Mike Vrabel
 

As I did when Pioli came over, I'll post a separate thread because I think it's fair to say that I might have just a little more knowledge about the guy than most on here. :D

What you guys have traded for is a very smart, team-driven, reliable and consistent performer able to play both inside and outside linebacker in the 3-4, with championship credentials and very good leadership skills.

In my opinion, the reasons that the Chiefs have made this trade are as follows:

1. Veteran leadership. The Chiefs are VERY young. Rather than yet another young draft pick player, the Chiefs have decided that even though he is on the downside of his career and will only play for another year or two, it is important to bring in someone who can show the younger players HOW to practice, HOW to review film, HOW to prepare for games and be coachable, and HOW to play 3-4 linebacker.

2. Defensive flexibility. Vrabel can play both inside and outside in the 3-4 with relatively equal facility. A solid performer, he can set the edge, rush the passer and play hardnosed in the middle.

3. Position flexibility. In addition to his inside/outside talents in the 3-4, he also plays TE in goal line situations, showing the rest of the team that he is able and willing to do WHATEVER the coaches ask to help the team win.

He is, of course, on the downside of his career. Last year there was a very noticeable dropoff in his ability to make impact plays. Whereas in years gone by he stood out on the field for making key plays, last year he wasn't very noticeable. That's good in that you didn't often look at him as having screwed something up, but it's bad in that he wasn't making the strip-sacks that had earned him the love of Patriots fans.

Many here denigrate what he will bring ON the field, and wonder why the Chiefs are giving up anything for him. What you need to understand is that as much as they want what he brings on the field, what they are really bringing him here for is what he brings OFF the field. That is what makes him valuable to a ridiculously young, inexperienced Chiefs team.

And when he talks, those young guys will listen. His three rings ensure that. He will also help the coaches enforce their ways inside the locker room, and get the Chiefs players moving and operating in the right direction.

Though Pats fans knew his time was drawing near, we basically feel like there's been a death in teh family. Vrabel was universally loved and respected by Patriots fans, and we're very sad to see him go.

Haven't you heard? He's a no talent scrub, who adds nothing to our stellar defense. We'd much rather have the late round pick for that QBOTF.

Thanks for the feedback. Seems most Pats fans echo most of this.

The important thing here
is that the Chiefs Defense
gets another bel on it

Good stuff.

You better have a dandy of a post ready if the Cassel trade happens.

Thanks.

Hamas would rather eat the dried shit out of Chewbacca's ass fur than give up any pick for Mike Vrabel.

I don't care what kind of a tutor/role model Vrabel may be, that is what coaches are for. I'm ****ing pissed that we traded for an old man. Even if it was a 7th round pick, it was too much. This trade sucks ass.

I wonder if Pioli is willing to meet with him...?

Yeah. I don't think I've been happy about one single addition to this team since Pioli was hired. I just hope I'm dead ****in wrong.

I'm not pissed we brought him in, I'm pissed we gave up a draft pick for an aging veteran who's only got a year or two left in him.

Face it: the mentor schooled the tutor in this deal.

And who says you weren't going to cut him anyway?

Then you're a fool.

The chances that a 6th or 7th pick happens to be anything other than a useless scrub who either doesn't make the team or is cut after a year or three on the practice squad is very high.

Your defense sucks, and your team is barely older than the team at KU. You don't need to have someone teach them how to play in the NFL? You don't want veteran leadership? You don't need a clubhouse enforcer?

And last but not least, you don't seem to have any understanding of the value of PLAYERS that take what the coaches want the players to do, and ENFORCE it in the locker room.

Riddle me this -- WTF incentive does Vrabel have to sign with the Chiefs all else being equal? Oh no -- he'd be with a potential contender if he had a choice, rest assured. Unless you offered alot more money.

Well, I did like (not love) the selection of Haley but I am so fundamentally opposed trading for players and this is exponentially compounded in my mind thinking about how high our draft picks are this year and the players we are talking about. Vrabel? He's as old as the hills. Cassel? What has he proven? And I am pissed that we are gifting our valuable picks to the most talented team, not only in the league, but in our conference.

FWIW, when Pioli was hired in New England, a bunch of people freaked out about the moves that he was making then, too. Eventually you'll realize that he's really good at what he does and, if you're smart, you'll stop complaining and realize that you're lucky to have a top-tier exec in charge. He's a large part of the reason why the Pats went from 5-11 to Super Bowl champs in one year.

Fair enough, if he were cut he wouldn't have come here.

So tell me, since I haven't got a clue.

What veterans did you guys bring in early on in the BB/Pioli era to "teach" the young guys how to win?

I remember Seau, but that was after you had already won a SB or two, wasn't it?

I think someone could do alot worse in th 7th round than Vrabel, which is the start of a dynasty....he may not be here when it happens, but it's a start...

The chances that a 6th or 7th round pick are productive players in 3 years is small; the chance that Vrabel is a productive player in 3 years is non-existant.

While I won't completely discount the value of veteran leadership, I wouldn't give up draft picks to get it. There are plenty of free-agents available and, as I've already stated, I expect the coaches to teach the players. I don't know what you mean by "clubhouse enforcer" so I can't answer that. What is Vrabel going to enforce?

First, and not to be insulting, but you hardly need to worry about making the Patriots stronger. You need to worry about not sucking. Once you stop sucking, then you make take the next step.

Second, high or not, a late round pick is still more likely than not to be a mostly useless warm body.

Third, your team is YOUNG. Really, really, REALLY young. What do you need another really young, late round pick for? What will he add? The probably answer is "nothing". Which is a heck of a lot less than Vrabel, who can show the rest of your locker room how to win.

Who says it was a 6th or 7th round pick?

This was el borracho's quote last year when I said if we want to make a move at GM we should try and get Parcells to come on board.

We all get some wrong, but i'm leaning toward Pioli's decision making over his.

Yeah, Seau was later, much later.

Keep in mind that the Patriots team Belichick inherited in 2000 was fundamentally different from teh group of kids you have:

1. Starting QB was Drew Bledsoe -- 7 year veteran, pro bowler, and one SB appearance.

2. The team started 2000 just 3 years removed from a SB appearance, with playoff appearances and victories within the last couple of years.

3. Seasoned vets: Bledsoe, Bruschi, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Willie McGinest, Bruce Armstrong,

You've got Tony Gonzalez and a bunch of kids, basically.

:LOL:

I think the idea behind it is while Vrabel himself won't be around long, his contributions to our younger players will.

Seau was after we'd won all three. The one that I'd correlate, somewhat, to this trade for Vrabel is Roman Phifer. He had played for the Jets, was familiar with Belichick's defense as a result. The Pats signed him in 2001, and as it worked out he ended up being a starting LB in the first SB, and he was there for all 3 of them.

Plus a whiny Waters and a bitch spitter in Johnson

You are welcome to believe what you wish, txhawk. I still don't think Parcells would have been the answer in KC... don't really think he will be the SuperBowl answer in Miami, either.

Amnorix, I'm sure you're right about all the things Vrabel will be able to provide. He arrives with a great resume.

What I question is whether he will, and why he'd want to.

I just can't imagine that Vrabel is feeling good about coming to a 2-14 team in exchange for a late round draft pick. I hope I'm wrong, but I envision him just showing up to draw a pay check.

It is the coach's job to teach the players, but if you can't understand the inherent value in having experienced, productive, disciplined, and hard-working veterans with past success to hold the young guys accountable, then I don't know what to tell you. It's a time-tested method for building a strong foundation in just about every team sport.

You're right, but what Vrabel can teach your entire team, especially your defense, about hwo to play the 3-4 and how to WIN in the NFL is HUGE. A late round pick needs to be shown where the bathroom is.

Then you don't understand the NFL at a very fundamental level.

The NFL isn't the NBA or MLB. There are 60 players (including practice squad). It's not a bunch of 1:1 matchups, and the most talent doesn't always win. Read some books about NFL teambuilding and you'll understand this deal alot better.

Vrabel will give you guys stuff that you'll never see, know or understand. Will it definitely work? No. But it's a piece to the puzzle.

They're tremendously better now, specifically from a talent standpoint, then they were the year before. You have to win games to get to the playoffs.

I don't think he has a choice.

Besides, I don't believe he's a "me first" kind of player.

He's a consummate professional. I'm sure you're right -- he's not thrilled -- but he'll do his job. Count on it.

I myself would doubt that....but i've been wrong before...it seems obvious why they're bringing him in to me.

That's not an unreasonable concern, normally, but it just isn't the kind of player that Vrabel is. Trust the Pats fans on this one- once you've watched him for a while, you'll get why this isn't something that you needed to be worried about.

Dont count the ole guy out yet ... NE won lots of games with old-smart-proven players ....

I personally don't view Vrabel as a game changer. But what defensive player on this squad is? We have to change the ATTITUDE of this defense. If Vrabel can help do that, he's worth it.

Ah yes, now I remember, Belichick inherited this team when Parcells "retired".

I'm glad you feel good about this move for the Chiefs, because I sure as hell don't.

I'm going to try to keep a level head, and try to reserve judgement until I see the team that's assembled in August.

But with a ton of needs and a ton of salary cap space, and this is the move we make when folks like Brown and Scott and other impact players are visiting / signing other teams, I just have to scratch my head.

And that little bit of doubt I had when we hired Pioli (hmm, I hope his success had something to do with Pioli's judgement and not him being a yes man to Belichick) just grew a little...

He will. Part of the reason why a lot of Pats fans are pissed about losing him is that, even if he has lost a step, he pretty much is the "attitude" guy on defense.

errr....sort of, but you seem to be a bit off on the timeline. Parcells "retired" from the Jets. It was Parcells leaving after the SB run in 1996, then 3 years of Pete Carroll, and then Belichick coming in.

I understand the underlying concept, I just disagree vehemently with paying a premium (draft pick) for it. Perhaps I under-value vet leadership but, realistically, Vrabel will not be here if/when the Chiefs are winners again and neither will most of the players on the 2009 team. This is obviously not as stupid as trading our #12 for Green when we could have had him for nothing in free-agency the following year but it is stupid.

By the way, do you remember the justification for acquiring Green one year earlier?- so he could teach the youngsters and help install the system. Guess what! Green's presence didn't help Snoop Minnis or C. Thomas turn into anything they weren't already- crappy players.

p.s. I'm still wondering what Vrabel is going to enforce.

Fair enough, just don't judge the whole system too quickly. The Pats actually got 3 games worse in Belichick's first year (8-8 to 5-11) because he had to purge all the overpriced veterans, malcontents, and guys who didn't fit the system. Once you've done that, it still takes some time to build a nucleus of talent that buys into the system.

I'm sure your phone will be ringing of the hook tomorow morning...Scott calling....asking your advice??

Thanks Amnorix, always appreciate your input!

I couldn't remember exactly. I don't pay a lot of attention to the Jets or Patriots and never have. I hate both those teams.

No offense.

Yup, and years of Bobby Grier giving out top-tier contracts that murdered our salary cap, too. The Pats had some good players when he arrived: Ted Johnson, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Troy Brown, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, etc., but they were by no means a good team.

Agreed, the insight kept me from beating my wife. Well, tonight anyway.

Thanks.

The Chiefs are my team, but I'm an NFL guy. And I generally don't find myself looking at our team through rose colored glasses. Keep in mind, whatever this new management group does has to be better than what the former regime did. And that's 20+ years of mediocrity.

Don't forget the bar isn't set that high here.

No doubt. He is at minimum better than anything we have seen from our defense in the past season. Coaches and staff can only teach so much. Some people learn better by watching someone do it, we know that from watching kids learn in school for nuts sake! And Vrabel is being brought in to do just that. Now I know opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they all stink. Just wanted to stick my asshole in this particular discussion. Take that! Take that!:eek:

What makes him a good pass rusher, Amno? He always struck me as someone who was very smooth in getting to the quarterback. Made it look easy at times.

I hope all of you are correct but I'll believe it when I see it. Unless Vrabel has received some sort of incentives we're not privy to, he can't be happy about this deal.....and rightly so.

Hopefully, Pioli had some discussions with Vrabel before the trade was finalized. But Pioli doesn't seem big on talking to players. Well, ok, maybe he talks to NE players.

Not Amnorix, but watched quite a bit of the pats this year, and can say that He's good at the point of attack, but he's not the guy he was the past couple of years speed wise.

Plus he didn't have as good as a defensive backfield behind him. Sure makes a difference when the dbacks are playing good coverage when it comes to gettin after the qb.

For everyone that is complaining about maybe losing a 6th or 7th round pick in this trade, here is our all pro line up of 6th and 7th rounders since 2000

6 170 Barry Richardson T Clemson
6 182 Kevin Robinson WR Utah
7 210 Brian Johnston DE Gardner-Webb
7 239 Mike Merritt TE Central Florida

6 196 Herb Taylor T Texas Christian
7 231 Michael Allan TE Whitworth

6 186 Tre' Stallings G Mississippi
6 190 Jeff Webb WR San Diego State
7 228 Jarrad Page DB UCLA

6 187 Will Svitek T Stanford
6 199 Khari Long DE Baylor
7 229 James Kilian -- Tulsa
7 238 Jeremy Parquet T Southern Mississippi

6 195 Jeris McIntyre WR Auburn
7 231 Kevin Sampson T Syracuse

6 189 Jimmy Wilkerson DE Oklahoma
7 230 Montique Sharpe DT Wake Forest
7 252 Willie Pile DB Virginia Tech

7 221 Maurice Rodriguez -- Fresno State

6 176 Alex Sulfsted T Miami (Ohio)
7 212 Shaunard Harts DB Boise State
7 243 Terdell Sands DT Tennessee-Chattanooga

6 188 Darnell Alford T Boston College
7 208 Desmond Kitchings WR Furman

Bunch a badasses right there. Bunch. Quite a few.

Thanks Amnorix.
I've heard he can play all positions but is usually an OLB. So you think with loss of speed he may play ILB for us or is he still better on the outside? We need guys outside so that's my guess.

I'm downloading chiefs vs patriots right now, going to take a closer look. I kinda want to watch it tonight after I get back from the bars, but on a laptop with no sound that's probably not going to be that enjoyable.

If Carl Peterson was still running our drafts, you'd have a point.

The guy that IS running our draft has plucked some serviceable players out of the late rounds.

Antwan Harris
David Givens
Tully Banta-Cain
Dan Koppen
Matt Cassel

And some schmuck named Tom Brady.

Again, where does this come from, that it was a 6th or 7th? How do we know?

The Tom Brady notion is spot on. But it's kinda one of those once in a lifetime kinda things don't you think.

I'm not naive enough to expect us to find our Tom Brady in the 6th or 7th round.

Then why can't you trust his judgement?

No way you just said that.....

What is wrong with me wishing he had kept that pick and used it on a young player that could still be here and contribute to a future SB win?

Contrary to popular belief, the guy isn't the God of all GM's.

He's made mistakes before, and he'll make them again.

You have to be the homer of all homers to agree with everything an organization does. I'm sure Amnorix can tell you stories of times they thought Pioli made a mistake.

Say what?

That Pioli has a history of picking serviceable players in the late rounds, and that I prefer he kept that pick, instead of trading it for a LB that won't be on the roster in 2 years?

"Tom Brady"

Why not? It's a big crowd.

Start a Stafford/Sanchez thread and see what happens.

Who said anything about "finding our Brady?"

I'm just pointing out that Pioli has done a good job in the late rounds.

Missing out on say, a guy like Koppen (as an example) to trade for Vrabel frustrates the hell out of me.

The schmuck part was a joke.

And as I pointed out, I'm not expecting to find "Our Brady." My thoughts on that subject are well documented.

But I'd rather have the opportunity to draft a young player with potential, than to use that pick on an aging vet.

JMO.

His percentages ARE BETTER THAN ANYTHING we've had in.....evar!

He may have made a mistake, but I don't think that any of us should lose any sleep over a trade for a good veteran player for a draft pick that may or may not be in the later rounds of the draft. I mean we did just pick up 12 rookies in the draft last year.

He is the master of overexaggeration.

I'm not knocking the guy.

I just don't agree with this decision.

As far as my take on the situation goes, I don't have one yet. I will wait and and see when the details come out to formulate my opinion. As far as speculation goes, if it's a 6 or 7, I'm OK with it then. I believe the residual effect of having a veteran presence on the field for a season or two will help our younger players when this team is ready to compete.

Noted.

This is the thing that has been rolling over in my mind since hearing the word this morning about the trade.

No, that's fine. If I wanted to hang out with nothing but Patriots fans, I obviously wouldn't be here. :D

Right, plus 3 completely wasted drafts under Grier. That was as bad as anything.

Very smart and great motor. Comes hard every play. Good anticipation for the snap, and good use of strength/leverage.

To be honest, last year he had either lost a step or was injured. He wasn't nearly as good in the pass rush as he had been.

You know I agree with this statement for the most part. My hope is that the pick isn't something crazy like a 3rd or 4th, but I think Pioli would think better of that.

Obviously NE's willingness to part with Vrabel for a 6th or 7th is telling about how they feel about there existing linebacking corp. Hopefully it's not as much of a reflection of how they feel his skills have degraded.

But smile, we don't have Napolean Harris!

He was an OLB during his Pittsburgh years and first few years with us. When we had a run of injuries in the middle of our defense, and Phifer retired, etc., he slid inside and performed VERY well. He's a VERY smart defensive player, and can be either inside or outside and make few mistakes.

I assume outside. It's harder to find OLB players. I'd be very surprised if you guys were exclusively 3-4 this year, however...

Just as a hypothetical, for sake of conversation:

Say someone like AQ Shipley or Troy Kropog slides on draft day to the point we could have taken him with the pick we used on Vrabel.

Will you still be OK with it, knowing we could have had a spot on the OL locked up for the foreseeable future?

Oh, I understand...and I'm not sure I agree with it either, but I do believe it's just the start...and I do believe that....I think it's going to be a GREAT ride whether I or you or anyone else believes in a paricular move or not. I do think he has a plan, and that alone is leaps and bounds above the previous 3 years debacle (which isn't saying much).

I've edited this post so many times, it's getting really toughto type lol

Have a good one, g'night