Why do we suck in 2007? Blame our drafts and King Carl. Evidence can't be denied.
 

I agree with most everyone here that from the 2003 LJ/Jared Allen drafts we have been doing a good job with our drafts. But we are still suffing in 2007 because of these draft years between Tony G and LJ.:cuss:

2002 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position
1 6 Ryan Sims DT
2 43 Eddie Freeman DT
4 107 Omar Easy RB
5 143 Scott Fujita OLB
7 221 Maurice Rodriguez


2001 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position
3 75 Eric Downing DT
3 77 Snoop Minnis WR
4 107 Monty Beisel DE
4 108 George LayneRB
5 141 Billy Baber TE
5 150 Derrick Blaylock RB
6 176 Alex Sulfsted T
7 212 Shaunard Harts DB
7 243 Terdell Sands DT

2000 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position
1 21 Sylvester Morris WR
2 54 William Bartee CB
3 85 Greg Wesley SS
4 115 Frank Moreau RB
5 153 Dante Hall RB
5 162 Pat Dennis CB
6 188 Darnell Alford T
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR

1999 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position
1 14 John Tait T
2 54 Mike Cloud RB
3 75 Gary Stills LB
3 84 Larry Atkins DB
4 108 Larry Parker WR
7 220 Eric King --

1998 - Kansas City Chiefs
Rd Sel # Player Position
1 27 Victor Riley T
3 88 Rashaan Shehee RB
4 120 Greg Favors ILB
5 128 Robert Williams DB
6 181 Derrick Ransom DT
7 216 Eric Warfield DB
7 224 Ernest Blackwell

I'm not going to even bother with Free Agents. JEEZZZ if King Carl has one good FA pick up I don't remember and in 17 years of picking up FA's seems I should remember one?

Ever heard of a guy named Priest Holmes??

This was discussed on some radio show. DV had control of the first day of the draft. The scouts had control of the second day.

Whether the people on the radio knew what they where talking about or just speculating is up for debate. But it makes good sense to me

Whoopdy-freakin-doo. Carl's whiffs outnumber his hits by about 10 to 1. He's simply pathetic.

Beat me to it. But I think he might be talking about the undrafted free agents.

T-Rich was an undrafted FA. He may have had a cup of coffee with Dallas

Correct. How many of those undrafted free agents have the Pats/Indy got in the last few years? There is an obvious corelation. So, we have a handful in 17 years of trying? Thats good enough to keep your job?

Also if you rememeber right Priest was brought in to be a 3rd down back not the feature back. Tony Richardson was going to be the feature back.

The team that Dick Vermeil left after 2005 had the least amount of good young talent of any team in the league.

LJ (and Dick didn't want him)
Jared Allen
Derrick Johnson

That's it. That is an amazingly empty cupboard. it's getting fixed now, but it won't happen overnight.

Wasn't Willie Roaf a free agent pickup?

-HH

Trade, 3rd rounder IIRC.

You forgot about Kris Wilson.

Nope. A conditional pick which became a 3rd rounder in 2003.

Thanks for the reminder.

-HH

Actually, I didn't. He's not a consistent, physical player. He needs replacing.

Yep, we got lucky with Priest, but if you keep trying it should happen once in a while. I know I was really excited when we signed him, he was a proven commodity to me.
I think we may actually have a couple UDFAs on the roster now, that could could stick. Further evidence, Herm is the best talent evaluator this team has had since Marty.

then you are retart.

Kris Wilson, while possibly not worth a late second round pick, has potential.

After watching the Redskins the past two seasons under Saunders, it's clear that he envisioned a "Chris Cooley" type role for Wilson. Cooley is quite effective as an H-back/tight end and had he not broken his leg in a meaningless pre-season game, he *may* have become a bigger factor by now.

But don't we have Tony G to play the Cooley role? There's not enough room on the field for them to both work the middle.

What we really need at the fullback position is someone like the Redskins have in Mike Sellers. A 6-3 285 pound monster who can block like an extra lineman, and also catch the ball if necessary. Not someone who wets his pants at the sight of an 8 man front.

Wilson has been the one of the most consistent playmakers on the offense

yup; exaclty.
Even a broken watch is correct twice per day.

ROFL

Last I checked, Tony G is a tight end, not an H-back.

The reason Saunders wanted Wilson was to have another big bodied receiver to create mismatches.

When this happens, it works out beautifully (i.e. play number uno yesterday). The problem is Huard hadn't been looking off his receivers, nor has he had much time to do so.

Hopefully with Brodie Croyle, the ball will be spread around the field more consistently.

Only time will tell.

line of scrimmage outlet saving Huard's behind

pass it down whatever your smokin'

ROFL :bong:

He has one drop & one forced fumble, taking the heat Huard can't handle. sacks & fumbles

I know what position they play - my point is only that it's hard for him to run those kind of routes with Gonzalez on the team. What does Kris Wilson give us that we can't get from Michael Allan - a 7th rounder from Whitworth?

We need tougher, more physical players on offense. Wilson is part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Total Players Drafted: 35

Players remaining on our roster from these drafts: 1
. Greg Wesley SS

Players on other teams rosters: 7

. Ryan Sims (played in no games this year)
. Scott Fujita (starts for New Orleans, third team)
. Monty Beisel (backup in Arizona)
. Terdell Sands (starts in Oakland - 3 tackles)
. Dante Hall (St. Louis)
. John Tait (starts in Chicago)
. Gary Stills ( backup in Baltimore )

Now THAT, is PRICELESS!

Of the player we drafted, I would takeStills back for special teams only, and of course, Tait. And Wesley is a good backup safety.

Terrible drafting.

How do the King Carl defenders justify this record?

Beats me... About four productive players ( Hall, Tait, Wesley, and Stills) and probably only one who should be starting (Tait). That's not a good record out of 35 picks. That's around 11%.

And less than 3% of these players drafted by the Chiefs still play for the chiefs.

And 77% of them are out of football entirely!

I didn't really realize it was so bad until I started searching for each of these players in NFL rosters.

Mark

Wonder what the ratio is for other teams? Can't imagine its this bad.

Been saying this for years now. The Chiefs have drafted poorly since 1994, bad drafting in general with the occasional homerun pick every few years, and that's the main reason the franchise has been stuck in neutral for nearly a decade. No depth, no talent, and too many holes for free agency to fill. We've come a long way in two offseasons, roster wise, although I thought we'd be better than we apparently are this year. The offense has further to go it seems. Hopefully another solid offseason will do the trick.

Who defends Carl?

Yep, he only does what the coaches let him do. He has only dropped three catchable balls since he has been a Chief. I think the guy has a lot of talent, if they would only use it more.

What is this supposed to represent, what time frame?

You can bitch and moan about CP every day from dawn until dusk but you still cut the check for season tickets. He laughs and counts the cash while you get to watch the mess.

Well even if you disagree I'm going to list free agents that the Chiefs acquired directly from college, or within a year after they entered the NFL, that were starters and made major contributions to the team.

Eric Hicks
Tracy Simien
Lonnie Marts
Kimble Anders
Tony Richardson
Willie Davis
Vaughn Booker
Brian Waters

Wow, thats like having no draft for a five year period. Explains how we got to where we are. This puts into perspective how good Herm may be at talent evaluation. Like it or not he's brought in some talent.

The years in the thread starter... 1998-2002 inclusive.

There you go. 17 years of free agency pick ups and thats the best King Carl can do? 1 contributer every 2 years.

Great post Big Red Chief. I didn't realize it was THAT bad. Jebus.

Additions to the roster.

Joe Montana
Marcus Allen


I forgot, this is a "what have you done for me lately" thread. Jeesh. Get a grip guys, the Chiefs are bad because the HC doesn't know how to handle offense in the slightest. Granted he doesn't have top of the line personnel, but these guys outclass anything sitting at home watching TV at the moment.

A great HC can take a sows ear and make a silk purse out of it. This guy can take the leagues best offense and scrap it in a single year. Like I said, if you can't get professionals to do their job you aren't doing your job.

10 fuggin yards on offense? Time to clear the bench and take all of the offensive line out for the second and third stringers. Somewhere even a dog finds a bone and these OL seem to be checking their shoe laces when the ball is snapped. It shouldn't be ability alone that you are nailing for failure there. Leadership, or lack of it from the HC position is the main reason we suck at the moment, not to mention that he can't lay out a game plan utilizing the offense because he doesn't know any more about offense than most of the posters here.

What is the combined draft record of all of the other GM's in the league?

You guys seem to forget that there are more busts in the drafts than superstars. It's always been that way and always will.

Why doesn't anyone ever interview Clark Hunt and ask him why he chooses to keep Carl Peterson around after all this time?

I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the media with enough balls to ask him that.

Now that drafting, is no drafting at all....I don't have a word to describe it? That's how awful it is.

We dont' have 1 player from those drafts on our roster right now.

Major setback for an organization, major setback. And what kills me is, they still keep CP. Only in KC.

I guess Herm Edwards and Bill Kuharich came in as shot in the arm to give this organization a better improvement at selecting talent in the draft.

Then Trent Green and Dick Vermeil should be included, as they were two very high picks. But then, it wouldn't look as bad.

Okay just for fun... Let's look at Baltimore. I choose them since they are generally competitive, but have also lacked balance. So, I expected to see alot of offensive busts in their drafts.

---------------------------------------
EXHIBIT A: BALTIMORE RAVENS

COMPLETE DRAFTS

2002 - Baltimore Ravens
(baltimore) 1 24 Ed Reed SS
(texans) 2 52 Anthony Weaver DE
(browns) 4 112 Dave Zastudil P
4 123 Ron Johnson WR
5 155 Terry Jones TE
6 195 Lamont Brightful WR
6 206 Javin Hunter WR
(vikes) 6 207 Chester Taylor RB
(chiefs?) 6 209 Chad Williams DB
7 236 Wes Pate QB

2001 - Baltimore Ravens
Rd Sel # Player Position School
(baltimore) 1 31 Todd Heap TE
(backup for browns) 2 62 Gary Baxter DB
(redskins) 3 92 Casey Rabach C
(unemployed) 4 126 Edgerton Hartwell LB
5 161 Chris Barnes --
6 194 Joe Maese C
7 231 Dwayne Missouri DE

2000 - Baltimore Ravens
Rd Sel # Player Position School
(browns) 1 5 Jamal Lewis RB
(oakland) 1 10 Travis Taylor WR
(atlanta) 3 75 Chris Redman QB
5 148 Richard Mercier G
(patriots) 6 186 Adalius Thomas DE
6 191 Cedric Woodard DE

1999 - Baltimore Ravens
Rd Sel # Player Position School
(baltimore) 1 10 Chris McAlister CB
(broncos) 4 105 Brandon Stokley WR (lions)
4 129 Edwin Mulitalo G
7 216 Anthony Poindexter DB

1998 - Baltimore Ravens
Rd Sel # Player Position School
(raiders) 1 10 Duane Starks CB
2 42 Pat Johnson WR
5 124 Martin Chase DT
5 133 Ryan Sutter DB
6 154 Ron Rogers LB
6 164 Sammy Williams T
7 241 Cam Quayle

---------------------------------------
ANALYSIS

Total Drafted Players: 34

Players still on the Ravens roster: 3
. Ed Reed SS
. Todd Heap TE
. Chris McAlister CB

Players on other teams rosters: 12
. Chester Taylor RB ( vikes )
. Anthony Weaver DE (texans)
. Dave Zastudil P (browns)
. Gary Baxter DB (browns)
. Casey Rabach C (redskins)
. Jamal Lewis RB (browns)
. Travis Taylor WR (oakland)
. Chris Redman QB (altanta)
. Adalius Thomas DE/LB (patriots)
. Brandon Stokley WR (broncos)
. Edwin Mulitalo G (lions)
. Duane Starks CB (raiders)

Other players of note: 2
. Edgerton Hartwell LB (first year unemployed)
. Chad Williams DB (supposedly with the chiefs.. probably cut)

Perhaps I chose badly, since I forgot Baltimore won the 2001 Super Bowl. Only three players remain on their roster but ALOT of the other players were key contributors. And overall, 17 of those players are still around football, or were in a camp this summer.

And these players were alot more productive than those we chose.

Should I look at another team? Need a nomination of a team that has been fairly competitive consistently, but not an elite team.

Mark

So, Baltimore has 3 players on their roster still, and they are all big contributors. Almost twice as many of the players they selected are still playing football.

That says something.

It's hard because so many AFL teams have been to a Super Bowl during those years or since 1997.:banghead:

sandy eggo do them next, or teh donx

That's not drafting.. that's pissing away draft picks... :-P

Those are trades. I'm not saying we can't spot talent once it has been in the league, or is a known quantity. I think this thread is in regards to how our actual drafts have gone down between these five years.

Not going to get into how we should build through the draft instead of trading for players that will last five years or give high draft picks for coaches.

Ooops... I did it again...

Yeah, I was really thinking about San Diego. Of course, they were bottom feeders for most of this time. Crappy, crappy teams, so we probably shouldn't take them as a point for lesson.

Let's do Denver since they have been fairly competitive year-in and year-out as well.

EXHIBIT B - DENVER BRONCOS

(I'm not going to bother with the entire list, unless someone really wants it. It can be found here:
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...1400&type=team )

ANALYSIS

Total Drafted Players: 43

Players still on the Ravens roster: 2
. Ian Gold LB
. Ben Hamilton C/G

Players on other teams rosters: 15
. Ashley Lelie WR (49ers)
. Clinton Portis RB (redskins)
. Jeb Putzier TE (texans)
. Reggie Hayward DE (jags)
. Nick Harris P (lions)
. Deltha O'Neal CB (bengals)
. Kenoy Kennedy SAF (lions)
. Cooper Carlisle G (raiders)
. Mike Anderson RB (ravens)
. Montae Reagor DE (eagles)
. Lennie Friedman C (browns)
. David Bowens LB (jets)
. Desmond Clark TE (bears)
. Billy Miller WR/TE (saints)
. Brian Griese QB (bears)

Other players of note: 1
. Al Wilson LB (first year of unemployment)

Looks like even Shanahan drafts better than us, and he goes out to free agency like mad every off-season.

Okay.. now the comparison...

Chiefs drafted 35 times over these five years with 1 (3%) remaining on our roster and 7 ( 20% ) remaining on a NFL team.

Ravens drafted 34 times over these five years with 3 ( 9% ) remaining on their roster and 12 (35%) remaining on a NFL team.

Broncos drafted 43 times over these five years with 2 (5%) remaining on their roster and 15 (35%) remaining on a NFL team.

There's also quality to consider.
Balt:
Ed Reed SS
. Todd Heap TE
. Chris McAlister CB

Donks:
Ian Gold LB
. Ben Hamilton C/G

Are a helluva lot better than Greg Wesley.

Look at the Colts over the same time frame and you'll be stunned to see how good they've been at drafting.

Virtually their entire starting offense has been #1 or #2 picks by them

Manning
Harrison
Wayne
Addai
Clark
Ugoh

Not to mention last years #1, Anthoney Gonzalez, their #3 WR

Wouldn't be shocked to see some other O-lineman choosen on the first day.

Defensively,
Marlin Jackson
Bob Sanders
Dwight Freeny

Those are only the 1st and second rounders I can think of. I'm sure there are many other draft picks still on thier roster. It's digustingly good drafting.

The Colts are the epitome of a well run FO.

I would say the Packers or Jets are a far comparasion to our team. They're usually a middle of the pack type teams.

Throw out all the players names. There's only one trade you need to look at that'll explain the 2007 woes - Vermiel for Herm.

I find this underwhelming evidence of massive suckiness.

The draft is a crapshoot. Every team is fairly bad at it.

I'd like to see more comparisons but even with the guess element of the draft these other comparisons clearly show that KC has drafted less effectively.

Indy and NE have done a superior job these last 5 years. All credit goes to their Front Offices.

There is no reason this can not be replicated in KC. All it takes is an owner that has the pride and the will to make it happen!

It will be 38 years when the Chief's last went to the SB. Since then only one AFC Championship game has been reached.

The complete turnover of the Front Office Staff is long overdue. It will be 19 years in December since Lamar hired CP and his time here should end for the good of the franchise.

Until this happens Chiefs fans will never see their team win another SB or have a chance for this team to become one of the great dynasties.

Those numbers are not so far apart, and thus lay out how close every team is with drafting. If the Chiefs had as many picks as the Broncos their numbers would be even closer.

Is the point being made that Peterson is a bad drafter? Because he's about a third of the say on who the Chiefs draft, in fact, the coach has the most say, and since you've limited your analysis to 1998-2002 I'd say you're mad at Cunningham, and Vermeil.

I guess I disagree. If we looked at each team in the league, and on average 35% of their picks from this time frame were still in the league, and only 20% of ours were... that says we can't pick talent.

And then, you could of course look at quality, as was mentioned previously. Or look at numbers.

I'm not as much stressing how many remained on our team, since this is a bit more complicated and has alot more factors. But just look at our ability to judge NFL talent. If we were picking just barely over half as many good players as other teams... we had a problem.

I am sticking with the years of the original post's claim. I found no reason to change the years that BRC started with.

And I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone in particular. Heck, I'm just posting numbers out of interest. When I started, I had no axe to grind. Maybe I should do a couple more teams for more comparison.

All that said, if we are hitting 20% and others are hitting 35%... there is/was a problem.. whether that was Marty, Gun, Vermiel, or Carl.. I don't know. I think we ARE drafting better now, but that is just a hunch.

Sticking with statistics...

Gaz... er.. Mark

Yes, we definately had a problem. Those were some pretty bad drafts. They just weren't that much worse than everyone else. 20% versus your hypothetical 35% (which I think is very high as an estimate) is horrible versus somewhat crappier.

I don't think it is the answer as to why we suck in 2007 and I don't think it can all be blamed on Peterson.

I'm interested to learn if any team in the NFL has a worse draft record over the same period. It looks to me like the Chiefs draft record directly correllates to their recent mediocrity. If true, I'm glad Herm is on board because these last two drafts have been fantastic.

I like the direction the Chiefs are heading in with Herm, but it sucks that it will take time.