What if Denkinger hadn't blown the call? Looks to me like Royals still win.
 

In honor of the series underway, I thought I would go back and see if I could step through "what might have been" for the good old Royals/Cards series of '85.

According to the records I have found, the Royals only recorded one out in the ninth since it was a home game and a walk-off win. Orta, the batter in question, was the out at third, and therefore didn't even score. So, assuming Orta had been called out at first instead of later at third, the following would have logically happened:

1. Orta is thrown out at first (1 out) - NOTE: This is the infamous blown call being un-blown.
2. Balboni singles (Runner at 1st, 1 out) - Conception in to pinch run.
3. Sundberg bunts, thrown out (Conception at 2nd, 2 out)
4. For the purposes of this, I will assume that the fielding problem for the Cards which advanced runners did not happen.
5. Hal McRae walks. (McRae on 1st, Concepcion on 2nd, 2 out)
6. Dane Lorg singles, Concepcion scores. (GAME TIED, runners on 1st and 2nd, 2 out)

After that - who knows? We have a runner in scoring position, and at the very least the game is going to extra innings with all of the momentum on the side of the Royals.

Granted, things probably wouldn't have gone down exactly like I have listed above since chaos theory dictates that the turn of events probably would have been different. Who knows what would have happened with McRae? It's reasonable to think they would have pitched to him and might have gotten an out, but it's definitely not a sure thing. It's also reasonable to say that Sundberg might have gotten a regular single instead of a fielder's choice bunt, which would have undid the net effect of a lead-off out by Orta to begin with.

The bottom line is that the Cards very clearly choked away the win in the bottom of the ninth.


For comparison, below is what actually happened according to Wikipedia:


Game 6
Saturday, October 26, 1985 at Royals Stadium in Kansas City, Missouri

Team 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
St. Louis 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 5 0
Kansas City 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2 10 0

WP: Dan Quisenberry (1-0) LP: Todd Worrell (0-1)

A pitcher's duel unfolded between Danny Cox and Charlie Leibrandt, the tough-luck loser in Game Two. They traded goose eggs until the eighth, when Brian Harper singled home Terry Pendleton to give the Cardinals the lead and inside track for the title. But the bottom of the ninth featured controversy and a collapse by the Cardinals.

Whitey Herzog called on rookie reliever Todd Worrell to pitch the ninth. The first batter, Jorge Orta, sent a routine bouncer to Jack Clark. He tossed to Worrell and got Orta for the seeming first out, but umpire Don Denkinger erroneously called Orta safe. Every replay angle indicated that Orta was out. Instead of one out, the Royals now had one on and slugger Steve Balboni at the plate. Balboni lifted a routine pop-up in foul territory along the first base dugout. Darrell Porter claimed he had it and then didn't, and the ball fell harmlessly behind Jack Clark. Given a reprieve, Balboni singled, putting runners at first and second with nobody out. Sent to bunt the runners over, Jim Sundberg's bunt was fielded perfectly by Worrell, and he threw out Orta at third.

But the rally stopper was undone when Porter's passed ball allowed the runners to move up and forced Herzog to walk Royals pinch-hitter Hal McRae. With the bases loaded and one out, pinch-hitter Dane Iorg looped a single to right field. Pinch runner Onix Concepcion scored the tying run and Sundberg approached the plate with the winning run. Andy Van Slyke's throw was on the money, but Porter made a short attempt to tag Sundberg, who slid home safely with the game-winning run.

After the game, Iorg got his nose broken when his teammates, led by 230 pound (104 kg) pitcher Mike Jones, mobbed him after his game winning hit.

Cardinal fans dont read.....so this is a waste of time...

But I agree with you.....

It will be the year 2050 and Cardinal fans will still be bitchin' about 1985

This thread will turn out well

This has been played out waaaay too many times.

Where is the smiley sitting in the recliner eating popcorn?

St.Louis has cooties.

And 10 of these.
http://www.skymtn.com/Travels/2007St..._WS_Trophy.jpg

That's really original... not! We still beat you and that's all that matters to me.

St.Louis sucks and I'm going to bed. SUCK IT!

Thats cool. Enjoy the one championship. The Royals earned it. We got over it. Maybe you should too?

Maybe you have, but most Card fans I talk to are still bitter. I hear about Denkinger every time '85 comes up. It would make more sense if it was the key play in the series, but in fact it was nearly irrelevant in terms of impact on the game, and has been magnified over the years to a point that it is given significant discussion every time the I-70 series comes up.

That's cool. If we are going to keep hearing about it, just thought I'd take the time to discuss the facts of the case.

even taking away the call, and the fielding error, it comes down to Conception scoring from second on a base hit which seems as likely as not

but you can't really play it out that way, the runners could have moved, something could have happened. and you wouldn't pitch the game exactly the same way with runners in different places would you?

i dont know any cards fans who were over it until they won another one. which is braggable, but... 22 years of sandy isn't much better than 25 or so.

I am a royals fan...but c'mon, this happened before I was evenn a sperm...time to give it a rest, cards seem to have made up the loss since then anyways...and, how many playoff appearances have we made since then? but still, all in all...
ROYALS WON!

No. But you also don't hit the same way. Sundberg might not bunt. McRae might not be intentionally walked. Who knows? It seems very reasonable to at least think the Royals would have gotten one run in that inning, which is all they needed to force extra innings.

It just seems to me that in most "legendary" sports controversies you have a lot more real substance than you had in the 85 series. Upon further review, this is too weak to allow the bitching to continue eternally without an occassional review of facts.

Its always context.

We were the better team in 1985 snd 1987 but we lost. We were not the better team in 2004 and lost. We were lucky to make the playoffs in 2006 and end up winning it all. Go figure.

And the 1985 team wasn't the best Royals team by far. You take 'em where you get 'em.

Suck it St loser.

From SI:

Royals' Blue (10.26.1985)
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Scenario: At a delirious Royals Stadium, umpire Don Denkinger rules Jorge Orta safe on an infield single that sparks a ninth-inning rally for the Royals in a 2-1 victory against the Cardinals in Game 6 of the World Series. Cards manager Whitey Herzog protested the call, and TV replays showed conclusively that Denkinger had messed up. The Royals kept rolling in Game 7, taking the I-70 Series and their first and only world title.
<o:p></o:p>
Replay ruling: Overturned (big-time)!
<o:p></o:p>
Rendered Result: No longer dismayed by Denkinger's call, Jack Clark easily handles Steve Balboni's foul pop-up for the second out. Pinch hitters Hal McRae and Dane Iorg each single, putting runners at the corners, but Todd Worrell strikes out Lynn Jones for the third out and the Cardinals second World Series title in four seasons. Instead of hate mail and death threats, Denkinger receives only an envelope from TV's Ed McMahon saying that he might already have won $1 million dollars, so he retires to semi-seclusion in northern <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:State w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Quebec</st1:place></st1:State>.

see, even 28 years later, you are still hanging on to 'we were still the better team'. well, it's funny you say that, because you lost a 7 game series head to head.

kind of sad since you have a trophy just in the past couple seasons to still be cranky about that one.

The Cardinals lost it mentally after that bad call and thats what COST them.
Everything else is insignificant. The Cards could have suited up little leaguers
after that bad call and the little leaguers would have had a better chance at winning than the Red Birds. It just goes to show how important being mentaly tough and mentaly prepared is to your job every day no matter what. You have to over come lifes curve balls at all time.

Another example of loosing it mentally would be the Cubs after Bartman screws up a foul ball. The cubs lost that game and the next one because they were so rattled mentally.


Denkingers delousional call cost the Cardinals the world series championship whether Royals fans wan't to admit that or not. I've read all the articles and listened to all the KC sports radio shows -i've read countless threads about this too....The fact is the cardinals lost all composure and there mental toughness like the cubs. The cardinals mental meltdown will live forever in WS history.

Denkinger will be the source of many beer toast's in KC forever. Its all Royals fans have.

The Plus side of "the call" is now umpires talk about it for ruling (to get it right). This play started it.

I respect St. Louis, and I would be a bit bitter, as well if the play had happened to KC by Denkinger. But, we only have 1, they have 10. But, they are kind of greedy and pissed off about wanting that 11th one... that we "stole" from them.

Bottom line, if Tudor plays like he has a pair in game 7, this would be a moot point.

This was always my argument with St Louie fans.

It was game 6 not game 7. The Cards didnt even bother to show up in game 7. Thats all on them.

See yesterday's game thread.

I distinctly remember a fairly prolonged argument about '1985'; with the Cardinal take being "We've let it go, but will respond when a random Royals fan inevitably brings it up again"...

Your honor, the Cardinals rest.

SSDY search and ye shall find.....