The biggest reason our offense was great was the O-Line, Herm didn't ruin it.
 

Herm has not ruined our offense. We don't have a dominate line anymore which has led to less yardage in the air and on the ground. Couple that with mediocre WR's and a suspect FB and this is what you get.

Trent is looking old as well. His arm no longer has the power to go down field. How many throws have hit the ground. How many times against Balt did they run up and knock the ball away from our WR's. We've seen Trnet under throw our guys more than once this year on deep patterns. This is related to arm strength.

Herm deserves a chance to build his team. Get the O-line he wants and get larger more physical WR's that can get the ball without having to be wide open.

At least we know damn well he will get some more beef for the D-line.

Agreed. I'm pretty much in the same camp. The O Line was always the key, and now it's not working like it used to. That pretty much screws up the rest of the offense. Herm did not make Trent a year older and a little less accurate, he did not get rid of Roaf, he did not sign our mediocre recievers. He's working with what he has, which sadly ain't much anymore.

Blame Carl. It feels better!

YES! WE SHOUILD TAKE THE KING OUT BACK AND BEAT THE SNOT OUTTA HIM!

For the good of the team, Trent needs to communicate his intentions to Herm & Carl ASAP. If he is going to retire after this season, Carl needs to re-sign Huard before he goes on the market.

I know Huard is 33, but he shows toughness and doesn't try to force throws into double coverage. Rebuild or not, he'd provide stability through next year while Croyle develops.

Trent is ready for a dirt nap, and Shields is barely average any more. Wiegmann is just being exposed more often than he used to be, and most of all we REALLY miss Roaf.

And, like it or not, Tait was much better than anyone we've had at right tackle since.

We need to spend draft picks building in the trenches.

It's not that Trent's arm is shot...he's not a pitcher. He can't step into his throws because he's constantly being assaulted on all sides.

i thought huard already had a new deal.

and we all knew last year that the O was gettin old.

That would be news to me; good news, but I must've missed it when it happened.

That was a one-year deal for 2006.

He's a UFA.

I was watch’n this specifically last week and almost all the under throws I was able to track were because he wasn’t step’n through with his throw. He’s shortening his throwing motion 'cause he’s either got someone at his feet or he’s run’n for’is life.

Who evaluates the talent and decides who plays where on the OL? Solari or Herm...

Nice to see that the man in charge of the preformance of this football gets a complete free pass.

also, if you can see that the line is failing, why sit on your hands and try to convience Big Willie to come back? Carl and Herm sit and did nothing thinking Willie was coming back!

They are both stupid jackasses. If something is broke or weak, you try and fix it, but no they just let it go and said we will be alright..

Tool bags

I wonder if Herm will realize that he needs a better OL and if he will address it.

In his 5 years in New York the Jets did not use a single first day draft pick at the OL position. This year, Mangini's first year, they used both on the OL (Brick and Mangold) and it appears to have paid dividends.

Agreed. While I love O-line play, we can't spend a lot of dollars on the entire O-line.

IMO, LT & RT is where you should typically spend the top picks to solidify those spots.

You can get Guards and Centers cheap in the middle to late rounds.

I agree completely. While all the emphasis in the media are on the stars and "skill" positions, football games are won and lost on the line of scrimmage, and thats where we need to focus.

What were they supposed to do? Roaf announced shortly before training camp, and they thought Svitek was going to be his backup, with Sampson and Black at RT.

There wasn't really anything they could do.

But yet they always ran the ball well with Curtis Martin. Didnt he lead the league in rushing like 2 or 3 years ago??


Pennington also had a couple of good years when he wasnt injured.

The Jets had a decent line.

He drafted Kareem McKenzie in the 3rd round in 2001.

And you conveniently left out that in the 5 seasons prior to Herm's arrival, the Jets drafted Jason Fabini, Randy Thomas, and Matt O'Dwyer and acquired Kevin Mawae.

Herm is working with an aging OLine.

He will get some good replacements at OG, LT, WR, DT

I have confidence.

We don't need a new LT. We need a new RT.

You can't be serious.

yes there was, from what everyone was saying Roaf turned his paper work in way before that and they had a pretty good idea that he wasnt coming back anyway.

On top of the Carl knew that Roaf was damaged goods anyway, why not play damamge control and try to resolve the situation earlier, by FA or draft.

Nope, that would of been the right thing to do.

If Herm had any balls between his legs, he would of went to Carl and said, Get me a good LT, so we dont have to worry about the grounds keepers digging up our QB's on a regular basis after they are repeatedly planted.

Agian like I said in a different thread. Herm was a safe hire, and these are the reasons why. No conflict, will do what Carl tells him to do with out any question.

The Big Tuna wouldnt of had anything to do with that would he? He was the Jets HC before the Bill guy shafted them and went to NE right?


My thought was Herm always won with Parcells players and when that cupboard ran dry. Herm then proceeded to tank the organization. And yes this was before he came here to KC....

Granted the line isn't what it has been in the past but the play calling is not working. When you're constantly getting into third and long because you run the ball on 1st and 2nd downs the opposing defense is going to bring it on 3rd down because they know you have to throw. Play action more on 1st down, trick plays, hell do something that isn't so predictable. Don't keep trying to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result.

Well if are so-called "genius" of a GM that too many people on this board STILL feel the urge to defend wouldn't have neglected the offense these past few offseasons and would have been proactive in ensuring that it maintained its spot as one of the best offenses in the league... the Chiefs wouldn't be in the current dire situation they are now in on offense.

But typical Carl Peterson, he let the problem blow up in his face before taking action.

Whatever.

It's pretty simple. Herm didn't draft offensive linemen in New York because he really didn't need to.

That would be like Herm now going to the Raiders and them needing a RB and bitching because Herm didn't draft one in KC.

Seriously, some of your criticisms of Herm are downright reeruned.

Al Groh was there for 1 year between Parcells and Herm. I see nothing wrong with what Herm did in NY. He took them to the playoffs 3 out of 5 years, won a couple of playoff games, had a bad year in which everyone got hurt, and now a team filled with his draft picks and FAs are challenging for a playoff spot.

What, exactly, has Black done wrong this year at LT? When opponents get pressure, it was mainly coming from a collapsed right side of the line. No, Black isn't Roaf, but who is? He wasn't very good at RT, but RT and LT are two different positions. They're not mirror images of each other just because they're on opposite sides of the line. His problem have been because he was moved around so much, in my opinion. He's settling in to his natural position and it's working right now.

Speculation.

Preposterous. Who would they be able to get? I want some names.

Criticisms or whatever you call it, some are justified and some are just to annoy you.... Why are you so willing to look past Herms history? Because he is the coach of KC? Biggest problem is Herms past is following him wether good or bad. We are seeing the same crap here, that last few years we were laughing at and was so glad he was the Jets problem and not ours. Well now he is here and everyone is laughing at us.

I never said anything about Herm drafting linemen in NYJ... I was talking about the fact that Roaf was damaged here and it should of been addressed by him and Carl, regardless if Roaf was coming back or not. That was all.

Besides I will never bitch about what Herm didnt draft here in KC if he is gone. Trust me on that and if I do you can call me out on it. Cool?

This is really preposterous. The team that beat SD in the playoffs, and came within a Doug Brien field goal of winning in Pittsburgh in 2004 was totally Herm's team and not at all Parcells' team.

Because I was bored, I actually went and counted using this website:

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/pro/ro...nnual/2004-nyj

Only 6 (!) players on that team were ever coached by Parcells (Chrebet, Fabini, Ferguson, Martin, Mawae, and Sowell). That's an amazingly low number.

After Herm's first season in NY, he cut loose a lot of guys (Aaron Glenn, Marcus Coleman, Victor Green, James Farrior, Mo Lewis, Marvin Jones, etc. etc.) Expect the same fate for the Sammy Knights, Greg Wesleys, Kendrell Bells, and Eric Hickseses on this team.

That's why I think a lot of fans who expect massive investment in the offense this offseason are going to be disappointed. Herm will probably add a WR, but I think his focus this offseason will be on making the defense faster and better.

Cool Thanks for the info, I will go and check it out.

I agree. I don't think we'll get a lot of "playmakers" on offense, but we'll shore up the O-line and D-line and fill areas of need on defense. We'll remain competitive because of our defense next year, and Herm will cut the chaff.

Sampson, Svitek, Black... like always, it isn't that Peterless isn't trying to fix the problem- he just didn't do a good job of it.

When I get a chance, I will go back and dig through this to see if I can come up with something.

But are you sayin that there wasnt a LT anywhere in the FA market or the Draft that we could of signed that had promise or proved he was better than I-65?

How do we know if they never looked? Or did they look?

I know you keep saying it's the offensive line..but here is something for you to think about..and I posted this in another thread..it's the coaches responsibility to maximize his own teams strengths,and take advantage of the opponents weaknesses..if the O-Line is as horrible as you say..why is the offense so predictable??(you can still be conservative without being predictable)doesn't it make sense to be unpredictable to keep the defense off balance??
As for the O-line theory,history says good coaching will prevail over a bad O-line.
In 1998 the Jets 0-line was not that good(took them to the AFC championship game)in 1999 Parcells started 2 rookies on the O-line....that O-line kicked ass..Randy Thomas and Ryan Young..they turned into very good players..

The things 'everyone was saying' was speculation, nothing more.
What is verifiable, is that in May, before the OTAs, but after the draft, and after any marquee LT was off the table, Roaf was cheerleading this season as the one he felt 'better than ever' for, and was talking people into sticking around, giving it their all, and making the push for LJ to get 2K rushing.
What is verifiable is that there was no discussion of Roaf, except for off-hand remarks about tweaking his hammy in OTAs and going home after the OTAs for some rest and healing before training camp
What is verifiable is that this vacuum on Roaf news continued until day one of training camp, when Roaf FTA. He might have put his papers in early in TC. Heck he might have put them in even earlier. But there is no evidence of that to reference.
So stop with the 'everybody's saying' and give us solid facts about;
1) when Roaf's retirement was evident, and
2) what suitable replacements were available at that time and since.

1) Black wasn't even supposed to be starting at LT. He was slated in tentatively at RT. Injuries and incompetence (see: Sampson's sandy vagina, Svitek on IR and Turley's general level of "suck") gave him the LT starting job and allowed him to keep it.

2) Roaf retired after the draft and at the trail end of free agency. If there were someone available after Roaf retired, I have full confidence that they would have gone after them.

3) After Black settled in at LT, he hasn't made a whole lot of mistakes. Like I said, he's not Roaf, but he's certainly above average, and shouldn't be a huge area of concern right now, especially when you're looking at a line that's facing the loss of Shields and has a huge vacuum of a hole at RT. Add to that that Weigman, while very good when pulling and out in space, isn't well-suited for the up-the-gut running that we seem to be doing, and we might need to see what we have in Niswanger before next season starts.

At least you admit that roughly half of your opinions on Herm are pure bullshit.

I personally love this. If I'm not willing to be 100% critical of Herm, whether it's warranted or not, to the point of MAKING THINGS UP to criticize him, I'm "looking past his history". Trust me, I've put up with being called a Carl apologist for years and it's not gonna change.

Quite simply, I will criticize Herm when he DESERVES TO BE CRITICIZED. The guy has made a TON of mistakes, so why is it necessary to invent things to bitch about? It doesn't make you look smart or progressive, it makes you look PETTY.

And I never said you or any other Chiefs fan would bitch about Herm didn't draft here.

I said Chief fans bitching that Herm never drafted a 1st-day offensive linemen (even though he actually did) while in New York would be like his next team's fans bitching that he didn't draft a RB while in Kansas City.

Thanks for bolstering my argument. Randy Thomas and Ryan Young were 2/5 of that offensive line. All the more reason it would have been STUPID for Herm to spend draft picks on linemen he already had.

So you're admitting that you have no clue if they looked or not? Now we're getting somewhere.

Chicken Little posted verifiable evidence of doubts about Roaf's return on 6/23.

Just sayin'...

Actually,Hermy let both of them go when he came on board..Thomas got gobbled up by the Redskins and he let Young go to the Texans..

I distinctly remember pooping my drawers sometime in July.

FAX

So basically, we had plenty of LT's to choose from out of all the pro-bowlers that were on the June 1 cut list...

Thomas got $4M per and $7M signing bonus from the Redskins. I suppose you can blame that on Herm too. IIRC, Ryan Young had some nagging injuries that led the Jets to believe he was expendable and it turned out to be correct - he missed like 50% of his games over the next 2 seasons after he left.

Listen....after watching the Chiefs play this year..I can tell you that offensively,thats exactly the same way the Jets played on offense from 2001-2005..the predictability of it is inexcusable..you can be conservative without being predictable.

noones laughing at San Diego.

Thats right, Herm had difficult problems . to go against . No coach woulda gone to playoffs with this roster Herm needs better players and new cordinators,

Maybe Paul Hackett isnt so bad after all??

I'd love for you to explain this.

By the way, here's the 1st and 10 stats from last week against the Chargers.

1st half - 7 passes, 7 runs
2nd half - 6 passes, 7 runs

I don't see that as predictable. Shawne Merriman and Luis Castillo being better than John Welbourn - now that's predictable.

Obviously, Roaf retiring had a huge impact on the offense. But to suggest that Herm is blameless in this debacle is ridiculous. We had a better offense than this the first year Vermeil was here, and that was a new system and that was without Willie Roaf. How to allocate the blame between Roaf's absence and the current coaching staff -- now that's a tough question. I don't know.

What we do know is that Roaf was a hell of a LT, and that Vermeil, Saunders, and Solari working together were special. Saunders seems to miss Solari at Washington, and Solari seems to miss Saunders here, and they both probably miss Vermeil a lot.

As I have stated on other threads, it's not so much that Herm/Solari are incompetent so much as we went from the top offensive braintrust in the league to nothing special.

In this era of a salary cap and free agency, all teams are competitive. What makes winning franchises is good drafting, good cap management, and good coaching. With Vermeil/Saunders/Solari, we had good coaching on the offensive side. Now, we do nothing better than average. The only hope we really have is that Carl hits some home-runs on draft day. Before you laugh, a lot of it is luck....so our only hope is that Carl gets lucky. With this coaching staff, we're certainly not going to be out-coaching the opposition.

yeah bill, Herm is'nt predictable he is just too smart not to gamble away games with silly plays like vermeal.

Come on. That statement is a litte much.

The team sucked that year. with TrINT and alot of pieces to the puzzle still missing...

Nobody was calling for DV's head after he only won 6 games his first year here.

Herm needs time to show us what he can do and to get his kind of players in here.

If you have 3rd and long as many times as you run on 1st and 2nd down..then those stats make sense..I did not see one play action pass on 1st down..THATS PREDICTABLE!

Listen..even Hackett admitted after he left,that ALL IMPORTANT CALLS have to go through Herm first..hence the massive usage of time outs.

I don't understand this response.

In the first half they threw 7 times on 1st and 10. At least 2 (and possibly more) of those were play action throws.

We'd move up and down the field that year. Our problem was we'd get into the red zone, and Trent would throw an interception. That was fixed the next year.

This year, we have big problems just moving the ball.

Predictability is not looking at overall stats when the game is over..I saw the Chargers stacking the line with 9-10 guys on 1st and 2nd down..and the Chiefs continued to run the ball..what do you call that??I watched the game.did you?

And..there are things known as screen passes and misdirection plays for over pursuing defenses..I didn't see any of those either.

Edit:I saw one screen

Misdirection plays only work when you get the stretch play working. We ran a few screens, or tried to, but they usually got blown up.

herm doesnt like all that misdirection because he knows the best way is to take it directly into the teef of the defense. screens and misdirection are to's.

Yep. They were stacking the line, and bull-rushing up the middle on every play, so if we ran, we were screwed, and if Trent dropped back we were screwed. We definitely needed more screens and misdirections...

Of course I watched the game. I watch every Chiefs game.

I gave you the stats on run vs. pass. What happened more often than not was that the Chargers stacked the line and blitzed 6. The Chiefs called pass plays, couldn't block them and they lost. This is not a play-calling problem, it is a physical problem.

The same thing would happen to the Jets if they played at San Diego. Merriman, Castillo, Phillips, Olshansky, Williams - this is a monster front 7 that is 100% healthy and on fire right now.

The real story is that if they got the blocked punt they would have had an excellent chance to go into halftime up 10-7. People don't talk about the fact that the Chiefs had scouted the Chargers passing game so well that they knew just about every pass play the Chargers were running and had Phillip Rivers running scared.

The way the Chiefs were going to win a tough road game like that was not by throwing 30 times. It would have to be by playing conservative and winning the turnover battle. People have tried the other way, and no one has beaten SD there yet this year.

Jets fans I know will never understand this. Chiefs fans, I hope, will.

You're right....I have to agree with that..

You might as well forget it.

People bitch and moan about the lack of passing and playaction. So when the Chiefs DO IT, they bitch about the lack of screens. People bitch and moan about the number of draw plays to Larry Johnson, and then when the Chiefs use it LESS, people bitch that we aren't using it.

Get used to it - IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT HERM DOES.

It will never be good enough.

We will have to agree to disagree on this..but..I want to ask you one question.

Why was there no sense of urgency on offense late in the 4th quarter behind by 2 scores??and I'm not talking about with 4 minutes left,when they ran a draw play to LJ.I mean with 9 minutes left.

Actually,you would be surprised at how many Jet fans there are that used to defend Herm until the very end.they were called Hermophiles.

I agree there should have been more urgency with 9 minutes left.

But please don't take this to mean that I agree that Herm Edwards is a bad clock manager. On the contrary, I actually think he's a very good clock manager. People are always focused on going too fast on offense at the end of halves. And this always opens the door to teams to go down the field with 30 seconds left and score a winning field goal (as the Chiefs did to the Chargers the first time they met this year). This happens time and again.

Herm is always focused on avoiding this. He wants to keep control of the ball all the way to the end of the half, and this leads most fans and announcers to think he is going too slow. I know this is a hotly debated topic - I'd be happy to go over specific instances with you if you'd like.

Most of Herm's bad clock mgmt. rep comes from Quincy Carter not knowing the plays in one game against Baltimore (if I remember correctly).

I will give you this Htismaqe, I havent seen anyone on this board so dedicated to defending Herm as you.

But this is america and we all have the right to our own opinions. . Wether you like them or not. And being it is the USA you have a right to argue your point and use petty name calling as well.

So Get used to it - Alot of people dont care for him and like to express their opinion on here, wether you think it is factual or not, everyone has the right to their own opinion...

I respect your opinions wether I like the or not.

Rep to you!

The offense seemed to be just fine under huard at QB. The o line played some of there best football all year when huard was under center. Its herms fault that our offense is where it is because of the decision he made to start green over huard who was playing fantastic. Dont say well what about the fins game. We had bober playing LG in place of the best guard in the NFL. Of course its not going to be the same! So your blowing smoke out your ass if you think herms not at fault for the shitty state our offense is currently in. Maybe Green hurts our offense more then he helps it, including the OL.

OK

Then that goes against what he preaches..he always said let the defense win the game for you when you have the lead..and control the clock with the running game with a lead.

Having to waste timeouts because you can not get the plays in on time is inexcusable..it happened against the Chargers on Sunday.

good point bill. Herm said our offense is going to build up a lead and then sit on it by running the clock out. The giving the defense the opporutnity by closing games out for us, while the offense does its best to keep our D off the field by literally running out the clock. Basically by playing the 'conservative' offense which ironically we start each and every game out with by playing. Herm is backpeddleing. This wasnt the type of offense he said he was wanting to play with to get the lead. You wont get a lead by run run pass. That is what we call a conservative offense. Herm brought it with him from NY and now its here brought back from the depths and is alive and kicking in KC once again!!! Solari doesnt help with his 'clever' playing calling either.

See, this is the common misconception.

I'm not defending Herm.

I'm not defending ANYTHING.

I'm ATTACKING opinions that are poorly contructed and ill-informed. Nothing more.

Easy now there big fellow! I think if look at your over all posts you attack anything that is constructed as criticism towards Herm, you seemed to lean towards the defense of Herm...

Herm made his own bed, we are just pointing out the facts to the rest of the board.

Let me ask you this? If our thoughts and attacks against herm are poorly constructed and ill-informed, give us your thoughts, with out making excuses for his coaching style. Without using the lack of his players and injuries as an excuse, obviously his predecessor at NYJ isn’t doing to back with Herms old players...

It's a coincidence.

Hatred, whether it's for Carl, Herm, or anyone else, tends to be firmly rooted in EMOTION. Therefore, detractors are generally more frequent targets because they haven't usually thought out their arguments beyond "So and so sucks!" I have no problem with anyone pointing out facts, but they need to be factual and they have to be in context.

My thoughts on Herm? He's a Marty-clone. I don't really like his style, but I'm willing to give him a bit of a chance. I really wasn't happy with his decision to retain Gunther but I think that's indicative of an overall trend that included both Paul Hackett and Jimmy Raye. I just hope he doesn't completely ruin Mike Solari.

Injuries aren't an excuse, they're a fact of life. You simply cannot remove injuries from the equation and expect to arrive at a relatively objective conclusion of how good a coach did or did not do. Especially when those injuries come to the most important players on the field, namely QB.

Finally, Bill Parcells was Herm's predecessor. :D

Yeah totally whiffed on the predecessor thing.... Nice call!

I think you hit the nail on the head and I have said this before. Herm is a Marty Clone. That is why there is so much of a shorter leash on Herm then on the previous not to be named coach.

When the previous coach came to KC, there was a new hope and optimism, the transformation from the so called "3 yards and a cloud of Dust" era was going to take some time. The fans were willing to give them that time. Why? The previous coach had a Super Bowl Ring. It was shiny and blinding to the Fans; little did we know that the previous coach was going to make the Defense ride a short bus to all away games. Super bowl ring equaled time to rebuild program.

Then along came Herm. Now poor old Herm is caught between a rock and a hard spot. First he inherits a steady declining offense with a solid young stud RB. (Although with a little creativity and few risks and this “O" could still be top 10) Herm comes in and right off the bat bashes the offense for the lack of success of the Chiefs for the last 5 years. Well that was a kick in the nuts to the pride of the Chief fans. We took pride in our Offense. It was all we could hang our hat on.

Then he has the monumental task of building the Defense that has been ranked down around the bottom 4 for the last 5 years. This defense had the least amount of NFL talent in the history of the NFL for a defense. (Again thank you previous coach) We all knew that they had to make improvements to help the Defense, but at what cost? The cost came as not trying to improve a declining offense and help the Defensive embarrassment improve.

A couple of things that really eat at the fans of KC,

1. Herm doesn’t think we are very knowledgeable fans. He talks to the media like we have no clue to what is happening on the field. IE "Playing to win the game" When someone questions his lack of coaching abilities.

2. His game decisions leave a lot to be desired. Playing prevent in Cleveland and rushing 4? Punting on 4th and season late in the Baltimore game? Not using timeouts properly. Etc... Etc... Etc...

Lastly, we as chief fans really didn’t want to see this type of football back at KC. We went from 1989 to 2001 with Marty ball type football. It has worn thin in KC. We are not even through the first year of Hermie ball and we are already looking 3-4 years ahead, hanging our hopes that this dark cloud will move on and a change of the guard in KC is just over the horizon.

You have actually heard the questions the media asks, right? Our media asks some of the dumbest, most obvious questions I think I've ever heard.

I am sure they do, I was just using that as an example....