The Patriots make a mockery of the Herm Way of Football
 

The Patriots showed once again today that the belief that you have to run the ball and have a balanced offense in order to win is an ancient myth... a myth that Herm still holds onto dearly.

This is why Herm will never be a championship caliber head coach in today's NFL.. he will never accept the fact that the great teams today are built around explosive, aggressive passing games and rely on these passing games as their primary source of offense.

The Patriots had NINE freaking rushing attempts all game and just 22 yards rushing for the game. Instead they relied on an aggressive passing game, often times spreading the field with 5 wide and attacking early and often downfield (yes actually passing the ball on FIRST down... a novel concept to Herm) with big passing plays.

Remember Herm often has said you can't just go back and pass every play and win in the NFL... well tell that to the Patriots. Tell that to Green Bay, Dallas and Indy... all teams that rely heavily on the pass.

As long as Herm Edwards is the coach of the Chiefs, this team will continue to be stale, out of date and never a serious contender in today's NFL.

Let me know when the Chiefs have a QB that's the same caliber of Brady and receivers in the same league as Moss, Stallworth and Welker.

Oh yeah, and an actual NFL O-line.

Then, we can talk. :rolleyes:

If you want to be the Patriots you had better get yourself a hall of fame QB. Right now, there are 3 in the league out of 32 teams so good luck with that.

Counting out Romo so quickly? :hmmm:

Hey, a bad running game was right in line with Herm's gameplan today.

That's true. We're half-way there! Yay!

ROFL

If Romo were injured tomorrow and never played again would he be a hall of fame QB?

Just kidding.

From the announcer's calls lately, you'd think he was already enshrined.

Ah, I should have known you were smarter than that. Carry on, then.

It just illustrates that in todays game you no longer set up the pass by running.....you set up the run by passing.

Thanks for giving me credit.

No one else does.

Remember Herm doesn't want a QB like Brady, or Manning or Romo that makes plays... he wants a "game manager" at QB (see Chad Pennington and Damon Huard). That is translation for a QB who has no problem handing the ball of 90% of the time.

You will never win in today's NFL with that type of QB.

Some teams can win with the run...teams like Minnesota, Pittsburgh and even Indianapolis. The problem with our philosophy is we don't have the personnel to run the ball...our line is awful in both pass protection and run protection.

We can't use the pass to set up the run, and we can't use the run to set up the pass. In other words, we were ****ed from the beginning.

Maybe Huard was the team MVP this year?

This thread is retarted.

Minnesota is 7-6 and was destroyed by Green Bay a few weeks back. In that game you had the Packers... a pass first team, score 30+ points and shut-out the "run first" Vikings you are refering to.

Pittsburgh is a run first team that was completely destroyed by the Patriots today... again a run first team being destroyed by a pass first team.

And calling the Colts, led by Peyton Manning and that passing game a team "winning with the run" is laughable.

When did Herm ever say that he didn't want a QB like Brady or Mannning or Romo? When did Herm ever say that he didn't want a playmaker at QB?

Are you just upset or is there really something wrong with you?

I'm sure none of these games went the way they did because one team was more talented than the other team. Must be the scheme.

Well Indy runs the ball an awful lot...the Colts offense is all based off the play-action pass...and in order to run a play-action, you have to run the ball...so I guess that is laughable.

Tony Gonzalez.

Well....I watched Herm go apeshit on Vinny some years back in NY. Vinny changed a play threw a 50 yard TD and Herm went ballistic on him.....I think that's all we need to know about Herm.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have details or specifics of that game?

Just out of curiosity, last year when the 14-2 Chargers had the #2 rushing offense and a passing attack down in the lower teens, did you start a bunch of threads saying "SEE, what you need to do is run the ball" with a bunch of blather about how that's the way the NFL is trending?

Or how about when the 2006 Pats had the 12th ranked pass offense, the 12th ranked rush offense, won 12 games, and were an eyelash from the Super Bowl? Did you start a bunch of threads saying "SEE, what you need to do is run a balanced offense" with a bunch of blather about that's how the NFL is trending?

Or how about when the Bears... oh, nevermind, that'd just be piling on.

It was in the middle of the game, it was just a general game situation I remember thinking I've never seen a coach be that pissed to score. Herm really thinks big plays that score quickly are bad.

I highly doubt that.

I distinctly remember seeing Vinny audible throw a long TD then come to the sideline, and he got yelled at. It was very weird.

I go straight to the source...


http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2007/11...edwards__1114/

HERM EDWARDS: He can throw it and can make all the throws. That’s what he can do. What he has to do is be a manager of the game. He has to know when to take chances and know when not to take chances and score points. That’s what the quarterback has to do.”

I'll say it. I don't believe him.

Heh.

I'll admit it sounds just enough like there'd be no way that would happen to make me think that it actually happened, if that makes any sense.

Sadly, it does.

it's been years, I mean Vinny was still starting. I know it happened cause I saw it. And one of my friends lives in that area, he's a Bills fan. We joke about it quite often honestly, it's something that's pretty hard to forget.

I'd disagree, it shows that in todays NFL you take advantage of your opponent. If they can't stop the run, you exploit that if they can't cover 3 WR's, you exploit that, etc, etc.

I bet it happened...that's why the only two people in the world who know about it is you and some other guy that you're internet friends with...

What do the 2006 Chargers, Patriots and Bears all have in common? They all didn't win the Super Bowl and two of those teams... the Patriots and the Bears lost to a Colts team that won because of their passing game.

Bringing a 2nd year QB along slowly really isn't the same thing as saying he doesn't want a playmaker at QB. If you really think Herm wouldn't trade Croyle for Brady I don't know what to tell you.

Ah well hey to each their own, cause you know I'm one to make shit up all the time.

It's great that you can't have just seen something anymore.

This thread was started by the tard who thinks Mike Leach would be a great NFL coach.

Do'nt go cut yourself. We're just havin' fun with ya.

I actually believe that it happened, for whatever that is worth, but I don't believe Herm was upset that the play resulted in points. Herm strikes me as the type who will get upset on principle- the type of guy who will get angry when a player disobeys the head coach, even if the disobedience has a positive result. I believe you when you say Herm got upset but I don't believe he was upset with the result- only the disobedience.

I just explained it. They were among the best teams in the league a year ago, and none of them played the way you keep insisting that all great teams play. That was kind of my point.

And Indy won the Super Bowl with good defense and two RBs who averaged about 100 yards a piece that day. I'm sure you immediately started a thread to declare that's how good teams win.

Unfortunetely, Mecca is correct. Vinny is a vertical QB. The Jets had him dinking and dunking.

Here's the play-by-play game plans from 2001-2007.

http://www.nfl.com/scores?season=2001&week=Week+2

I remember it vaguely.

You do realize that the Patriots are essentially running a variation of Mike Leach's offense... lots of 5-wides, using short, quick passes as a de-facto running game, etc.

Sure an improved defense and a productive running game had a complimentary role in their Super Bowl run... but the heart and the basis of the Colts Super Bowl run was Manning and the passing game.

The Patriots offseason was based on what happened to them in the AFC Championship game vs the Colts and realizing that they had to develop an equally strong passing game in order to beat the Colts.

I find it completely unbelievable that Herm ever went ballistic on a player on the sideline. And if this really happened you would be able to find many many stories on the Internet referencing it. A coach screaming at a player on the sidelines is something that gets noticed and written about in NY.

My guess is that you misinterpreted what was really Herm yelling at him to fire him up. Something like "they say you can't play anymore" etc. NFL Films has caught him doing lots of that kind of stuff.

i think it has more to do with the way the pats attack their opponents weaknesses. the way herm wants to play is obsolete in that establishing an prehistoric identity such as "run first" teams know what to plan for in order to shut you down.

the pats just simply study their opponent, and attack their opponents weaknesses. they dont run run run because they want an identity....they dont believe in having a true identity..and it seems to be working... meanwhile. we're stuck with herm.

can we hire belechecks son

Josh McDaniels, the Patriots' offensive coordinator (who looks like he's young enough to be Belichick's son) would be a great choice as the next head coach of the Chiefs.

Scott Pioli as GM, Josh McDaniels as head coach, Mike Martz as offensive coordinator, Mike Leach and Al Saunders on the offensive staff... that would be simply amazing.

Keep in mind -- Patriots, Green Bay, Dallas and Indy, you cited to:

That's Brady, Favre, Romo and Manning. 3 sure-fire, first ballot HOFers and one of the young studs in this league who may also join that category.

I'm not here to defend Herm, but your argument has a bit of a flaw there...

How about the Lions? Their offensive line is as bad as the Chiefs and Martz has that offense flying with Kitna at QB. That is the same offensive scheme as the Chiefs deploy only Martz knows how to use it.

Nonsense.

I disagree totally. Running the ball is an integral part of offensive success. You can't disclude that aspect of the game? No way.

Yeah a lot of us are used to watching the Pats, Colts, GB win with there passing game. So our minds and way of thinking tends to shift and let us believe passing is the way to go or to win in this league? But remember they have the QB's to do it. They have the right personnel to run an effective passing game. The Chiefs on the other hand, don't. Realistically, do the Chiefs have an offensive line that can protect the QB effectively? Do they have the right set of receivers to help make them be more effective in the passing game? do they have the QB? who knows?

Until the Chiefs get an offensive line and QB, I'd be comfortable with them passing the ball. But in all honesty, it boils down to execution imo? If your lineman can't block period, you're going to be unsuccesful no matter what you're trying to do? I also think predictable playcalling doesn't help either? No matter what the Chiefs do, they're just not good. Too predictable.

But still, when the Chiefs had a successful offense, the running game was a big reason why.

uh, I don't think Trent Green will be in the HOF. He did a pretty good job using guys a little less talented than Moss and co.

Oline as bad as KC's?!? I disagree with that. Kitna isnt a slouch and is a vet, we've been playing with a backup and a young'n. Plus the lions are at .500, so its not likt theyre tearing the league up like the Pats or Colts Os are.

chicken or the egg


which came first our crappy offensive players or the coaches that selected and trained them?

Get a hall of fame line and top notch running game can make the passing game work ie Trent Green & company.

Seriously, watch the Lions it will impact what you are thinking. Their offensive line is every bit as bad as the Chiefs. The difference is Martz is not scared to be aggressive and knows how to use the same offensive scheme.

Look up, theyre line isnt even close to as bad as ours. Theyve got talent and cohesion, they may not be top 5 but they sure aint bottom 5 like ours.

who decided to pick up McIntosh and Chris Terry?


who decided to keep wiegmann even though we were gonna change offensive philosophy?


who decided to simplify the offense down to a 5th grade level?

Dick Vermeil?

No doubt and on yahoo's page they have a picture of Romo and Montana side by side - jsut because he engineered a single 2 minute drill against Detroit...once

Well, let's see. Lions are in the NFC which is mostly weaker, though the NFC North has some good defenses. Kitna is a vet, whereas Chiefs have the QB of the week going on lately, including Croyle, who doesn't have much experience.

I also think I'd take the WR package the Lions have over the Chiefs'. You have the better TE, of course.

And yes, Martz is a helluva OC, I think.

I'm not saying "pass first" isn't a valid philosophy. In teh current NFL, it definitely is. But you've got to scheme to fit your players, and I dont' think the Chiefs have the right talent. Heck, I'm not sure they have the right talent right now for any competent offensive attack scheme, and that's part of the problem. One pro bowl TE, OLineman and RB ain't enough if the component parts aren't really average NFL players at this point in their careers.

Dam you, Dick!!!!!!!!!

Their Oline is ranked in the same range as the Chiefs statiscally. Kitna is the definition of average and has failed everywhere he went until Martz got hold of him. The Lions are not a complete team and not ready to tear up the league, but Martz is showing what can be done with the same offense with talent no better than the Chiefs. Right now the Chiefs would be doing well to be playing .500.

People keep wanting to look at the Pats, Colts, and GB as examples, which is ridiculous because of the talent gap. No so with Detroit. Comparable talent and same scheme.

hell .... the colts offensive line isn't much better than the chiefs.

Than why are they good, and the Chiefs look like the worst in the league? coaching? :shrug:

That's crazy. The Colts are so much better at every position except LG, where it's probably a tie. Just because the players weren't drafted high doesn't mean they're not really really good.

Are you trying to say the Chiefs are fitting their offensive scheme to the talent available? ROFL I doubt Martz would be running the same offense with this same talent. :shake:

As for offensive components Kitna is a vet, but not nearly as talented with the pass as Croyle. Kennison and Bowe are more than enough talent to do what Martz is doing with Williams and Johnson. The Chiefs have the edge at RB and TE while I believe the Lions have only a slight edge on OLine.

I was watching them run pass plays on first down yesterday from the exact same formation that Solari only runs from and having great success. The Chiefs have the talent to run those same plays, but they don't.

The Chiefs need talent, which is not debatable. That does not mean they are using the talent they have that is the sad part.

And how much of being good on the O-line is team production synergy created by good coaching? SF in the day could stick anyone in there, and have a better-than-average O-line.

and i think your judgment is highly suspect .... so lets just move on.

That's fine, but it's not my judgment that really matters. Let's see how much the market of NFL general managers is willing to pay Jake Scott and Ryan Lilja this offseason vs. how much they're willing to pay Casey Wiegmann, John Welbourn, and Chris Terry. They'll all be on the open market.

Now I'll move on too.

I take it you did not watch the Dallas vs Detroit game. They did the same against the Vikings, Bears and Green Bay. I watched the game yesterday and just kept asking why don't the Chiefs try those plays on the same downs and mix it up like that. Nothing predictable, fancy, or risky. They just used what they had unlike the Chiefs who keep trying to make the same plays work without success every week. Denver never had such an easy week of preparation.

because of several reasons....


1. general coaching - the olineman are coached a prepared to know the scheme and execute the scheme in indy.

2. attitude - the players believe in the scheme and fellow players. offense is the red-headed stepchild with Herm and the players know it.

3. scheme - these days in the NFL the athletic ability of the players is so close that coaching and scheme is huge. A scheme that gives the players any kind of edge can make all the difference.


listen ... unpredictability is an offensive lineman's best friend. when the Oline knows what's gonna happen and the defense doesn't it gives every Offensive lineman a step head start in getting to their blocks. The more unpredictable the bigger the head start. That can make every offensive lineman look quicker and look studly.

when a defense is just attacking without fear or regard ... the offensive lineman have to start "reaching" for blocks. They look slow and off-balance.


Brian Waters went to Hawaii in our last scheme but looks like a lazy bum in this one. Yes, having Roaf next to him helps but he is still getting abused several times a game when it's one-on-one.


do we have the best offensive line talent ...... no.

but our scheme and coaching are making them worse than they really are.


we trade offensive line with the colts and we would still stink and people would be screaming for lilja's head.

If that even happened, your extrapolation of the rationale is a stretch.
Maybe the play called from the sidelines was fundamentally sound and Vinnie came a whisker away from an INT.
Maybe the play called by Vinnie was a 'secret weapon' they were saving for a more pressing situation, and now the whole league was let in on it.
Your fevered recollection certainly doesn't tell us 'all we need to know' about Herm.

The Bears SUPER EFFING BOWL loss was not a loss by paradigm. The Bears had great receivers an an idiot savant QB who happened to puke on his shoes in the big game. Switch QBs, leave everything else the same, and the Manning led Bears kills the Colts 45-7.

And relying solely on Manning and the passing game was what had Manning spending half a decade as the Schottenheimer of QBs.

And to think ONE of those gaurds for INDY was in our house before we tried to hide him on the practice squad. What WORTHLESS (backup) POS's did we decide to keep on the active roster insead of Ryan Lilja?

http://cache.colts.com/images/player...Lilja_Ryan.jpg
6-2, 290
Kansas State
4 years in the NFL
W-04 (KC)
DOB: 10/15/1981

I hear ya. And I can agree with all that. Scheme does make a difference. I think the players the Chiefs have on the Offensive line are not as bad. They look bad because it's the little things around them that are bad.

Agree completely. You could take a line full of Pro Bowl players, and they still would look pedestrian when trying to execute predictable, ultra-conservative play-calling. Very few five-man lines are going to be effective when their coaching staff is to stubborn to stop running into the teeth of 8 and 9-man fronts on every first down.

damn Arena Ball will be the death of us

I think the Pats have had to gameplan this way because they don't have a good RB. Maroney hasn't been doing it and they lost Morris who was good. If they had a good RB I think they'd run more. As I recall at the season's start they ran much more. JMO though.

Are you a Patriots fan, or a Buccaneers fan?