than anything Herm has done; then you also have to blame DV for the terrible defenses he fielded. Those defenses turned the Chiefs into a laughingstock and were historically bad.

DV was a failure plain and simple. Herm still has a chance at success and his formula is far more successful. A top defense and a punishing offense. It works year after year for various teams and coaches.

good point
people have laughed a the KC D for 5 years
even the NFL commish let one slip

I honestly believe that Herm probably feels that Green going down was a blessing in disguise. Ill go out on a limb and say that we will continue to play the same style of football we saw in Denver even when Green returns. We will open it up slightly of course, because Green is a better passer than Huard, but what we witnessed on Sunday, was basically the style that Herm wants to play. I think its a sound way to win games, but the QB has to make a few more plays and obviously Green can do that more than Huard.

Well, considering the winning percentage in the Herm era is .000, I guess I prefer the DV style so far.

Can we combine the two, Vermeil's offense with Herm's defense/control over players.

With a time machine, perhaps we can retrieve Richardson, Roaf and a healthy Trent Green.

I don't.

That's not Herm's style. He dumped Paul Hackett in NYJ and brought in an OC to go down the field.

I don't buy for a minute that Herm wants to throw 2-yard passes all game.

I said he would open it up some, but for the most part, he would prefer to have LJ & Bennett grind it out 35 times a game. At least with Green in there, there is a threat of throwing down the field which should open up lanes for LJ. Of course, this all depends on the O-line protection.

thats not true!!!

herm defended hackett until he no longer could..he had no choice but to get rid of Hackett..

and if you look at last years game between the Ravens and the Jets..it was one of the worst exhibitions of coaching I have ever seen..that was the week after pennington went down..

herm's quote was..''any drive that ends in a kick is a good drive'' :cuss:

Dick Vermeil made the same mistake with Greg Robinson.

Herm has learned from his mistake, IMO.

ok..thats different..I hope he does learn from his mistakes..it will make him a better coach..