Chiefs sticking with spread offense?
 

I am sick of talking about Hali and DJ fitting into the 3-4 and whether the Chiefs are going to draft an ILB, a RT or an injured WR.... so, why not bring up something that will make Mecca's head explode.

First, I am not saying the Chiefs will use the spread offense as extensively as they did last year.

However, if you watched the Cards under Haley last year, they used a ton of the spread.

And, if you watched the Pats, Cassel played his best from the shotgun in the spread offense.

For those of you who don't think the spread has much of a future in the NFL... much of what the Pats have run over the last two years has been based on the spread.

In fact, after further examination, I think Cassel and Thigpen's playing style is more similar than it is different. Cassel is clearly more polished and tended to make quicker better reads, and of course is two inches taller.

But, he was more comfortable in the shotgun, similar to Thigpen. He is also a scrambler, similar to Thigpen. And, he was the most comfortable using the spread formation, simialr to Thigpen.

Could the Chiefs have picked him up BECAUSE he will make a good spread QB?

Gailey and Haley are very similar in that they will not force the issue, they will do what their players do best. I think the spread will be a large part of the offensive package utilized in KC.

What I don't know is why the 'spread' has such a negative conotation. Teams have used versions of this in the NFL for a long time.

I have even come up with a name for the offense that I think we will see this year, the 'West Coast Spread'. I believe they will combine many of the pilosophies of the west coast sytem: Larger receivers, shorter passes, slants, etc. I think they will be a primarily zone running team. And, finally, I think that Cassel will see a larger part of the time in the shotgun spread formation.

Now, that I have laid out what I think will happen..... based on nothing more than what I think the talent on the team will be good at as well as what the coaches have done in the past.... you guys can flame me.

Yes... this is a stab in the dark. No, I am not an insider. But, frankly, I would rather get flamed on something new and interesting than continue to argue whether Hali can be an OLB or whether positional value should outweigh actual player evaluation.

There isn't anything wrong with "the spread", unless that's all you can do. It's great between the 20s.

Sure if then never want to win anything meaningful...

Yep

I will just take a stab in the dark here, but I am assuming since we didnt have a QB that could line up under center, our redzone offense blew balls...

Also our patiented predictable fade pass always kept defenses honest...

the spread offense means different things to different people. if you watch a lot of college football, the spread is used very often with the option. I would consider a team like the Florida Gators a running option team. They have a balanced offense with run and pass. But the Gators version of the spread is obviously very different than what the Chiefs ran last year, but they both seem to follow under the same name of spread offense.

I think a lot of the hatred of the spread comes from people thinking of the option and the amount of hits the QB takes in that type of offense. A QB can't take that many hits in the pro game. Option QBs have not been successful in the NFL, at least at QB, some have made pretty good receivers.

I'm not sick of talking about defense. The problem with last year wasn't the spread, it was our defense.

I hope we do still run it. The difference between Cassel and Thigpen is one can also play in a Pro Style offense and the other can't. Manning, Brady, Brees, and all the other good QB's use the spread... but they also play from under center like Cassel can.

It was both... and ST's.

This

Maybe you should have watched the second half of the games.

All offenses are better between the 20s

Well, this sucks.... you guys took this WAY better than I expected. I was thinking I was going to get flamed big time. LOL.

I was expecting far more ingorant responses than I have gotten.

This is what I was expecting... thanks for not letting me down rerun.

The wildcat offense, which the Chiefs had their own version of even in training camp, is very similar to the spread option and can be effective as a situational offense.

I just think it is funny that so many people who are so annoyed at Herm being 'conservative' are also closed minded about what they consider to be 'gimmick' offenses.

The Chiefs clearly need to be able to load up and pound the ball when necessary, but the spread is going to be here for a while in my estimation.

True, but you do have to admit that a team that uses the spread will have a harder time 'punching' it in at times.

But, the Cards had a good red zone offense and they used the spread quite a bit down there.

Because most people understand that using the spread, or a variation of it - at TIMES, can work with the right players.

However, using the spread, or a variation of it as your base offense - and not being able to run anything else, is begging for failure.

When you have a SB MVP at QB, and 2 all-world WR's, you have the ability to buck the trend. Both the Cards and Patriots have those things.

We don't have the talent to run the spread in the redzone.

The spread will be used by this team at times. It's not going to be an every down thing though, like it was last year with Thigpen post-Atlanta

We need better Offensive line play the times we did run there was nothing there 10 yards in, forcing us to throw a jump ball to bowe or TG every play

Not really. In a sense it's tougher because most teams once inside the 10 run the football. It would be more difficult to run in the shotgun than directly behind center.

However, passing the ball would be easier in a passing situation from the shotgun inside the 20 or the 10.

That said, I dont see the shotgun fromation and the spread offense as the same thing. the shotgun doesn't have to be run from a spread formation.

The spread can allow teams with poor offensive lines to move the ball between the 20s, as the Chiefs clearly demonstrated last year. However, in the red zone, it's tough to score with a poor offensive line no matter what the offensive formation. The Chiefs sucked in the red zone last year because of a poor offensive line, not because of the spread.

Well, with ANY offense, you have to have certain things.

With DV's and AS's offense, you had to have a premier LT to make it click, and a versatile RB... and a disciplined QB that can get the ball out quick.

I respectfully disagree.

It gets progressively harder to run a passing offense the closer you get to the goal line, because the opposing defense doesn't have to cover as much ground. It's a huge advantage for the defense to only have to cover 20 yards instead of 70. It's an even bigger advantage when the defense knows you can't run the ball, as we witnessed last year.

I think it is a little early to say definitively what Thigpen can or can't do. Last year, Cassel was a guy that hadn't started a game since high school and most thought he couldn't do anything.

No, the shotgun doesn't need to be run in the spread. You can run it in any formation.

However, in the spread offense, you nearly always get the ball in the shotgun in the spread formation.

The spread formation is merely getting the defense spread out as much as possible to create separation, AND to force the defense to declare its intentions sooner.

The pistol gimmick, spread, protect the QB cause the line sucks offense will still be used in part. The team cannot survive on it alone.

Speaking of defense:harumph: what will the team use to stop the other team?:hmmm:

Don't worry, we still think your and idiot.

I do think the bashing of Thigpen is a little premature. Yeah, he still has much to work on, and he wasn't 'great' last year, but he had pretty good numbers on a suspect team, and he was only in year two.

Cassel was in his fourth year with a ton of talent.

I liked the move for Cassel because I don't think you can go wrong trying to stockpile promising young talent at the QB position. But, I won't be totally shocked if Thigpen beats him out.

Thanks, I needed that.

Cassel is a classic Pro Style QB and Thigpen is a classic spread QB, you have to be an idiot to argue that or just plain don't watch football.

Croyle and Gray could both beat out Thigpen in TC if its wide open...

Really? Then I wonder why the classic pro style QB played his best in the spread offense?

Honest question here: Did you actually watch Cassel play much last year?

I am not saying he was running the option like Thigpen did at times, but they looked similar at many times last year.

Neither of those teams ran the "spread."
They also didn't run the "Run 'n' Shoot."

I've been saying the same thing, especially if he's asked to run a pro-style offense.

Wouldn't shock me in the least to see Thigpen as #3, or off the roster completely.

Let me explain the post further.

It's easier to pass the football inside the 20 in a passing situation from the shotgun, than it is to pass the ball from behind center inside the 20 in a passing situation.

Sorry for not being clearer.

Your post is common knowledge. I assumed most understood that concept.

I take it last year was the first time you've ever heard of Cassel then. But since this is the NFL and most QB's have their first pro success from the Shotgun I guess I see no reason for Cassel to be any different.

I love how people think lining up in the shotgun is the "spread' too ROFL

Croyle could beat out Cassel too if he could ever stay healthy. He has a better arm than Cassel, Thigpen, Gray or Sanchez. The only guy the Chiefs could have gotten this year with a better arm would be Stafford.

Unfortunately, that great arm is attached to a very frail body.

And, for that reason, I don't think the Chiefs go into another season with him as the starter, even if he is playing better than the other QB's.

Not just talking about the shotgun, talking about the spread offense.

Randy Moss.

Wes Welker.

Josh McDaniels.

Solid OL play.

6th best rushing offense in NFL.


Tell me, how were Cassel and Thigpen similar?

Don't bother responding if all you have is "took snaps from the shotgun."

Do you understand that there is a difference between the spread offense and the spread option? You can run the spread offense without the spread option. I think that is largely confused.

You pointed out the differences in the teams' players... not the offensive schemes.

And, I agree, that Thigpen had inferior talent around him.

Those players made that scheme possible and successful.

You raise a good point..... most QB's do have their first success from the shotgun.

It gives the QB a better view of the field and more time to get rid of the ball.

But, I am talking about the actual offense that the Pats were running, not just how the QB got the ball.

i watched several games last year and that "solid o line" must not have shown up for them

Just like Roaf and Holmes made DV's schemese possible and successful.

Agreed.

My point, is that if we're going to fit our scheme to the players we have, we have no business running the spread - unless the offensive roster is completely turned over in the next 5 months.

My point is that this offense is better prepared to be the spread than it is a pro style offense.

I don't think Thigpen was the only reason the Chiefs ran the spread last year.

And, with the spread that both the Cards and Pats ran, I don't see it going away.

Cassel was the #8 QB in the nation coming out of HS where he lined up under center. He went to USC who runs a pro style offense. He was the backup to Heisman trophy winner Carson Palmer who was drafted #1 overall and was also his roomate and best man in his wedding. Cassel almost beat out Matt Leinart in college. He still got some playing time and you would be foolish to think he didn't get any snaps in practice either. He has far more experience running a Pro Style offense than Thigpen does. Cassel also had better NFL coaching than Thigpen has received so far too.

So why do you think they ran it even though we didn't switch to it until Thigpen took over?

You could argue the exact opposite view because of the offensive line. With an aging Sakintosh and a discontent Waters and without a 2nd round pick; the offensive line is likely to be just as bad or worse than last year. The spread obviously works better with a poor line.

The Chiefs haven't shown an interest thus far in signing any free agent lineman to improve the line.

ah I didn't realize if you don't sign free agents the first week that you can't improve.

As long as we balance the offense out, run plays from under Center, and establish the ground game I think we should continue to include it in our overall offensive philosophy.

because they finally realized that if they wanted to keep a QB healthy that had better switch to something else, because the QBs were getting killed behind that line.

:spock:

Okay then.

Oh so it had nothing to do with Thigpens mobility and that he sucks from under center.

Change the title of this thread, it looks like it's credible tool.

what OL free agents do you think that we are targeting??? I'm not saying that it can't happen. I just haven't seen any reason to believe that the Chiefs are going to sign any free agent lineman that we can believe are really going to make a difference.

If they don't sign some OL in free agency, how can we think that the offensive line play will improve???

toast. No problem.

TIM TEBOW IS GOING TO CHANGE THE NFL Muuuhhahahahahahaa

- John Gruden

All I know is that we better score 40 pts a game with the defense we have.

I'm sure they will use the spread. Probably a lot. I don't think it will be anything like the high school gimmick they ran last year, though. Unless Cassel gets hurt and they end up scrapping everything so they can simplify the scheme for the third stringer again.

Footballoutsiders.com

All About the System

Between new GM Scott Pioli and new head coach Todd Haley, I'd say that Cassel is actually in the perfect environment to make a real go of it. In his time working with Bill Belichick in New England, Pioli got a front-row view of Cassel's strengths and weaknesses. And when he helped the Cardinals to the Super Bowl last year as Arizona's offensive coordinator, Haley ran an extremely productive attack with a lot of shotgun sets. This is where Cassel will thrive.

In 2008, Arizona quarterback Kurt Warner threw 598 regular-season passes. 412 of them were in a shotgun formation. That's 69.8 percent of his attempts, which would have been high for just about any other quarterback -- except for Cassel. Of Cassel's 516 attempts in 2008, 405 came from the shotgun -- an astonishing 78 percent. Both the Cardinals and Patriots are used to shotgun, three-wide sets with three receivers, and Kansas City's use of the Pistol formation, with quarterback Tyler Thigpen last season, gave tight end Tony Gonzalez unprecedented opportunities that he could very well see again.

There are times when players go from system to system and lose whatever it was that made them great. Matt Cassel is fortunate in that he's going to a system that perfectly fits what he's done before. He would have been a question mark in a power offense, but Kansas City will take to the air, and they have the right quarterback for the job.

i'm sure that had something to do with it too. but most NFL QBs don't get hit as much as ours did in the pro offense that we ran. Cassel's jersey was much cleaner in NE than Croyles, Huards or Thigpens. An

I know Thigpen took some hits in the spread, but getting some of those lame duck hits behind center when you can't defend yourself seem much more prone to cause injury.

Or it could be because teams don't let good Olinemen get away.

Wasn't Cassel sacked more than any other QB?

Sounds good to me. My only concern is when the weather turns shitty we need to be able to run the ball effectively.

Yep. 47 to Roethlisberger's 46.

Fortunately he was sacked a less the second half of the season than he was the first half (19-28)

Hell, we got two sacks on that Patriots O-line.

You also need to be able to run the ball with a lead to burn clock. This is a familiar discussion in a lot of ways; same concerns we had with Al Saunders' system.

When DV\AS were here we ran the ball alot and was successful at it. In Arizona they could hardly ever run successfully until they got to the playoffs. I guess that is the best time to get good at it.

If KC is going to use the shotgun for the majority of passes like AZ and NE did last year then they should give Leftwich a call and add him as the backup QB.

WHY? IMO thigpen will fill that role nicely

The HB Draw worked on occassion in that system.

So you admit to starting shit-storm threads? You do you know.

So here's my response, and it's one I know you were hoping for:

"Oh golly! I sure hope they do, because it would validate both the spread AND me, Nonsensical Chiefs Fan, and I would be right, right, RIGHT"!

(For once). :rolleyes:

That offense was predicated around the run about as much as any aggressive system can be. But that's not what I'm referring to. Even when the offense was at its peak, they had a very hard time executing late in games. They couldn't line up and just pound 2 or 3 yards when they needed it.

sacks is not the only indicator of poor o line play. the ability to run the ball is important and the pats had (I think) the 6th best rushing offense in the league. the KC o line couldn't run block and they couldn't pass block for very long. I don't think it is a stretch to suggest that the pats o line is much better the Chiefs.

this really wasn't even what I was talking about.... someone suggested that the chiefs shouldn't use the spread bc it doesn't fit the talents of the team and I was pointing out that the spread helps our o line because they suck. and I can definitely see us using the spread on occasion to benefit the weak o line.

LJ was leading the NFL in rushing yards or was second in rushing yards before we switched to the spread...

B-but...but...our rushing yards were GREATER in 08 once wqe switched to the Almighty Spread! :rolleyes:

Um, if shit-storm threads are ones that should provoke thought and conversation, then YES I do try to start them.

Actually, I don't really care about being right. Predicting what will happen does not mean you 'know' football. Many guys who predict all sorts of things know football. There are a myriad of factors that go into any decision the Chiefs make.

I do care about raising the level of understanding about football on this board. I would like to have intelligent conversation about my football team with other informed fans. They do not have to think like me, but I would prefer that their opinions come from logic based thought, and now some half assed radio sports jock.