At the Quarter Mark: Better or Worse?
 

After the Haley hire, you couldn't throw a stick through this place without hitting someone that made the following comment:

"We'll be a better team based on coaching alone," or, "we'll win X amount of games due to coaching alone."

Yes, it's only been 4 games, and this is NOT a call for Haley's head - but is deserved criticism of the way he's prepared this team over the first 4 games of the regular season.

Also, IN NO WAY is the following an endorsement of Herman Edwards. What it is, however, is a giant red flag - this team - of which 60% has been handpicked by Pioli and Haley - is actually worse in almost all statistical categories when compared to the 2008 team after 4 games - which many here claimed were the darkest days of last season. We'll call it, B.S. - or, Before Spread.

Offensively (bolded number is 2009 totals):

1st downs: (63) (62)

3rd down conversions: (25/62 - 40%) (9/51 - 18%)

Total yards: (1145) (986)

Rushing yards: (554) (406)

Passing yards: (591) (580)

Sacks Allowed: (12) (13)

Penalties/Yardage: (10/109) 29/230

Scoring: (16.25 PPG) (16 PPG)


Not a single category in which we've improved over 2008, which happened to include going through 3 QB's - playing the 3rd stringer in 2 of the 4.


Defensively:

1st downs allowed: (74) (85)

3rd down conversions against: (25/54 - 46%) (25/58 - 43%)

Total yards allowed: (1517) (1516)

Rushing yards allowed: (706) (514)

Passing yards allowed: (811) (1002)

Sacks: (3) (5)

Points allowed: (24.25 PPG) (28 PPG)

Turnover margin: (+2) (Even)

Yea! 2 more sacks! And nice to see the 192 yard improvement from the rush defense, only to see 191 of it be given back up by the pass defense.


The 2008 team was apparently so bad that management felt the need to purge 30 players, yet is playing worse with a roster that is 60% their handpicked players?

What message are you trying to send, Todd? It seems like it changes on a weekly ****ing basis.

As someone who predicted a 3 win season, the losses aren't surprising me.

The way we are losing, after hearing the phrase, "we're going to be a big, strong, fast, smart, tough, disciplined football team" IS surprising me.

There is no improvement over the "Dark Ages" of last season in ANY of those areas. And there's no excuse for it, especially the lack of discipline. Make 'em run some more, Todd - it seems to be working...

Enough excuses - enough with the "messages" - enough petty bullshit sitting players - time to see some ****ing improvement. Not necessarily wins.

IMPROVEMENT.

Can't argue with this. This team needs to get better in all three phases.

Holy Jesus.

Those Evelyn Wood Speed Reading classes are really paying off, Mic.

At least we have a franchise QB.

The Chiefs are worse. I didn't think I'd ever say that after the first four games of 2008, but they are worse. Plus, they have no identity yet.

well hey we might beat Cleveland later this season.... maybe......

The penalties are really damning evidence.

The players are trying too hard to not make mistakes, like a driver that is too cautious causing wrecks

Everyone talked about how undisciplined Herm's teams were.

Yet Haley the Disciplinarian's team has committed 19 more penalties for 119 yards after 4 games.

That running and screaming is really paying off.

We're appreciably worse but that's to be expected when you're installing new offensive and defensive systems and dumping talent like Tony Gonzalez.

By the way, we are a better team than we were at the beginning of last year when we tried to run the pro set to futility. And I believe we will be a better team by the end of the year than we were at the end of 2008.

We took two steps backwards to get pointed in the right direction. It will pay off.

if there isn't an uncapped year I hope Clark will spend some money on some good,young free agents.. It would be nice for a change

At least they are thinner, looking svelte and their cardiologists thank Haley.

Uh, no, we're not.

Did you actually look at the numbers?

And how the **** did we take 2 steps backwards, when all I heard last year is how it can't get any worse?

Good luck with that. We've almost never spent the kind of money necessary to bring in expensive, 2nd contract players.

This is what frustrates me about this team. They don't even know what they want to do.

I knew we were gonna be pretty bad but this team so far hasn't come together like I had hoped.Right now I would have to vote for worse,but being this bad has to mean being good is next...I hope....
Posted via Mobile Device

Switch out last years Denver game for this years Giants game and those numbers may even out some. But yeah, we are worse no question.

I almost started this very thread yesterday. OTWP did a better job with stats to back everything up. I found myself pondering whether or not this team was better than it was 1 year ago today. I determined it's not, and mostly for the reasons GoChiefs listed above. We'll see where it goes from here, but so far, not so good.

But what about that "message" that Haley sent in Philly? Didn't that help?

Oh, and OTW, I'm going to be shocked if you didn't just write Whitlock's next column.

Congrats. LMAO.

Sunday is "opposite day" in the Haley household.

Run 10 of 11 plays when down 3 scores, throw 5 of 6 plays inside the 2 ****ing yard line.

Hey, I've always wanted to be published.

That onside kick to open the second half was ****ing reeruned.

We are going to keep doing it until we get it right.

It would be interesting to see these numbers during Haley's 3rd year when he has been at the helm.

All these numbers tell me is that Haley has put up near identical numbers with an overhauled team in his first year compared to Herms team which had been 3 years in the making...

Give me a break. Herm wasn't allowed to tear down the team and start building until his third year.

I am not calling for Haley's head.... but this has been pathetic.

Good analysis OTW. Third Down futility had a lot to with replacing Gonzo with shit on a ****ing shingle.

I was telling someone yesterday, that I had no idea why Pioli and Haley didn't go get some different starters.
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Look at the games against Carolina and Tennessee last year.

Nothing nearly that bad has happened this year. Philly came close.

And that Oakland game last year was a disaster. This year it was just...disappointing.

Exactly. That is a huge difference.

I think some allowance has to be made for a new scheme on both sides of the ball, a late offensive playbook change, and quality of opponents faced. That being said, the team has been disappointing so far, even given very low expectations. The 3rd down efficiency and penalties are the most discouraging stats, IMHO - nearly impossible to win with those numbers.

I think the second half of the season will be the most telling. 8 weeks to get at least somewhat comfortable with the new schemes, and a much more reasonable schedule should give a much better idea of where this team is heading for the future.

9 of 51 on third down is ****ing horrible. how in the blue **** can you call yourself an offensive coach when you can't fall ass first into 25% of your third down conversions.

This entire first quarter of the season is sickening.

I sat here and watched dozens of forum members suck off Pioli and Haley, all the while pointing fingers at Josh McDaniels and the Denver Broncos.

Denver is 4-0, has seven new starters on defense and has given up a league low of 6.5 points per game on defense.

The Chiefs are 0-4, look like a freakin' disaster both offensively and defensively. Their defense has given up 28 points per game and is ranked 30th, just ahead of Cleveland and Detroit.

I don't know what the **** is going on at One Arrowhead Drive but if I'm Clark Hunt, I'm there first thing this morning demanding some answers.

Of course, I'm not Clark Hunt. He's in Dallas, counting his money.

And ****ing Mexican soccer players

Most excellent post, Dude.

MOST excellent.

:thumb:

He's gay?

NTTATWWT

Last season:
Patriots lost Brady in the first game and had Cassel come in cold. That was followed by the Raiders, Falcons and Broncos.

This season:
Chiefs started their season against the Ravens. That was followed by the Raiders, Eagles and Giants.

In other words, the schedule broke much easier last season than it has so far this season. The Chiefs don't have Gonzalez and Bowe's been hurt. Despite that, the scoring is just about the same, at 65 points last season to 64 this season. The defense had surrendered 97 points through 4 games last season, and has surrendered 112 through 4 games this season. Unless people expect the Chiefs to be shut out by the Cowboys this week, this season's offense will surpass last season's offense in points scored, and everyone knew that the defense would have problems due to the switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4, the tougher schedule, and the lack of talent.

Also, for all the complaining people did about the team daring to lose against the Raiders, it lost to Oakland in K.C. last season, too.

This.

You were in Herm's camp. Nothing you say counts. :p

Helluva thread OTWP. Pretty telling stats there..

Get over it

The Lions have a better 3rd down defense and more sacks than KC. Gunther laughs.

If matrix were here, he would laugh too

QFT

Lets also not forget the strength of schedule this year vs last year. And you also have to take into consideration that Herm was on the DECLINE with his team. They were getting progressivly worse each year. I wonder how Herm's team would look out there this season.

I had a minor meltdown, check that, I MELTED THE **** DOWN last night when I heard the Donko ****s beat the Cowgirls. IIRC, I was talking to Reerun, but seriously. Their defense was on par with ours last year, they spend much fewer picks than we do, and they're the 4th best Defense currently? ****ing how? Do they even have a nose tackle? WTF?

The only thing I can think of is that Dumerville provides enough of a passrush to mask some of their holes (I recognize they played Cleveland, which helps them out).

Offensively, I thought they would be average. A good OL and WR corps with a non-reeruned QB will get you average.

I'm surprised as hell about their D though. I just don't ****ing get it.
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Yep.

I have come to the conclusion though by listening to Haley's comments yesterday and observing Pioli and Clark Hunt chatting it up and laughing and joking yesterday for about 30 minutes that there is little or no pressure to win this season. Haley's comments reinforce that when it says they are still evaluating players that this year is more like extended pre-season.

Mike Nolan runs one hell of a D. Clancy Pederast does not.

Sorry but Haley has been the worst coach I have ever seen-if he is next year I would be surprised.

Not while he was in San Fran.

I think there's no doubt that Dumerville is a catalyst but Mike Nolan has been an excellent defensive coordinator for years and years. He kinda reminds me of Pete Carroll in that he's an excellent coordinator that would excel as a college head coach.

But Denver's moves have been head and shoulders above the Chiefs and that alone sickens me beyond belief. I truly and honestly believe that it begins and ends with ownership.

I can tell you one thing's for sure: If I'm Clark Hunt and my head coach says "I'm going to hire Clancy Pendergast as my DC", I say "The ****ing bloody hell your are! Find someone else!"

It is really really simple, they have Mike Nolan as their DC who knows how to coach defense. That is the downside of waiting to pick a head coach because all the good assistants are gone.

I'd love to see a comparison between DV/Haley, year 1.

I'd argue both coaches came in with little to work with.

Not that I'm a fan of Haley. In fact I'd spank to the news he was canned...

He wasn't the d-coordinator but he did help to provide the current 49ers with a shit-ton of defensive talent.

They're becoming a damn good football team.

OTW - Great Analysis...

That being said, has it been taken into account that we played vs 1 playoff team last year, and this year we have played 3 in the first quarter, and 2 on the road....

So i feel that even though we might be the same or worse as last year AT THIS POINT AND TIME i feel that after 4 Games we are better....

Statistically, I want to go down on the record stating that games 5-8 will be MUCH better than 2008.

OTW - again good analysis on your part... not taking anyway way from you on this... just wanted to state the schedule difference...

I'm also getting sick of the "our offense left our defense on the field all day" argument.

Bullshit.

Haley preached on and on about how in shape this team was/would be. And you can look at any number of teams that had $3itty offenses and great (not just good, but GREAT) defenses. The Bucs, Bears, Steelers, Ravens, 90's Chiefs most of the time, Dolphins, etc.

Their offenses wouldn't show up entire games and yet the D would make plays to WIN games at the end...

One thing to keep in mind about Pioli and that was in 2000 the Pats were 5-11 and for a portion of the season didn't even have a full 53 man roster because Pioli\Belichick didn't like anybody that they could bring in or who they had on their practice squad.

Then the following year they started out 0-2 and everybody was thinking Belichick was going to be fired.

The rest is history. Now I am not saying that is going to happen here but the first year is basically a bloodletting.

Poor talent + poor decision making= Bad defense

Not too much time on the field.

I'm enjoying this year a lot more than last, at least we have pretended to be competitive. Maybe we should look at this after next week, 'cause last year week 5 was the 34-0 slaughter at the hands of the Panthers. Of course this years having 1/3 of our first downs taken away by penalties hasn't helped (yes, I pulled the 1/3 out of my ass).

I hate Pendergast too. That was definitely a :spock: hiring.

I'm with you on some of the moves they made, but some of them should have been crippling. Cutler, trading this year's first and a second for a short CB, doing very little to help their D...on paper this should be an average offensive team and a shitbox defensive team.
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Major overhaul, overlooked by a lot of people:

Dawkins
Hill
Goodman
Davis
McBean
Fields

That's 6 of 11 defensive starters that weren't on the team last season, and that's before you start looking at position changes, sub-package players, or backups.

Playing Cleveland and Oakland doesn't hurt, either.

Fire em all/Sanchez....thread.

PS: Rome wasn't built in a day because those mother ****ers were lazy.

We are getting worse at a slower rate than we were before. Therefore, we are near the bottom and will be improving soon.

Seriously, the roster was so bad that I'm giving Pioli/Haley 2 full years of free ride. I also don't think they got the benefit of a full off season because of the lateness in which the staff was assembled (I blame Clark and his insistence to evaluate Herm Edwards for that). I won't try to determine if we are on the right track until regular season of 2011. My major gripe so far is Cassel over Sanchez.

2001 Chiefs:

Offense: #5 overall in points averaging 20 points per game (320 total)
#5 overall in yards per game (354 per game)

Defense: #23 overall in points at 21.5 (344 total allowed)
#23 overall in yards at 331 per game

The same offensive line that got Bledsoe killed and everyone said was horrible Brady rode to a super bowl. Brady changed their whole team.

Those first two years under Brady the Pats scraped and clawed their way to victory. No huge blowouts or anything. Brady and co. just always found a way at the end...

That was DV's first year? You sure?

I remember a lot of sacks, INT's, and Holmes didn't even really come on until about week 4 or so...

That is not true about their OL. You are correct about clawing their way to victories.

2000 Final OL

• 78 Bruce Armstrong T
• 72 Sale Isaia G
• 70 Adrian Klemm G/T ^R
• 62 Josh Rawlings T ^UR
• 77 Greg Robinson-Randall T ^R
• 67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
• 76 Grant Williams T
• 65 Damien Woody C

2001 Final OL

• 63 Joe Andruzzi G
• 77 Mike Compton G
• 74 Kenyatta Jones T/G ^R
• 72 Matt Light T ^R
• 61 Stephen Neal T/G
• 64 Greg Robinson-Randall T
• 67 Grey Ruegamer C/G
• 76 Grant Williams T
• 65 Damien Woody C

They replaced 3 out of their 5 starters in 01.

They were 16th in scoring, not 5th as Dane posted:

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...s/kan/2001.htm

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorysta...true&Submit=Go

They've played three teams that may contend for this year's superbowl, two of them on the road. That's not the September 2008 versions of New England, Oakland, Atlanta and Denver. Yeah, I'm shocked that they don't look worlds better.

As far as the 2001 comparison goes, that team was 1-3 at this point and had only shown the flashes of the offense to come in later years against the Redskins. Priest Holmes would have less than 250 yards rushing in four games, with 150 of that coming against Washington a week ago. And yesterday's game would have been highlighted by TrINT Green, as we knew him then, tossing four picks to Deltha O'Neal.

Ahh, the good ol' days.

:clap:

Bledsoe got knocked out (after getting beat around) and Brady rode that team to a SB. IIRC Brady even missed a game (or most of a game) that Bledsoe had to fill in for during the run due to injury.

I'm just saying that Brady's first year that was no super front 5 he played behind but his play did chance the whole dynamic...

Positive.

That team started 1-6 and finished 6-10. They didn't know how to use Priest until the Redskins game.

If you want to get into serious stats like those that OTWP broke out, here's a link:

http://www.databasefootball.com/team...lg=NFL&yr=2001

Haley's trying to send a message.

There were still some flashes. Not many, things did not look good, but Holmes did make one wonder.

I think with the (limited) talent this team has we should run the ball (and no, not 5 draw/shotgun handoff plays in a row) and use playaction. Our WR's are sub-par, our o line is teh sukh, and our QB is new to everything here.

Instead we're running a spread/pistol-similar offense 1/2 the time...

I hated Vermeil's tenure. But you wanna see something really sick?

3-13 (75) - Eric Downing, Syracuse, DT
3-15 (77) - Marvin Minnis, Florida State, WR
4-12 (107) - Monty Beisel, Kansas State, DE
4-13 (108) - George Layne, Texas Christian, RB
5-10 (141) - Billy Baber, Virginia, TE
5-19 (150) - Derrick Blaylock, Stephen F. Austin, RB
6-13 (176) - Alex Sulfsted, Miami (OH), G
7-12 (212) - Shaunard Harts, Boise State, DB
7-43 (243) - Terdell Sands, Chattanooga, DT

The ONLY guy still in the league, including Vermeil and Green. is Terdell Sands.

That is just downright pathetic.

IMO, the Chiefs should be running the spread 90% of the time, excluding goal line situations.

This line sucks ass and The Spread at least gives Cassel a chance to complete passes.

I don't think going pro-set or I-formation would work any better. Cox isn't very good and we don't have a tight end who can block worth a shit. And I don't think they'd slow down the pass rush an iota on playaction unless the running plays started to actually work.

Damn nice website...rep.

I liked the onside kick.

Didn't work, didn't help, but he was trying.

I don't like the predictable ruts he gets into with his playcalling.

For an hour the guy will decide to find every way possible to run out of the shotgun with LJ.

Why?

LJ prefers a FB, multiple carries, and has a $#it O line to work with. If this pistol/spread/shotgun offense is what Haley wants trade LJ, move Charles in there, and quit being stubborn about fitting square pegs in round holes...

If so then lets do it. I don't think we have the talent for it but find what we're trying to be and ****ing commit to it. If that's the plan then let's use the best talent for it and not shift from 1st gear to 3rd, back to 2nd, up to 5th, etc.

The playcalling looks like Gunther's insane press conferences sounded...

The 2001 team was 16th in points. They were 5th in yards.

I disagree. In the short term I think making things simpler and infusing Haley's way into this team over time might be most productive.

I could be wrong.

Cox is a good athlete but not much of a blocking FB. A good blocking FB is still inexpensive and why teams neglect them is beyond me...