Players think Herm is 4th Best Coach in the league
 

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sp...rhoden.html?em

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Sports of The Times
N.F.L. Players Evaluate Their Coaches

By WILLIAM C. RHODEN
Published: October 25, 2008
What do N.F.L. players really think about the coaches for whom they play and the franchises for which they work?

Michael Conroy/Associated Press
In a survey conducted last season, N.F.L. players picked the Colts’ Tony Dungy as the coach they would most like to play for.

Outside of sound bites and manicured postgame comments, the collective thoughts of players about coaches and teams have remained a mystery. Until now.

Last season, the N.F.L. players union commissioned the Wharton Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania to conduct an unprecedented survey of players. It was the first time players had been asked about issues related to their coaches. The survey asked players to name names, and the players overwhelmingly obliged.

Asked which active N.F.L. coaches they would most like to play for, the players picked Tony Dungy (Indianapolis Colts) followed by Lovie Smith (Chicago Bears) and Bill Belichick (New England Patriots). Herman Edwards (Kansas City Chiefs) was fourth and Mike Tomlin (Pittsburgh Steelers) fifth.

Asked to name the coaches they would least like to play for, the players named Tom Coughlin (Giants), Eric Mangini (Jets), Jon Gruden (Tampa Bay Buccaneers), Bobby Petrino (formerly of the Atlanta Falcons) and Belichick.

The naming of Belichick on both lists illustrated how players were willing to make compromises when it comes to winning.

The study is especially relevant at a time of midseason coaching changes, wide swings of performance levels from week to week and periodic episodes of player-coach confrontations.

“I think this survey is historic,” said Tukufu Zuberi, the chairman of the sociology department at Penn, who conducted the study with Camille Z. Charles, an associate sociology and education professor. “Nothing like it has ever been done before.”

Zuberi added: “You always hear sportscasters and analysts ranking teams and ranking the best coaches and what is important about being a good coach. It’s rare that the athletes themselves express their opinion. What this survey does is give the players a voice.”

A total of 1,440 players, or roughly 80 percent of those active in 2007, completed the study by the Wharton Sports Business Initiative, a research and executive think tank that is not a degree-granting program.

The players were asked questions in six major categories, including the most influential coach in their lives and the five most important attributes for a head coach. The players were also asked to identify the worst organizations in the N.F.L. (Oakland — no surprise there; Miami; Arizona; Cleveland; and Cincinnati) and the best (New England, Indianapolis, Dallas, Green Bay and Pittsburgh).

There was overwhelming common ground among the players despite their racial differences; 65 percent are African-American, 29 percent white, 3 percent Asian, 2 percent other and 1 percent Hispanic.

The good news for the N.F.L. is that 90 percent of the players said they respected their head coach, three-quarters said they trusted their head coach and 79 percent said their coach was top quality.

More than 50 percent of the players said their pro coach — not their college or high school coach — was the most influential coach in their lives.

According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.

There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players.

“Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.”

Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters.

Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players.

Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth.

Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth.

Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players.

“It’s not just a question of winning, it is a question of how the players feel about these coaches,” Zuberi said.

In contrast to the mainstream workplace, black players are an overwhelming majority in the N.F.L.

This can be interpreted as a true meritocracy where the best talent prevails. On the other hand, power is unequally distributed as one moves up the ladder. Six of the 32 head coaches are African-American, and the presence of African-Americans becomes more rare the higher one goes in management.

The black football-playing majority must answer to a predominantly white power structure, which includes team executives and owners.

Given the disparity in trust and respect between blacks and whites, the study suggested a new model is needed for franchises that hope to get the most out of their players. This means going beyond simply relying on a cluster of veteran players to maintain order in the locker room. They must hire and promote respected African-Americans and place them into positions of power and authority.

Communication also requires a franchise to ask itself tough questions: Who can get the most out of players? Who can best understand players? Who has the greatest insight? Who can best speak to the culture?

It was no coincidence that black players listed four African-American coaches among their top five.

“These are just the players’ opinions,” Zuberi said of the study, “but we haven’t been listening to those opinions.

“A coach’s ability to coach should be balanced against his ability to gain the trust and respect of the players. Players are expected to respect and trust the coach. The coach needs to do the same for the players.”

•

The study was intended to be the first in a series of annual player surveys that will examine a variety of aspects of N.F.L. franchises — including the front office and ownership.

N.F.L. players have long been viewed as parts to be moved about without much consideration given to what they think.

If the survey proves anything, it’s that players have perspectives and opinions. The question is whether management is listening.

Yikes.

Players are kinda stupid.

This article makes that blatantly obvious.

God...god DAMMIT.

You know, there are a lot of black players in the league.

I wonder if this is just reverse racism.

So my question is all 1440 players played for all of the same coaches?

No way :eek:

And to think all this time I was wrong about Herm. He must really be one hell of a coach.

Gotta say it. 4 of the top 5 are Black.

Teh league is probably 80% black or more. Coinky dink? Doubt it.

Then there are a lot of stupid players.

That list of the top five looks more like a question of "Who doesn't belong in this group"

"4 of the 5 listed coaches are competant, capable coaches, who isn't?"

Them blacks support there own no matter what kind of legal troubles they have or how stupid they coach a football team.

Reverse racism.

To be fair, Belicheck was also in the bottom 5.

Hell I'd work for Herm too if I could get a team to pay me millions a year, and NOT have to do anything to collect on it.:D

When I met Brian Billick in Baghdad last February he spoke very highly of Herm and said that he was very well respected all around the NFL. I think Herm is considered a very high character leader and that he has a reputation for being virtuous and a players' coach.

Herms win/loss ratio and his awful play calling and decisions is enough for any reasonable person to not place him that high on the list.

Other NFL coaches aren't going to say if they think another coach is an a-hole, or he does a piss-poor job of coaching.

Did you expect him to say anything different?

Herm has no business rebuilding or coaching an NFL franchise... He has proved it over the last 4 years he is clueless, unless he has someone's elses players....

How is Belichick not at the top of the list, followed by any coach thathas been to the Super Bowl?

Jesus.

Just more evidence that we, as fans, care fr more about our team and wins than the average player.

Were you there? Billick was quite sincere, he had nothing to lose by speaking candidly about Herm. I believe him.

I seen him right after he talked you you, he was laughing, saying something about some people will believe anything you tell them.

Based on this article, it seems that players care about their quality of day to day life more than what fans perceive as the overall ability of a head coach. The worst coaches were the white drill sergeant type - Belichick, Coughlin, Gruden, Magnini. These guys yell, scream, fine and run a tight ship.

It raises several observations in my mind. First, if the majority of players (black players) don't care for white coaches who scream at them then that would explain the semi-lack of success of Gunther and Krumrie.

Second, since the players seem to value coaches who are "player coaches" rather than X's and O'x guys, that could mean the players don't believe coaches play as much of an important of a role as fans think.

Pretty cool article.

Good for you, but most of us judge Herm on game days, not by what someone said about him...

So far 5-18 over the last two years isnt getting it done...

Not me. If I was a coach, I'd love for more teams to be coached by Herm clones. That would only help to make me look like a better coach with the extra victories.

Soft-touch coaches. That's all.

The attutide is probably I'm a grown ass man. Now talk to me like a man instead of yelling at me like I am still in high school. Some players no matter what level shut it down if you berate them all the time.

Happens in high school. It's ridiculous.
A good coach knows what buttons to push with which players. But sometimes it's good to make an example out of a shithead kid, just so some of the other shitheads know they aren't getting a free ride.

That example is 10x better if that shithead is actually a producing player.

Beyond the race issue players like to play for players coaches. Herm is definitely considered a players coach. Players coaches can have some success but if I were choosing a coach I would choose someone who is going to push the players. Obviously Herm is not pushing his players to bigger and better things with only a few exceptions.

I didn't read the entire thread, so I don't know if this was already addressed. But it said White players listed Herm 6th on their lists, above Holmgren.

we got a player's coach, now we just need a coach's GM and actually have some players too....

For those who chose Edwards 4th - I wonder what thier Wonderlick Test scores scores were?

Yep. Just like in society. It's always about race and when people point out the obvious - THEY get accused of being racist. :shake:

Are you reading the article or just spouting off rants?

Black players listed him 4th
BUT
White players listed him 6th; above Mike Holmgren.

that's not alot of disparagement.

To those of you in the cheap seats throwing around the race card:

Edwards was sixth among white players.

Sixth.

Out of 32.


It has nothing to do with race, and everything with players wanting to play for a guy who's considered a "players coach."

Like chiefnj2 said, maybe players don't think coaches play as important a role as the fans do.

look at the coaches that win super bowls. six of the last eight super bowls have been won by guys not considered player's coaches (belichek, cowher, coughlin, gruden).

honestly, the ideal coach isn't a drill instructor, nor is he a soft touch. the ideal coach (as it's been mentioned) knows which buttons to push on which player--although I'd like said coach to be a bit more towards disciplinarian than player's best friend.

look at wade phillips and the cowboys. they performed their best under the tuna, and are folding under wade phillips, a notorious player's coach (who's also been undermined by his owner)

I think Cowher would be a player's coach.

I know I'd consider him one.

tell that to kordell stewart.

he seems like a no-nonsense kind of guy from the schottenheimer school of coaching. his teams always had it all put together, which isn't exactly the mark of a player's coach.

And how about Singletary, he had a hard line this last weekend, but I'd bet he's viewed as a player's coach too.

What's with the perception that players coaches are soft? I don't get it....

I thought a players coach was more of a coach who actually played the game and the players could respect what they said more because of it. Not because they yell or not.

THIS.

Anyone whos been to a DV camp, and a Herm camp, knows why players would prefer Herm. Players hate camp to begin with, but will always prefer the soft approach. Herm is soft. His teams are soft. His results are soft.

Well the NYJ fans didnt call training camp "Club Herm" for nothing....

Of course players like soft training camps and practices, less they have to exert to earn that paycheck.. Hence, Herm is somewhat loved by players, unless they are HOF players and demand to be traded...

Yes, because every player in the NFL is lazy and doesn't want to practice... they're all just collecting a paycheck... :rolleyes:

Come on man...

just goes to show you these players have no clue and dont care about winning, it happens all the time.
When a team is gonna get rid of a coach the players start lobbying for a black head coach all the time, it happend in the NBA with the Cavs and Wizards.

Good African American Head coaches in the NFL right now
Tony Dungy,Tomlin and soon to be Mike Singletary
Art Shell was decent the first time around.

others that stunk and should of never gotten the job in the first place, Lovie,Herm,Denny Green, these guys were always bums!!

Next thing ya know Ty Willingham will replace Homgren in Seattle,lol

Thats what Herms wife has said!! honey are you there? Hermie baby your to soft!!

Well I appreciate your loyalty to Herm, but dont be such a tool here...

I didnt say that every player in the NFL is lazy, I said "players like soft training camps and practices, less they have to exert to earn that paycheck".

What person in America wants to work their assess off when they can relax a little and still get paid?

I wonder if Kawika Mitchell preferred the soft Herm approach on a bad team, the drill sergeant approach of Coughlin with a Super Bowl ring, or the middle of the pack white guy coach with Jauron on an up and coming team?

I just clicked on one of the links in the main article and I am very surprised.

The players ranked Coughlin 31 out of the 32 head coaches. They had Linehan, Kiffen, Childress, Marinelli and Petrino all above him. Hell, Mike Nolan is ahead of Jauron and McCarthy.

They also have KC ranked as a better organization than the NYG.

I guess that is proof that players care more about paychecks, and an easy work schedule that winning games...I bet Marty was DEAD LAST when he was a coach

My point was that a lot of players got to where they are because of how hard they work in practice. They want to work hard everyday. Some skilled players come by their talent naturally, and can effortlessly glide through practice without needing the constant work and improvement. But the majority have to bust their asses day in and day out to stay on top of their game. Some of these guys would be at a disadvantage in soft practices.

It sounded like you were lumping all players into the same mindset as to what they would want from practice.

No I wasnt, but your brought up a great point..

I agree, you cant take a dedicated athelete and a true professional and put him on a staff with Herm and expect them not to falter or fail.

There has to be a fine line between too much (DV) or no clue (Herm) on practices.

I do agree, they have worked hard to get there, but knowing that you are getting serious jack to take a lighter load in practice, I doubt many would turn that down....

Psssst, Johnny come over here, I need to tell you all the dirt on your POS coach. Dude, I know we've just barely met but that Herm Edwards is one really terrible coach. You should find a new team immediately and since the $100 you spend every 3 years on NFL merchandise will directly impact my own paycheck we'd sure like to have you with the Ravens. How about a care package? /Billick

There's a subtle difference between "best coach" and "coach players want to play for".

This Keg guy gets it.

Apparently 50 odd people in KC think that way :D

I don't know whether the criticism for Herm's practices is justified or not, as I've never seen his normal non-public practices. But I do know that DV was doing something right, as was displayed by his team's effectiveness at offensive execution. They ran that shit till they were perfect at it. And I know that wore on some players such as Roaf.

I don't think that the majority are looking for the easy money maker though. You have to have a certain dedication level to even get to where they are. I doubt that laziness and looking for the easy ride would keep a guy in the league for very long...

Could it be that players take a beating day in, day out, and think it's ridiculous to take 3 hours to practice when you can accomplish the same thing in 90 minutes?

But they didn't accomplish the same thing.

they know Herm is and idiot
and can be used like Redrum's mom

ROFL

Not even close....

?

Running a upbeat, precise practice to accomplish your plans for the day is better than taking 3 hours to accomplish those same plans, correct?

I think some of you have confused a high school practice with what is done in the NFL...

Not if the the upbeat practice leads to poor execution on gameday resulting in one of the worst offenses in the league, whereas the long practice led to great execution and one of the best offenses in the league. Correct?

Players, the vast majority of players, are Retreaded morans.

What, exactly, did those long practices do for the defensive side of the ball?

If only it were all that simple then we could get DV back to run 3 hour long Offensive practices and get our O back. What has to be done to get a good D?

There are way too many variables for your analogy to even be considered outside of a fantasy realm....

most of you are confusing the term "best coach" with "most successful coach".

Not a damn thing but total destruction of confidence.

The same thing as Herm's short practices. At least the O and ST's were much better.

And that had to do with the length of practice, or the talent level?

I guess the Patriots practiced 4 hours a day during the early part of this decade?

DV had guys going out for 3 hours to the point that Willie Roaf specifically cited DV's practices as the reason his career ended early. And Vermeil's teams were the softest bitches this side of the Pillsbury Doughboy.

Both. Why is it so hard for you to accept that according to the players DV had them run through plays until they were executing perfectly and that might have helped them execute properly on game day?

and why is it so hard for you to accept that maybe practice length is only one part of a 200 part process for success? You are putting all your eggs in one basket, hanging on to just this one theory.

It's hard to accept because it didn't benefit the other side of the ball.

The defensive players were part of those same practice routines, yet they DIDN'T execute on gamedays.

It isn't necessary to run a 3 hour practice to be successful on gameday.

Ask any coach in the league.

Your reading comprehension sucks balls. I said "both" to WP's question about talent and/or practice times.

Per the report, here are the two authors of the survey. It's too bad that they didn't use a well-respected market research run by a football fan who wouldn't have approached the survey with an underlying motive.

Tukufu Zuberi is the Lasry Family Professor of Race Relations. He is also the
Director of the Center for Africana Studies, and Chair of Sociology Department.
As an internationally-known social scientist, Professor Zuberi has made
important contributions in the study of sociology, research methods, and
population studies. Professor Zuberi is the author or editor of seven books or
edited journal volumes. He is the author of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot: The
Mortality Cost of Colonizing Liberia in the Nineteenth-Century, published by the University of Chicago Press in 1995; and Thicker Than Blood: How Racial
Statistics Lie, published by the University of Minnesota Press in 2001. He has
just completed a manuscript on the history of Timbuktu, entitled Timbuktu: Pearl of the African Sea that will also be filmed as a documentary for PBS and National Geographic. He is the series editor of the General Demography of Africa (a multi-volume series). He has written more than 50 scholarly articles and co-edited four volumes. Professor Zuberi has edited or co-edited special issues of the December 2000 Black Scholar on “Transcending Traditions: African, African Diaspora, and African American Studies in the 21st Century;” the March 2000 issue of The Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science on “The Study of African American Problems: Papers In Honor Of W.E.B. Du Bois,” and a volume of Race and Society on Racial Statistics. He is co-editor of the recently published The Demography of South Africa, published by New York: M.E. Sharpe; and White Logic, White Methods: Racism and Methodology, published by Rowman and Littlefield.


Camille Zubrinsky Charles is Associate Professor of Sociology and Education,
and Faculty Associate Director of the Center for Africana Studies at the
University of Pennsylvania. She is author of Won’t You Be My Neighbor: Race,
Class and Residence in Los Angeles (Russell Sage, Fall 2006), which examines
cross-cutting, individual-level factors thought to influence aggregate housing
patterns, and co-author of The Source of the River: The Social Origins of
Freshmen at America’s Selective Colleges and Universities (2003, Princeton
University Press). She also has two other book projects underway: Taming the
River: Negotiating the Academic, Financial, and Social Currents in Selective
Colleges and Universities (co-authored with Douglas S. Massey and colleagues;Princeton University Press), is the second in a series based on data from the National Longitudinal Survey of Freshmen. Race-ing Through College: Black Students at Selective Colleges and Universities is a sole-authored project.

And that suddenly validate's your stance? :spock:

You're right. Herm's camps have paid great dividends on all sides of the ball.

yeah i think Herm practices for 3 hours on how to run the ball 3 times up the gut and and then works on yelling punt team kick it down in there!