Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time
 

After seeing my worst fears come true in Herm with the Jetsification of the Chiefs (a top 5 draft pick) and the destruction of a team. I wonder in this microwave world of instant gratification how is it we cling to the notion 2 years doesn't set a trend especially giving his previous body of work. So I thought well surely 2 years must be handed out like candy in the past to any head coach and then it occurred to me to check the Chiefs history to confirm this.

Chiefs Head Coaches with shortest tenures:

Tom Bettis - 1977
Frank Gansz - 1987-1988
Gunther Cunningham - 1999-2000
Paul Wiggin - 1975-1977
John Mackovic - 1983-1986

Thats half of the Chiefs Head Coaches in the history of this team. 3 of them are 2 years or less. So in the present world why not cut ties with Herm. Actually excluding Herm 33% of Chiefs coaches have had a tenure of 2 years or less. And yes I know Bettis is a bad choice. Still 2 years of Herm like performance has cost coaches their jobs in the past.

Dave

I don't think he deserves more time, but only because I've seen enough failures of his own sans the team he inherited to know that he's not an NFL Head Coach.

Explain to me why we need to give Herm more time
 

Easy, we need to give Herm more time so we can have high draft picks two years in a row.

we don't

but unless Clark is ready to wipe the slate clean, fire everyone (GM, HC, OC,DC) it doesn't matter...

He's just frankly the wrong guy, his idea of wanting to draft, get young and build the team is right in theory but his idea of how to do it and how to play is wrong.

Give us a realistic alternative to Herm

Spot on Mr. Mecca.

Dave

Bill Cowher. He's Herm with a plan and a set of balls.

Dave

:bong:

Why would he come here? San Diego is his if he wants it or for that matter several teams would drop their dead weight if he was interested

Cowher is basically a pipe dream.....

I'd wanna talk to whoever is Pioli's right hand man in NE is and see if we could hire him. That person has been in a successful organization and sees how things are done properly. Then go from there.

I like that alternative.

But Cowher won't be back coaching next season. I also think if you know a rebuild or retooling or whatever is necessary you give your HC three years.

Herm/Carl get their three years and if/when it doesn't work Cowher's ready to come back with a ton of say in player/personel and city more than happy to have him. Timing.

I would only keep him one more year IF Cowher could be had.

Gunther was .500 and was fired over the internet after 2 years. I don't think Herm deserves more than what Gunther was offered.

Gun wasn't rebuilding anything. He essentially kept the same team that Marty threw together the prior couple of years and had two horrible drafts.

Touche.

Could someone give me ONE LEGITIMATE REASON why Bill Cowher would take a job here?

He left one of the best jobs in the NFL, fresh off a SB win, to be closer to his family.

One reason?

For a coach?

Dave

On paper I like the "three year rule", but in its application to KC it just stinks. Why give Carl/Herm another year of draftees and free agents when a new GM and coach will come around in 2009?

100% Correct.

Seriously this comment should be sent to all the "Give Herm a chance to build his own team" crowd.

Oh no, it starts at GM, then you see who he likes as coach.

How about 8,000,000 reasons? I'd pay it if I was Clark.

Dave

I think Herm came in saddled with an OC and a DC dictated by CP. Herm has mentioned on a couple of occasions lately that there are things he can not talk about as directed by powers above in the organization. And even though he came out and said Gun is his man for the DC spot, it is clear they are not on the same page.

I really believe Herm and Dungy are of the same mold, and I like what Dungy has done in both Indy and Tampa. But I believe Herm needs to be allowed to run the team the way he sees fit, and not with the meddling of the GM to interfer with the everyday operations of the coaching staff.

That is complete BS... Herm was given complete freedom in hiring the coaching staff of his choice.

Good thing you're not Clark.

I don't think Cowher would come here even for that amount. TheRooney's offered him a substantial raise to stick around, and he still retired.

He didn't leave a great franchise with a great young roster to start a rebuilding project.

You know why the Colts win and why Dungy could never win in Tampa, Peyton Manning. You wanna play that the Chiefs are gonna get Manning? Also they have a GM that told Dungy he wasn't allowed to change the offense...

Also when Dungy in the past tried to pull typical Dungy moves Manning would overrule him. So until we get a QB with enough sack and enough stroke to tell the coach to suck it, we won't win.

What??? Please show me the proof of that.

Link?

I don't even want Cowher here, honestly. He reeks of the Marty/Herm school. And he wouldn't have the super bowl ring either, except for the most poorly officiated game in super bowl history.

Yep he even called Gun and asked him if he was ready to get started.

Dave

I don't buy that. If it is so, then Herm needs to go.

Peterson knew Gun, Vermiel & Edwards. The one time he went with someone not of his cast of croonies is when he had his most success.

Mecca is no doubt right. Until Peterson is gone, it will just be more of the same. Keep Edwards until Carl isn't picking the HC's anymore

I think we can all agree that he should be given free reign and not have to operate under the same ideologies as the previous regime.

But at the same time, I've seen him make mistakes that are inexcusable no matter who the personnel or staff is.

Get someone that works with Polian or Pioli, those guys are by far the best GM's in the game. Not to mention from Polians time in Buffalo spawned several successful GM's that were his assistants.

He's been here before said he loved it. And he said he would take 2 years off coaching. That means he would be available in 08.

Dave

And what else would you do in CP told you your DC was going to be Gun?
I still buy into the Gun has compromising pictures stashed away.

wow .. well if that's your attitude then we better just hire Gunther as HC and be done with it.

i mean seeing as KC is such a shit hole. :spock:

Very true.

I think his ideology of how to build a franchise are dead on.

I don't think Carl Peterson shares that "vision" to share from another thread.

Could he be successful rebuilding with CP out of the picture?

Absolutely, IMO.

But some of his gameday mistakes are inexcusable.

Who would you want them to pick at coach?

I don't think he'd be overly successful because so far he's shown he's not a great drafter......at best his first day draft picks are 50/50. He also favors defense to offense, with personnel and coaching and in todays game with all of the rules changes it favors the elite offense/good defense teams. Not the elite defense/alright offense teams.

The best way I can put it is, I think if Herm had a team he'd want to be like it would be the Jaguars. For as many games as they win in the regular season and make the playoffs every year...does anyone think they'll get get past Indy and NE? They can't even beat out Indy for the division.

C'mon Laz.....

People are living in a fantasy world if they think Cowher would choose to come here.

Some seem to think you can just throw a ridiculous amount of money at him and he'll come here just because he was here before. That's ridiculous.

He didn't leave one of the best franchises in the NFL to sit out 2 years and take over a reclamation project.

Cowher is a coach who's going to be looking for a team that is right on the cusp of a SB appearance/win.

The KC job is perfect for a young guy who has the smarts and motivation to rebuild this thing the right way. A guy who can build his resume.

Head coaches have to have big egos. But how many have rebuilt two teams & been successful at it? With San Diego setting there loaded with talent. Why not go for a bust in canton?

KC is perfect for a guy who wants to be in total charge (Assuming CP is executed along with Herm) and wants to show the world he can turn chicken shit into Chicken salad.

While taking over the Patriots might appeal to you, some people enjoy the challenge of building something that will knock off #1.

And the Chiefs are not that far away once the CP on down is replaced.

Dave

I think Herm should get one more year, just because i think we will have a lot more talent on this team next year. To be honest Bill Belichick couldnt have won with the talent we have this year.

This is the straight up truth. The idea that Herm would be more effective if he wasn't so held back...well...that's just crap. Dungy is the Herm model. He will always have to be controlled by a GM and given parameters. The only problem...Carl probably isn't the GM he needs and Croyle isn't Manning...as already noted.

Now...there's also the matter of game-day management w/ Herm vs. Dungy. Wait a minute...how many babysitters would that be for Herm?

Seriously...at some point, you just aren't a legit NFL coach. Great DC, though.

Cowher is going to Carolina.

This team sucks because our General Manager has neglected the roster since the Vermeil era. It doesn't suck because of Herm.

Uh...no. It sucks because of the GM, players AND Herm. Nobody gets a free pass on the suck-train.

Great coaches can coach mediocre talent into over-performing and can work around bad management decisions to a decent record. Our record indicates all facets are wheels off.

Even though the refs gave the SB to Pittsburgh, you have to give it up for the fact that Cowher got the Steelers to the SB twice, something that will never happen under Herm.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There have been few years in that span where we've had the talent they have.

The Steeler teams usually have balance, which is what we have never had in Carl's entire tenure.

Cowher is an average head coach, just like Herm is. With superior talent they have a chance. Without talent they have no chance.

**** Herm! He shouldn't have gotten the two years he already has. Chris Terry can help him with his move. See ya!

Pretty much nothing in this post is true.

Manning runs that offense. Manning has also overruled Dungy before. In fact, I think it happened in a KC game where Dungy called a FG and Manning ordered them off the field.

Don't hold you breath. He doesn't have it.

If Manning "overruled" Dungy, it's because Dungy allowed him to. The idea that Dungy doesn't run that team exactly the way he wants to is disrespectful and dumb. The idea that a GM told Dungy "hands off the offense" is equally dumb. Like Dungy is so stupid that he'd handcuff Peyton Manning. :rolleyes:

I agree, Dave. Some coaches would embrace the challenges of rebuilding a franchise.

I just don't think Cowher is one of them.

I just think this job appeals more to a younger guy, with the motivation, energy and desire to BUILD a winner. Something he can put on his resume and be known for.

Yeah... this line of thinking is just beyond dumb. Somebody somewhere started this whole "Peyton Manning is the OC of the Colts, and not even the head coach tells him what to run". And it's been snowballing ever since.

When he was hired it was part of the job, that he wasn't to mess with the offense just the defense....he also doesn't have a ton of say in players..

You really think Dungy is calling stuff over Polian...I don't think Dungy would have taken Anthony Gonzalez first if it was his call.

Herm needs more time because he has a lot of bags to pack...

Personally, I'm enjoying this year's Christmas more than most. I have no false hope built up inside. No anxiety. I havn't slapped the shit out of my wife since we were .500% :redface:

Seriously, lets keep Hermy, Carl, and the rest of the losers and see how BAD it can actually get. Wouldn't you all rather have years like this than go 8-8?

So, I say keep the Stooges in the front office for a few more years. We are so far away from a championship it wont matter anyway.

Or we bring in new people to build a good team, which ever one.

Best Idea I have heard yet. People wanting to stick with Herm another year have truly been sucked into CP's BS that he shoves down the throats of the Chief faithful. He has not done shit yet and won't do shit in the future, so why waist anymore time on this joker that should not have been brought here in the first place? It is officially time for a house cleaning! Clark needs to do this, for the team, and the fans. Chief fans have been very faithful over the years, and it is now obvious that we are fed up as a whole.

I also wonder, if Marty wanted to come in as GM, after the curb kicking (if it happens) would we be happy with this? I think I would. He has learned that it is a different day and age in the NFL. He wants to be a GM, and he liked KC. Wonder if him and the Hunts have hard feelings?

All in all I think it will be interesting after the season, to see what Clark will do......

Herm needs additional time to come up with some more crazy-ass sh*t to say, Mr. Dave Lane. Personally, I look forward to him throwing everybody on the team beneath the bus this off-season.

"Get under it!!".

FAX

Vermiel was 14-18 his first 2 years
Herm will like be 13-19 his first 2 years

There is only ONE man on the Chiefs offensive line that would start for ANY other team in the NFL: Brian Waters.

Herm was left with a perennial #32 ranked defense and an aging offense that saw TWO HOF lineman retire in two consecutive years.

Herm has begun to stock the roster with talented *football players*, most of which have been solid. With ten picks in the 2008 draft and plenty of serviceable players available via free-agency, this team should compete for a playoff spot in 2008.

Herm should be given at least three years to overhaul the roster.

Then, it's on him to produce. If he doesn't, fire him.

I'm on the fence on this issue. What coach would have had this collection of inept talent further along at this point? We know Carl has meddled with the situation and delayed a true "rebuild," which is what Herm wanted from the start.

I don't think Herm is taking us anywhere, but he deserves the chance to build his own team. I guess what I'm trying to say is, give him as much rope to hang himself with as possible. If we're this bad in 2009, pull the plug.

Fire Clark Hunt!! It's the only way!!

The problem I have is that Herm and CP should have started the rebuilding last off season instead of starting in Week 11. We just wasted a year for nothing IMO.

The "rebuild" did begin this offseason. They brought in a ton of rookie free agents (Patterson, Brackenridge, Sippio, etc.) and have been playing many young players from day one (Tank, Turk, Bowe, etc.). The draft choices have been solid (if not spectacular: Bowe & Smith, especially). Croyle will be a solid NFL QB for years.

The Chiefs simply COULD NOT overhaul the entire team in one off-season. It's simply not possible. And there's no way this team should have started Croyle from day one because of the very offensive offensive line.

Carl was smart not to call it a rebuild. Since he has, attendance has been down and people are calling for his and Herm's head on a daily basis.

CP knows his fan-base all too well. Hence 19 years of mediocrity. Overall, Chiefs fans can't stomach a rebuild.

But it's too late. It has begun.

Herm "deserves" nothing. He serves at the pleasure of CP...and CP serves at the pleasure of Clark. If Clark pulls the plug on CP, he owes Herm ZERO.

Rebuilding would have had Croyle starting this year. We have basically wasted this year. Patterson, Brackenridge, are okay but i don't think the team is thinking these guys will be starters. Sippio, well he got a shot because of an injury, but no he is not going to be a starter. Turk and Tank have not gotten to play much at all, until this week, probably because of injury to Boone. And neither have stepped up yet, I think they have even been inactive a few games. The offensive line was better at the beginning of the year, than it was two weeks ago when D mac was out, and Terry was lost in space. Attendance is down for several reasons, mostly because people are fed up.

KC fans can handle a rebuild, but it should have started at the beginning of the year and not week 11. And the fact that Herm has thrown every one from the old coaches to the team to the fans under the bus has escalated everything also.

Let's just all face the obvious, Herm is a JOKE!!!!!

Let the record note that you're willing to give Herm more time than even I - the uber-Herm defender - is willing to give him. If we're this bad in 2008, he will and should be fired.

Brodie Croyle wasn't ready to start the season. Plain and simple. And even if he had, he'd most certainly be out for the season by now due to injury. This offensive line is awful. Even if they DID look better at the beginning of the season (and that's debatable), that's due to the age of the lineman. They're old. They're worn out.

Expecting second and third round DT rookies to be ready for the rigors of a 16 game season is ludicrous. And apparently you haven't been watching much because Tank's played in 13 games and Turk has played in 14 games.

He can't draft talent either. Whiffing on a 2nd and third for the Tank N Turk Combo-will kill us for years.

The Chiefs ought to hire some real kick-*ss GM and Head Coach whose names carry so much weight that the 31 other teams will just give up and let the Chiefs win the Super Bowl.

Wouldn't that be Neat-O!!!!!

In my opinion, Herm was never the guy. I disagree with his base philosophy. It is not a matter of if we replace him but when.

I can think of two reasons to keep Herm on board for 1 more year.

1. If we fire him after two years, some good coaching candidates might get the idea that we don't have the patience to build. Giving Herm 3 years sends a message to the candidates that they will get 3 years. The perception of good support from the franchise is key to attractng the best candidates.

2. Another year of roster flushing and drafting will give the new guy a better base on which to build. Replacing the old guys (4OL, Kennison, Donnie Edwards, Surtain, and Law) is going to take some time. Let part of that replacement cycle happen under the lame duck, so that the new guy has a better chance of having a contender after 3 years.

On the other hand, there are several good reasons to make the change now.

1. He might Martyball himself to an 8-8 record or better next year by some miracle. I'd still want to replace him even if he made the playoffs. However, if he showed strong improvement it would be more difficult from a PR standpoint to replace him. Now you could easily justify it.

2. It would be better to have the new man's input in the draft and FA this season, so that person can get their style of players.

3. If Croyle is the QBOTF, it would be far, far better for him to develop under the new offensive-minded regime.

Whiffing? So you've determined after 14 games that neither of these guys will be solid NFL defensive lineman? Seriously?

WHIFFING is Eddie Freeman, Eric Downing, Junior Siavii and Ryan Sims. Guys who have NO place on an NFL roster.

Tank and Turk gained valuable playing time and learning experience. Claiming that they're "busts" after 14 games is tenuous at best.

ROFL Bob Gretz is that You?? Where are these talented players you speak of-oh yeah

Tank N Turk the Ultimate QB destroyers!!!!

Well they didn't show much in Camp, Preseason or after 14 games- I mean they have what 4 tackles between them???

How many tackles did Jared have his first year? You either have the talent or you don't. Many thought they were Bust picks to start-and unfortunately they look like Ryan Simms wanna be's so far.

But they are good at slap fighting.

Come on, Dude.

Hali
Pollard
Page
Smith
Croyle
Bowe

All of those guys are solid football players that will be in the league for years to come. They all may not be superstars, but great football teams have a solid core of good football teams a maybe one or two superstar players.

This team NEEDS good, solid football players. And they're finally starting to stockpile a few.

Tank Tyler has 8 tackles in 13 games, 5 solo.

Turk McBride has 10 tackes (7 solo) and 1 sack in 14 games.

Alfonso Boone was 20 tackles in 15 games and 1 sack.

Ron Edwards has 20 tackles in 15 games and 3 sacks.

So while their numbers aren't as high as the veterans, I don't know how many snaps each player has played. But IMO, they're doing "okay" and will only improve. It's not like either guy has hit his peak.

Out of how many picks? I really like Hali-could be an All pro-so I will give him that one. Bowe was a HUGE surprise as well.