To those who wanted to rebuild
 

What changed? This question isn't intended for those who wanted Herm gone for years. It is for those that embraced the rebuild when you first heard about it this offseason. I'd say half the board was excited about the prospect of a real rebuild. People were thrilled that the team was going to go young and most people said they would be able to deal with a bad year as long as the young players got a lot of playing time and showed some improvement by the end of the year.

I know the Chiefs have been getting their asses kicked, but if you were for a complete Herm rebuild, why have you jumped ship? Why is your patience exhausted after 6 games?

This isn't a "rebuild" it's a cluster ****. Seriously, under Herm, there is zero direction.

I am still infavor of the rebuild, its not about W/L's. Its about development of players and gameplans that put young players into positions to succeed or at least try to succeed...

We are not progressing, we are getting younger, but not progression on gamedays. Our coaching staff is failing the players, blaming the players and spending to much time reviewing tape, while finding nothing to correct from that said tape...

To rebuild you have to be building toward something, right now they aren't building to anything.

We are showing 0 progress.

My patience isn't exhausted for the rebuild.

My patience is exhausted for the totally inept coaches.

To be fair though, I never liked any of these morons to begin with, with the exception of Gailey.

We've been worse than we should've been.

But that said, most football fans don't have the patience for a total gutting and rebuilding of the roster like we did... especially when you haven't won anything in forever, and have at least been "competitive" for about 20 years. I'm sure some of the people who always said for years that we need to have two or three top 5 picks didn't realize how bad the football would have to be to reach that point.

I want to see improvement with our Young players, but it seems like they are getting worse.

I'd say the defense regressing would be a major reason. Even the most optimistic fan knew the offense would be average at best, but our D is a joke.

Last I checked, Herm is supposed to be a defensive coach, oookkkaaayyy. This defense is like going to the prom. You're excited about the prom, show up to the prom, but there's no date at the prom. You find out later she's got her legs up in the air in the back of a Chevy, and all the while you're at the prom.

We dont even have a QB to build around and a LT that is developing a injury history...

The two most important pieces of any rebuild to a franchise...

How come?

At this point all I can hope for is we suck so bad that we get a new front office new coaching staff and the 1st pick to take a QB with.

The worst sign of this team is the Dline is all guys who were drafting by this regime in the last 3 years and they are getting killed to the tune of having the worst rush defense in the NFL and they get 0 sacks, so they can't do anything well I guess.

FYP

Nice sig Mr. Arrowhead, did you lose a bet?

Another thing, The DV excuse is all but used up... This is a Herm team, this is what he wants on sundays....

These are his players and his gameplans....

Its not the rebuild that is the problem, but the clowns in charge of this said rebuild.

I embraced the rebuild.

And I still believe the idea was/is the right idea.

Here's what has changed.

1 - Going into a year where we'll have to draft a QB high, I seriously question Herm Edwards & Carl Peterson's ability to evaluate a QB. Example: Just the fact that Herm had to play Tyler Thigpen to "find out" if he can play or not is ridiculous. Couldn't he see that in practice or pre-season?

2 - I have since come to question Herm & Carl's ability to evaluate or coach talent. Look at the D-line. Outside of Dorsey (don't get me started on him), it has 2nd & 3rd year players who are getting their @$$ kicked on a weekly basis. That's a complete failure up to this point.

3 - I have completely lost faith in Gunther. This guy has to not only be the DC but also the LBers coach. So what's happened? The LBers have regressed bigtime from last year. The coaching is simply awful.

I know we'll stink again next year and I'm fine with that. I'd just like it see it take place with a new GM & HC as I don't think our current ones will ever get the job done.

I wanted a pull it from the roots and rebuild.

I still support the rebuild.

I just wish it had happend at least 1 year earlier, and under semi-competent management.

This is a Marx brother's short...that is looped. Its not the funny one and the fan base is in a body cast,forced to watch.

I'm pretty certain Carl is force feeding us water, and herm kinked our collective cathater.

I heard the commentators say that now was a terrible time to take a flame thrower to the organization.

Really? The offensive line needs completed(3.5 spots) there isn't a QB on the team, the RB(that I argued against to ridicule) that CP re-signed is a cancer, the WRs outside of 1 suck balls(maybe the rooks get a pass) the HOF TE wants out, the Dline is out of position, lacks depth and blows...the LBs are in shambles outside of 1. The Secondary is the only position to feel very good about the potential at all, outside of maybe a properly coached Dline.

It seems like the PERFECT time to fire bomb the entire setup....A team cannot get much worse and still be called professional football.

I can deal with a 0-16 recored next year as long as we have a new GM, HC and staff...

and we see some sort of improvement...

Hell Herms best players was a DV draft choice... Go figure...

Marty selected Gonzo.

Well, I don't want to defend them... it's not working right now, but realistically it's not been the same.

Herm took over a team and did help develop some young players.. Abraham, Ellis, Pennington, lots of other guys... and not that he did a Belichick like job, but they had a lot of inexperience and they had 3 playoff births. You could do better, but that's not utter failure either. And obviously Carl turned this franchise in a different direction many ages ago. I think they've both shown the ability to build something playoff worthy, but neither has shown they can finish the job.

ROFL

yes, yes, I know that /Inspector Clouso

I was referring to Dustin Colquitt.....

Agree, but the fact that once he rides the coattails of the previous regime, he has yet proven he can build a team worthy of the NFL with his own players....

Christ his last 4 years would get most coaches banned from the NFL period.. 4-12, 9-7 (God's biggest miracle in the history of time, PLAYOFFS), 4-12 and who knows what this year is.. 3-13?

How can anyone survive that kind of stretch while showing zero adjustments or taking zero responsibility?

This is my thought as well. But I would like to add there are 3 starters on D. who are rookies. Dorsey and the 2 corners Carr and Flowers. IMHO the Corners haven't really been tested. Teams aren't throwing at them because why pass when you can run for chunks. The defense is just flat out horrible. So either the players we have suck ass which doesn't bode well for rebuilding. Or the coaching sucks which doesn't bode well for rebuilding.
Now I believe good coaching will make players play their best.
The majority of the defensive players have at least one year of experience. They should be playing better. But they continue to regress.

I'm for rebuilding, but...

When a team comes out and plays competitive with the Patriots then chokes against Oakland...

When, at 1-5 and seeing little to no improvement with the young players...

When young players who have been here 2-3 years, had better years as rookies than they seem to be having now...

When a number of solid veterans decide to either hang up the cleats or desire to relocate to a different team...

When a HC, in a press conference seems to have no idea what the problem is...

When your team tries to run an option - not once but multiple times with a 5'8" WR/QB in this league...

When you're HC doesn't communicate with his star players...

When you can't even compete with the bad teams in the league...


When all of these things are happening, it's sorta kinda easy to lose faith in the ability of the KC Braintrust to actually develop players to pull off the rebuild.

It's kind of like being in favor of taking some needed time away from work, Mr. Chiefnj2.

It's a good idea, but shooting yourself in the face with a 12 guage isn't the best possible way to go about it.

FAX

To rebuild, one does not have to be torn down to the bottom of the NFL. If the team is 32nd, then there is nowhere to go but up, but who cares if they only go up to 30th or 29th?

I view complete rebuild and Herm as two different issues and always have.

Rebuild, yes.

Under Herm, no.

To be fair, in order to completely rebuild, you need to start from scratch with a new GM and new HC. You cannot rebuild with a GM and HC, who could easily get fired after the end of this season, and if not, at least by 2009.

I wanted Clark to execute those two jokers at the end of last season, but he failed to do so.

Nice take for a MU Fan! Kidding!

HEY!!! I'LL HAVE YOU KNOW....


That as an MU fan, I can spot a non-functional "Rebuild". Afterall, I've been hearing "Rebuild" and waiting since the 70s for it. I thought we were finally close, but after the last 2 weeks, I think its just the best tease so far.



BTW, I noticed the "Edmond" - I was right by there today. Had to go to OKC for some meetings - I was just east of all the TV/Radio towers south of you.

To be fair, I think the O-Line can be easily fixed with this type of a idea. You move Taylor to center, move Rudy to the RG spot, thus nullifying Jones, who would be a idealistic back-up player, and draft a RT in the 09 Draft. The Chiefs also have Richardson as well, and I think he could be Brian Waters replacement by two or three years.

Now the 09 draft, it would be wise to get a QB. For unexplained reasons, if Stafford isn't there, and the next pick for a QB isn't until mid 1st round, and Oher, who is considered one of the top O-Linemen coming out in the 09 class, is there, do you pull the trigger on this? If so, then who's gonna play LT and RT?

My point being though, you can replace the scrubs (McGinatosh and Jones) with this type of a move, IMHO.

Can't disagree with any of these points.

The team came out and played against NE, then has regresssed every week, save Shanarat giving them a game.

What we are doing is the opposite of progress.

On important key is AS SOON as FA occurs we should have some competent QB FAs showing up in KC to talk contracts. Face it, every good QB we've ever had came from another team. Odds are that our starting QB problem is more likely to be fixed through Trade/FA than it will be through the draft.

If we can land a couple of QBs through FA, then we don't have to reach for a QB and can take the best player available.

I live just north of the TV towers by a couple of miles...

I will send you a PM and next time you are in town. Drop me a dime and lets meet up....

If Stafford isn't there....

You draft Oher, slide Albert to LG, Move Waters to RG. You then need a center and a right tackle. Herb Taylor can possibly be an adequate RT. False starts with n00bs just happen. You then need to fill one position on the line.

Now, that's not addressing the potential that Barry Richardson has. If he shows an ability to be a road grader RT or a RG, then you can have Waters play center and the entire line is secure, save Waters, for quite a while.

The team still needs two DE's, a FS, MLB, as well as a QB.

We just need to flush Herm and Carl and this won't look nearly as bad.

I'm sorry, but this is just fundamentally wrong. First of all, there are NO FA QBs worth pursuing.

Secondly, what do you notice about the Patriots, Colts, and Giants? All have home-grown QBs.

What worthwhile QB had the Colts developed in 40 years before Peyton Manning?

The Giants hadn't drafted a worthwhile QB in 25 years before Eli.

The Patriots had Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady, but missed horribly on a number of other QBs.

If that was the case, my scenerio would go like this.

Oher - LT
Waters - LG
Taylor - C
Rudy - RG
Albert - RT

Honestly, I don't think Waters have more than 3 years left to play at a very high level.

He's not really playing at a very high level now. Do you think that Taylor can play center?

The problem with our rebuild right now is the coaches and front office. I like that we've blown the roster up and sought to build it through the draft. I also think we have a lot of good players in place.

Now if we had coaches to make them great players.....

Until we correct the coaching and front office problems, and get a QB we're never doing anything.

Milkman has mentioned it several times, and I have as well. Taylor does have the smarts and he does held on his own very well at the RT spot. However, I don't think he's your prototypical RT. But Taylor uses his leverage pretty well to his advantage.

Isn't that what a center needs to use, leverage?

How can you call it a rebuild when we don't have a legit coaching staff or QB? What are we building around? Bad philosophy and sub-standard players at the most important positions (QB, LT, DE)?

This isn't a rebuild; this is a pack of monkeys and hyenas humping a football.

Really the blinded emotional hate of Carl and Herm have clouded alot of people's judgement for the real big picture. They are the major part of the problem but that should be taken care of soon, so lets look at the players. So no freaking Carl or Herm talk on the rest of this. Here is the depth chart of players that have shot at being something for the Chiefs:

QB - Croyle (backup QB or 3rd stringer, talent is there for that role)
RB - Charles, Smith, Savage
FB - Cox
WR - Bowe, Franklin, Bradley
TE - Cottam
T - Albert, Richardson, Taylor
G - Waters?
C - Rudy

DE - Hali, McBride, Johnston
DT - Dorsey, Tank
LB - Johnson, Williams, Walden
CB - Flowers, Carr
S - Morgan, Pollard, Page

The major needs are QB, DE, MLB, G, and Second WR. We got alot of the parts in place, there are some players that just need to be fit into there actual roles like Hali/Turk for example. They need to battle each on the LE spot. We are still 2 good drafts away from being really good. I think next year with the right draft and solid FA signings we can be back to the true fan range and then take up a spot after that.

If Stafford isn't there, trade down.

That said, I wouldn't mind taking Stafford with our first, and then seeing who falls into the second round. If Alex Mack or Brandon Spikes make it to us, we should be very happy.

Rudy kind of sucks...

I should also point out that Milkman did say that Taylor is more of a cerebral type of guy rather than being purely athletic.

he just sucks

When matching up on 3-4 NT's yeah, I can see that.

Even that, I think Rudy needs to go back to the G spot.

From the way people seem to think around here, franchice QBs grow on trees. KC has an interesting record with drafting "Franchise" QBs.

I took a look at KC's drafted QBs since their inception in Dallas on profootballrefference.com. They have drafted a total of 29 QBs, 9 of which were drafted in rounds 1-3. Let's take a look...

Eddie Wilson, 3rd round '62 - 1 start (resulted in a tie) 0-0-1
Pete Beathard, 1st round '64 (2nd overall pick) - 1-1
Mike Livingston, 2nd round '68 - 31-43-1
Steve Fuller, 1st round '74 (23rd overall pick) - 13-18
Todd Blackledge, 1st round '83 (7th overall pick) - 13-11
Brodie Croyle, 3rd round '06 - 0-8

Add in... David Jaynes (3rd '74), Mike Elkins (2nd '89), and Matt Blundin (2nd '92) who never got a start.


Yeah, KC has a stellar record of drafting QBs. Our "Franchise" QB prospects have a combined record of 58-81-2. Oddly enough, the ONLY QB we drafted and started with a winning record is the one QB I've heard called the biggest failure in KC draft history - Todd Blackledge.

Like I said, our track record of signing FAs and trading for QB has been more successull to this point than drafting a QB. Even Kreig, Bono, and GrBac have been better for us than those we tried to draft, that should say a lot about KC's ability to draft/develop a QB. And the three best QBs to ever chunk the ball for KC IMO came via trades, Dawson, Montana, and Green.



Would I like to see KC draft the next Manning or Brady - ABSOLUTELY! But rational thinking tells me that if we ONLY look for potential QBs in the draft, we're really limiting our chances at finding a succesful QB.

The Chiefs need to draft a first day QB every other year and a second day QB on the off years.

It's LUDICROUS to expect a team to find a franchise quarterback when they've only selected ONE round one, two round two and ONE third round draft choice in 25 YEARS.

Meanwhile, Green Bay took Mark Brunell, Aaron Brooks, Matt Hasselbeck and Aaron Rodgers while Favre was on the roster (hell, there were probably more - I'm going off the top of my head).

THAT'S the way to use the draft, ladies and gents.

Dane, we can't afford to take a QB the first day of the draft every other year. We need those picks at other positions to make up for all the busts we drafted the year before.

In all actuality, the best time to draft a QB IMO is when you have a really good one on the roster. It would have been a smart move to use the pick we spent on Sims, Savai, or one of the many other busts for some QBs while Green was here. Worst case scenario, the QB pick turns out just like those picks did.

Ingle Martin was one. Craig Nall was another.

Which is an argument for need-based drafting, which has been a horrible failure.

People need to understand the importance of positional valuing and drafting the best available player within that framework.

And that's what I mean.

If the BAA is a QB, you take him, regardless of need.

The Chiefs ****ed up the draft from basically 1989 to 2007. They drafted for need and not BAA (with the exception of DT and TG).

The roster's been devoid of home-grown talent since.

I don't know if they drafted him or not, but Kurt Warner was up there too.

Well not only that, but if you have the choice between a guard with a draft grade of 100 and a DE with a grade of 98, you take the end because that position impacts the field more.

Now if it's a guard vs. a TE and the guard has a better grade, you take him.

You might as well be speaking Chinese to most of the people around here.

BPA, BPA, BPA, BPA. If at #1 BPA is a K you take him, BPA, BPA, BPA, BPA.

I am still waiting for a real rebuild.

Thats what I don't get about a lot of people being against a new coach installing a 3-4. Our "rebuilt" D is worse than GRobs. I mean, aside from Dorsey being basically a waste if we went to a 3-4, what other harm would be done?

And OJ's looking for the real killers.

Even while in prison.

Johnson is borderline small for a 3-4 backer, we don't have a 3-4 NT (which is maybe the hardest position in football to find), so basically you'd be flushing Tank, Hali, Dorsey, and maybe Johnson too.

The talent is in place, the coaching is not.

Ok, I don't think we have all the talent yet. Our DT's and Corners are the only guys that I think we're somewhat set at. Every other D position could be upgraded. Derrick Johnson still disappears for 3 games for every great game he has. Sure, we should keep him, because he is still better than any other LB on the team.

Dick V. never trotted out a defense this bad.

That is grounds enough to fire everyone.

I am sure it's been said Herm Edwards is the Wrong Coach to rebuild this team or any other team .HE has to be the most incompetent Head Coach I have every witnessed ,hold on I will have to look at the tape & get back with you:doh!:

I'm still fine with it. I expect that next year will be very similar. It's not pretty or fun to watch but it needed to happen.

The long term debate will be whether Herm can get us to the other side.

You must not remember Frank Ganz as head coach.

Rebuild = good
"Rebuild" under Herm = bad, as Herm couldn't "rebuild" a pile of dirt, much less a football team.

This is not rebuilding. This is a team heading into oblivion and saying it's rebuilding. There is no plan and no progress is being made.

The President?

No I started watching the chiefs in 89. Herm is awful it's the Jets all over again wash rinse repeat .

I guess the most popular answer at this point is " I wanted to rebuild, and even though I expected a 5 or 6 win season, I'm really disappointed that we aren't losing by less points at this juncture."

It's not just the fact that we're losing. It's that we look completely inept. Our coaching staff does not appear to have a freakin' clue.

How impervious to reality do those people have to be? It's not like we haven't had numerous examples of the kinds of bad football teams who go through that experience over the years. The Rams of the 90's. The Raiders of the past several years. Detroit under Matt Millen. Cleveland. Cincinnati. Arizona. The list goes on.

I echo others' words. This isn't a responsible or well-thought rebuild. This is the equivalent of giving a McDonald's employee the tools and authority to build a highway. The highway is needed...and it's a good idea, but the drive-through guy isn't the person to do it.

You don't "rebuild" in the NFL. You get fired. End of story. There is a salary cap and free agency for a reason, too bad we refuse to take advantage of that based on the "fact" that we are "rebuilding".

Excellent question, Chiefnj2. It doesn't seem to matter what the Chiefs do. Short of winning a superbowl, bitching about the current approach, whatever it is, is the order of the day.

As for me, I agree that this rebuild should probably have started a year earlier, but I'll wait until I see what's happening in year 2 (2009) before I start getting uptight.

There has to be some building going on.

The idea is that you take a step back but see baby-steps forward.

There are no baby-steps. There is no raw talent producing on an irregular basis due to youth alone. It's suck. Its poor coaching, poor execution, poor scheme, and poor performance.

Not even poor. It's ****ing embarrasing. It's a joke and a full steam kick in the nuts weekly...

Forgive me...but this makes no sense to me. You wanted the rebuild to start a year earlier...presumably because it was obvious it was going to be needed. Yet...you don't see that by waiting another year that we are simply delaying the inevitable firing and re-tooling of our "rebuild"? Surely you can see that the coaching-issues we currently have are more obviously flawed than the age-issues we had two years ago? Even sports pundits admit that the Chiefs' age-issues snuck up on everyone.

I'm just trying to figure out why in the hell you're patient with the incompetence, but you were disappointed with a lack of action on this supposed "rebuild". Makes no sense to me.

I'm still fine with rebuilding. I just think we're rebuilding a team for a different coach. Herm appears to be in over his head on gameday.

It shouldn't have "snuck up" on anyone. It should have been pretty obvious that Green, Holmes, Roaf, Kennison, etc. were going to need to be replaced and the team slept on it.

I believed and still believe a complete rebuild was needed. I'm still on-board supporting my team. My only disappointment was how Carl and Herm did not adequately address the QB position, RG and RT. That disappointment existed before preseason started and exists still. I would feel better about RT if they put in Taylor or Richardson. RG and QB are just major disappointments.