Underclassmen QB's in the draft.
 

Okay, I know that Leaf was a junior. Probably the worst. Showed very quickly that he was not mature enough to make it in the NFL.

Mike Vick came out as a Junior, but again, lacked maturity.

Vince Young was a junior, and has had a mental breakdown.

Aaron Rodgers was a junior, but he was taken later in the first round.

Flacco and Ryan, last year's wonder rookies.... were both seniors.


I see a lot of red flags from Sancez. He was arrested for sexual assault. (I know, this girl was just out for money.... only he was a couple years removed from going pro, and there was no way for her to profit from it at the time, and her mother was the one who called the police)

He only has 16 games of experience and didn't listen to Pete Carroll or his parents that all advised him to go back to school.

He then hires his brother.

So, my question is, has anyone come into the NFL as a junior as a top ten pick that came in and set the NFL on fire?

I mean, Aaron Rodgers was on the bench for three years prior to the Packers leaning on him as there starter.

Do we want a three year waiting period for our QBOTF?

Anyways, I think QB has to be the most level headed and mature position on the field. I see none of that in Sanchez.

In fact, all I see is an arrogant primadonna that isn't smart enough to know what he doesn't know.

There is probably a junior I am misisng. I would love it even more if there is a junior that has on 16 games starting experience and came in as a top pick and set the world on fire.

That's too small of a sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions from.

You're a ****ing idiot.

I am not just saying these guys. I am saying in the history of the NFL, has there been an underclassman at QB that has come in and lit it up?

An honest question.

Yes, because I am not willing to rationalize a QB is worth the pick, just because we have it.

Yes, because I am not willing to overlook the sexual assault and his other questionable decisions.

Yes, because I am not willing to overlook that he played for USC and was surrounded by great talent and a great coaching staff, and that 'probably' helped him look pretty good.

Now, do you have any juniors that came out and went in the top 10 that turned out to be great.

Again, I am not saying none have made it.... just wondering who and when.

Oh, and do you think hiring your brother as your agent is a 'good' move?

Look at this.

You wrote this.

Is this "sensible"?

Well here is the list of quarterbacks who came out early since 1998.

Brock Huard Washington 1999
Josh Booty LSU 2001
Quincy Carter Georgia 2001
Michael Vick Virginia Tech 2001
Bret Engemann Brigham Young 2003
Rex Grossman Florida 2003
Derek Jones West Virginia 2003
Ben Roethlisberger Miami (Ohio) 2004
Matt Mauck LSU QB 2004
Aaron Rodgers California 2005
Alex Smith Utah 2005
Walter Washington Temple 2005
Omar Jacobs Bowling Green 2006
Brandon Kirsch Purdue 2006
Marcus Vick Virginia Tech 2006
Vince Young Texas 2006
JaMarcus Russell LSU 2007
Xavier Lee Florida State 2008

Thank goodness! This board had gone almost 20 minutes without a new thread about Stafford/Sanchez.

So, you don't have any junior Qb's in the top ten either that have come out and been successful?

I guess, maybe, that is what Pete Carroll was telling the kid.

Now, what many fail to realize is that a ton of kids have looked good on tape for a season. It isn't that uncommon. It is even more common when you have that kid surrounded by good coaches and good talent.

Here are the list of red flags:

#1) Lack of experience.
#2) Sexual Assault arrest.
#3) Didn't listen to his coaches or his parents in leaving school early.
#4) Hired his brother as his agent.
#5) Poor combine performance.

Just not sold on the guy. But, then again, I try to be sensible and realize that a great linebacker, WR or even RT is better than a bust at QB.

I know that the 'in crowd' on here struggles with that.

You are a ****ing idiot because you base this whole immaturity argument and call him an arrogant prima donna based on the fact that he chose to go into the draft in spite of the advise he got from his family and Pete Carroll.

You have no idea what he had going through his mind when he was weighing his decision.

You have no idea what guys like Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart, who he talked with, had to say to him that affected his decision.

The fact, making an assumption that he's immature and arrogant based solely on that decision is about the single stupidest thing I've ever heard.

You also refuse to consider any other thing when it comes to your viewpoint.

It doesn't matter to you that the DA found no evidence to support that girl's claim, and in fact, it has been posted elsewher that they had clear evidence she lied to police when she told them she and Sanchez left the bar together, because video shows that she left the bar alone.

All your dumbass has is that you don't like Sanchez, so you are going to disparage him in any way you can.

I hope your dumbass falls backwards on to a Roberto Alomar tree stump.

Big Ben is as good as the list gets. And, he was a three year starter in college.

Michael Vick was never the great traditional QB. And, unless Sanchez can run a sub 4.4... then probably doens't compare to Vick.

This isn't to say that Sanchez can't be great, but surely don't see any historical reference that suggest he will.

So Sensible based on your historical evidence, who would you draft at the #3 spot that will be a sure walk to the HOF?

Didn't see the part where the girl had lied to the police. I started doing more research on the kid because I WANTED to like him. The Chiefs NEED a franchise QB. They have the third pick. It would be nice to feel like he was worth the pick. That is when I ran into that story.

Do you have a link about the girl llying to police?

Yes, I do think it shows imaturity to leave school early. It shows he wants to get his payday. Football is about more than just getting paid. If not, then I don't want you leading my team.

Finally, the hiring of his brother as his agent shows how arrogant, ignorant and immature this kid is.

It will be interesting to see how his career pans out.

But, for the record, you couldn't give me a guy that came out after his junior year and set the NFL on fire. Especially not one with 16 games experience.

I know, I am the one not wanting to see anyone elses side on this.

:bravo:

1. Shocking that you hadn't seen this. It's been discussed so many ****ing times it's unbelievable.

2. We should draft only seniors. Juniors bad. Seniors good.

3. Yes, how unbelievably stupid for the kid to surround himself with people whom he trusts. Family. Stupid. And has been pointed out numerous times, his brother isn't the only one helping him with this process.

Grandma Ople's Apple Pie SUBMITTED BY: MOSHASMAMA PHOTO BY: notyouraveragegranny

"This was my grandmother's apple pie recipe. I have never seen another one quite like it. It will always be my favorite, and I hope it becomes one of your favorites as well!"

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PREP TIME 30 Min
COOK TIME 1 Hr
READY IN 1 Hr 30 Min
Original recipe yield 1 - 9 inch pie

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INGREDIENTS (Nutrition)
1 recipe pastry for a 9 inch double crust pie
1/2 cup unsalted butter
3 tablespoons all-purpose flour
1/2 cup white sugar
1/2 cup packed brown sugar
1/4 cup water
8 Granny Smith apples - peeled, cored and sliced
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DIRECTIONS
Melt butter in a sauce pan. Stir in flour to form a paste. Add white sugar, brown sugar and water; bring to a boil. Reduce temperature, and simmer 5 minutes.
Meanwhile, place the bottom crust in your pan. Fill with apples, mounded slightly. Cover with a lattice work of crust. Gently pour the sugar and butter liquid over the crust. Pour slowly so that it does not run off.
Bake 15 minutes at 425 degrees F (220 degrees C). Reduce the temperature to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C), and continue baking for 35 to 45 minutes.
FOOTNOTE
Baking pie is a rather straightforward technique, but a few tips can only help to make your pies come out looking and tasting perfect!

I don't have the link to the specific info about that incident that somenone else talked about.

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr...s/sp-sanchez27

Yeah cause no one else has any concerns about money.

And he hired his brother, as well as hiring an experienced agent to represent him.
But he's so immature because he hired a family member to look after his interests.

Sensible is the biggest misnomer ever.

Tips for making a fruit pie:

Baking Fruit Pies
By: Allrecipes Staff

There's a fruit pie for every season: strawberry-rhubarb for spring, cherry in summer, pear in the fall, and apple in winter.

Baking fruit pies is a rather straightforward technique, but a few tips can help to make your pies come out looking and tasting perfect.

1. Preheat the oven to the temperature the recipe you are following recommends. Most fruit pies bake at a temperature of between 350 degrees F (175 degrees C) and 450 degrees F (230 degrees C). Some recipes call for baking the pie in a 450 degree F oven for the first part of baking, then turning down the oven to about 350 degrees F. This helps set the shape of the crust in recipes that contain a lot of fat; it can keep your crust from slouching.
2. To add a richer color to a double-crust or lattice-topped pie, brush the top crust with milk or lightly beaten egg before baking.
3. Baking a pie with a raw fruit filling will take about an hour. Always bake pies on a baking sheet to prevent spillovers in the oven. Berry, apple, and pear pies cook for approximately 45 minutes. When using a pre-cooked filling, pies can bake at a higher temperature for a shorter period of time, just enough to thoroughly bake the crust and heat the filling.

To check the doneness of the filling, insert a knife into the center of the pie. If it meets with little or no resistance, the pie is done. If the pie is not quite done but the top or edges are becoming too dark, loosely cover the top of the pie with aluminum foil to shield it from the heat. A glass pie dish is a great way to ensure the bottom crust is fully baked; using a baking stone or pizza stone is another trick. Baking on a stone ensures that the bottom crust on even the juiciest fruit pie will be done when the top is brown.

See Perfect Pie Crusts for more information.


Perfect Pie Crusts
4. For shine and sparkle, thin a quarter cup of light corn syrup with very hot water. When the pie is done, brush the thinned syrup over the top of the crust. You can add granulated sugar or decorative sugar at this time. Return the pie to the oven for two to three minutes to let the glaze dry and set. Once the pie is done baking, carefully remove it from the oven. Let the pie cool to room temperature before slicing to allow the filling to set.

1. Sorry.

2. When junior QB's have a history of failure, one might think twice before doing it. But, that wouldn't play into the franchise QB at all costs crowd. Not saying he isn't worth drafting, just not at #3.

3. LOL. Well, anyway to rationalize, I suppose. There are some things that you leave up to professionals.

This is what I'm talking about. I'm not saying ya or nay on Sanchez, (actually I like him) But calling someone a ****ing idiot and that they should have bodily injury for questioning Sanchez? Really?
And Pot you're a little black calling someone out for disparaging a prospect just because you dont like them. (see Curry)

I dont care if he's a nOOb, a vet, or claiming the sky is purple, show just a little respect. If not for him then for the board.

So, as long as the info is positive, then you can take it at face value concerning Sanchez. Got it. No actual proof that the girl lied.

As far as his money.... it is a bad sign that he is so worried about it now.

As far as his brother being his agent. If this was the only issue, it would be a non issue.

I just think there are enough red flags that you don't take him #3 overall.

It will be interesting to see where he goes in the draft. If the Chiefs take him at #3 I will change my account to insensible Chiefs fan.

I am sure that Pioli and Haley are smart enough not to do it.

I don't believe I've ever downplayed Curry's talent.

I'm pretty sure that all I've ever said is that he hasn't shown he's a pass rushing LB, and that isn't good value for the #3 overall pick.

If you are looking to rid the board of hotheaded opinionated fans, then you might as well shut down Chiefsplanet.

But, it shows how insecure he is in his opinion is that he can't debate it rationally without hurling insults.

.

OK, we can debate "sensibly". No, other than Rothlesburger, no junior QB has been "successful". But show me how prior QB play has any bearing as to how future QB's play.

Its all good. I'm looking at who's said what etc. Some have, some havent. We just all seem a little on edge lately thats all.:p

We have seen example after example of QB's coming out with little experience and flaming out in the NFL. Akili Smith was a senior, but actually had starting experience similar to that of Mark Sanchez.

It isn't just his lack of experience. It is his ability to handle the pressure of being a high first round guy and a 'savior' of a franchise.

For crying out loud, the kid looked tight at the combine today.

See, I am not 'trying' to bash the kid. I WANT to believe in him. I want the Chiefs to have a great QB. I want him to be worthy of the #3 pick.

But, every stone I uncover about him, I find another red flag.

I was really hoping to see him spin the ball well today at the combine and he was very dissapointing. I would have thought he had an arm like Marino from the gaga posters on this board.

He had a long delivery, a slow release, the balls didn't have a ton of zip on them AND he wasn't accurate.

All the things I thought were his 'positives'... he failed to deliver on today.

I just don't think he has the maturity to handle the NFL. I think his parents and his coaches know him better than we do... well, at least better than I do.

But, again, I am just trying to look at all angles.

I don't think a ILB is worth the #3 pick. I don't think a WR on this team is worth the #3 pick. I don't think a RT is worth the #3 pick.

However, I would rather have great players at those positions than a bust at QB in the name of attempting to draft a franchise QB.

JMO.

No, I called you names because you I made a couple of concessions in our debates, and you refused to even attempt to meet in the middle.

So, go fist yourself.

Well, to be fair, when making decisions, history is something that needs to be looked at. If there is completely overwhelming history as there is in this case, there better be NO questions, and I just don't see that being the case here.

Akili Smith is a great comparison.

I know this is supremely unimportant, but what type of offense was Smith coming from again?

Oh yeah. Those little details can be a bitch sometimes.

Do you think in a year or two he'll have the maturity to play in the NFL? Or is he a lifelong rapist.

To make sure this isn't obscured by being at the bottom of the page.

Overwhelming history?

That list of QBs has three QBs who I believe were first round picks, of which only one, Alex Smith, might be considered to be on his way to busting.

That would be considered overhelming?

Michael Vick Virginia Tech 2001
Rex Grossman Florida 2003
Ben Roethlisberger Miami (Ohio) 2004
Aaron Rodgers California 2005
Alex Smith Utah 2005
Vince Young Texas 2006
JaMarcus Russell LSU 2007


Well these are all first rounders, so there have been 7 actually since 1998. I would say that all but Ben and Rodgers have been pretty underwhelming, and the jury is still out on Russell.

Well, if for once in your life you actually knew what you were talking about instead of immediately agreeing with one of about 5 posters, your opinion may actually mean something.

Coming from you, that actually means alot... ROFL I failed to realize your opinion is well respected thoughout the NFL... Just like the rest of ours... ROFL

Hmm, didn't think I said that at all. It's just funny to watch you follow posters who actually make a point, like Milkman, Mecca, Hamas, etc, and just post bullshit that doesn't mean anything at all.

You 'concessions' were justifications about his poor performance today. The 'pressure' got to him. (That is what I want in a QB, someone who caves under the pressure of working out in shorts and a t-shirt).

I would go fist myself, but I've got my hands full... one hand is in your mom the other is in your sister.

You're making a very reductive argument here.

So, yes, at first glance one can say only Roethlisberger and Rogers are looking like strong selections. But let's factor in other elements, like the biggest one: what type of offense were these players running in college?

I'm sorry, anyone who couldn't see that Vince Young was going to be a ****ing disaster was a complete idiot, even more than Young himself with his 6 Wonderlic.

You can't just look at this list and say, "Yep. 33% change of success."

But even if you did do that type of half-ass analysis, 33% chance of landing a franchise QB is pretty damn good.

I think he would be fine as a developmental prospect, but that isn't worth the #3 pick. #3 picks are supposed to be polished players that are ready to play this year, and be impact players next year.

As far as the rapist goes, don't know. Maybe that is why he coming out, so he will have the money to buy the silence of the girls he sexually assaults.

For the record, that was a joke. I am sure that some will blow it out of proportion.

I also conceded that his workout could very well hurt his draft status, dumb****.

And just for the record, I chose not to answer your question who the agent is.

I was the one who first posted his name a couple of days ago.

For any position other than QB this should be the case.

I'm not attempting to make any kind of an argument on this subject. All I did in this thread was answer the original poster's question and post the facts of who was drafted, and then when Milkman said there were 3 first rounders, I pointed out there were 7. I mean, I understand what you are saying about what kind of offenses these guys were running in college and all that, but it is funny that the only one of these guys who has proven anything, Roethlisberger, also came from a spread offense, and he seems to be OK.

Yet, neither of the guys that are successes, Rothlisberger and Rodgers were top five picks. Neither had that pressure to deal with.

Then I'd say your expectations of a QB are way too high.

Yep, this is 100% true. In fact, you are the only "Sanchez guy" who has admitted this so far.

Two stupid quarterbacks who look to run rather than pass, another guy who came from a system that was notorious for producing overrated prospects...and this is your sample size?

Not at QB.

Ryan, Flacco and Peyton Manning were exceptions.

Most QBs, even top 5 guys, should be able to watch and learn for at least a season, or at the least, half a season.

Well, I HOPE that Sanchez is better than Akili Smith. But it just shows how a guy can have one good year and then cash in.

Qb's need maturity and experience. I don't see it with this kid.

Yeah, sorry, I made a cursory glance at the list, and ****ed up.

Running QB
Spread QB
Spread QB (made it work, future HOFer most likely)
Rodgers
Spread QB
Running Spread QB
Notoriously Lazy QB.

If I were looking at this list, I'd say it tells me one thing:

Don't take a QB from the spread.

At some point either this year or in 2011 we are going to have to draft and develop a QB...

Are we willing to throw away the next two seasons waiting on the 2011 draft class? People seem to think there are two ways to aquire a QB...

Do we want to have the "team" in place than have to sit around and watch guys get older, contracts expire, FA, etc, before we finally draft a QBOTF and invest the time into building a championship team?

Or do we draft one this year and start developing him so in 3 years we are maybe in place to make a playoff push to a championship?

Such a tough window we are in right now with nothing to speak of coming out next year in the QB position... And no, I see enough Big 12 football, there isnt ONE QB coming out next year worthy of a 1st round pick... Sorry OU fans...

Sanchez is 22 years old. Even if he sits out for 2 seasons, he'll still be young when he takes over as the starter. There are valid reasons to avoid taking Sanchez at #3, but just thinking that he's not ready yet is not one of them, because a franchise quarterback is worth waiting a year or two for, no matter where he's picked in the draft.

I don't think it will happen that often anymore. It used to be the way of the NFL, but times have changed for the most part.

And, I am not talking about watching for a season. I am fine with that. I don't think he will be ready next year either, if then.

If you are going to wait two years, then you might as well draft a project like Nate Davis.

Is there some new magic pressure that goes with being the #3 overall pick as opposed to the #10?

Did Roethlisberger take the field, at any time, breathing a large sigh of relief that he didn't have to bear that enormous top 5 burden?

I'm sure the fanbase would have been very forgiving because, hey, he was just a shitty #10 overall pick, not a "top 5."

Then we dissagree. And, that is fine. I don't think you pay a QB huge money to ride the bench for two years in the hopes that someday he gets it.

Yep, times are a changing.

I remember and long for the glory days of '04.

Look how shitty that Ryan Simms pick was...

he was a very safe pick...

Shhhh.

QB's are the only risky and expensive selection in the top 5.

Other positions rarely bust and cost FAR less.

Actually, Ben was drafted 11th. And, the team around Ben was better than the team around the Chiefs. He didn't have to be the 'savior'. There is a different mentality there.

Oh noes111 11th. Even bigger difference. He didn't have the top 10 burden, which is great, but not nearly as overwhelming as top 5. Very sensible.

Who the **** is calling either Stafford or Sanchez a savior? This player would be a piece, an important one I grant you, but a piece of a whole.

But your true argument is starting to reveal itself.

Build the rest of the team first, and then add the QB, right?

No, he was a pick that looked better due to the talent around him.

If you honestly don't think these guys will be considered 'saviors' then I don't need to waste my time with you.

By dumbshit fans.

At least some coaches and GMs feel otherwise, as Mr. McNair and Mr. Rivers can verify.

You are the only dumb**** who thinks that these guys have to be saviors.

Hell with this fan base, the pick could easily be considered anything but a savior.

Palmer as well.

yet people want someone like Curry to come in and save the defense...

This.

The problem is that there are a lot of these in the QB or bust crowd. It is a serious misconception to think that the only dumbshit fans are the ones who don't like one of these guys.

No, actually, my true argument is that you need to pick a good player at #3, not a QB just because we all want a franchise QB.

I think Stafford would be a good pick, but I don't think he will be there. Even he is a Junior, but he has a ton of experience and has all the physical tools.

I know you want to pigeon hole anyone who dares think Sanchez might be a reach, but don't put words in my mouth.

The dumbshits might say that as the #3 overall, that he better be the savior, but they're the same fans that will throw their hands up and rail against management and decide to skip games because he was selected.

Anyone who thinks Aaron Curry is worth the third pick is a dumbshit.

Exactly.

McNair was a decade ago. Rivers was a unique situation because Brees bounced back and Marty prefers veterans.

Heck, when Brees left, Marty still wanted him instead.

It isn't the 'plan' to have these guys ride the bench a year these days.

Do you really believe this, or are you exaggerating? I haven't seen one person say anything about this. In fact, the only people I have heard say they would rail management are the ones who said that if either Sanchez or Stafford is there, and we pass on them, then Pioli is a moron.

Either one of the QB's are worth investing in... Agree?

Neither will be the savior by they have the talent and potential to build a championship team around and give you 7-10 good years... And if they only win one superbowl or zero in that time frame, at least your building your team to make that leap into the top of the NFL for a 2-4 year period where you could actually compete for a championship...

Neither have to be the savior.... Only a tool would put unreal expectations on QB... But I would actually expect stupid expectations from some of this fanbase... They still long for Carl.

So Sanchez is now, a rapist, immature, being taken advantage by his brother, and not a good player.

Well, that's why you bring in the veteran stopgap. He serves both to mentor the young kid and to mollify the mob.

I really don't understand the thinking behind drafting a QB at #3 just to have him sit. What's he going to learn by watching that wily veteran Tyler Thigpen?