The sad thing is this line could be just as bad next year
 

It really needs 4 new starters. Waters is close to being done. He's about where Shields was his last year. Just watched a replay of the SD game and he made their practice squad reject d-line look like world beaters. Goff is done. Niswanger has nothing. O-lines are usually 3 year rebuilding projects and we haven't even started on year 1. Clark obviously won't pay anybody who can really come in here and play football. He had plenty of opportunities to pick up a viable center and right tackle and passed on all of them. You can draft a bunch of rookies, but it takes them 2-3 years to get going (see Jacksonville). Unfortunately, it's looking like this line will be the death of Todd Haley.

It's possible to be as bad but not likely. Even the if we have the same exact players they would get better. I doubt Scott and Clark will stand pat in FA this year. They have money and being this bad again will not be tolerated by Clark.

I think that there a a couple of young players that have potential to develop, assuming we don't lose one to another team.

Both Daryl Harris and Colin Brown looked like they could be guys that can help this line at guard.

I thought both looked better in the preseason than the scrubs we've been trotting out there through the season thus far.

Coming from you, this is very reassuring.

I hope you are right.

They've had money the last 4 years. They've had a bad oline for nearly that long. The last 3 years the line has been horrid but with each subsequent year the line has got worse, not better. If you go back through the history of really bad lines in the NFL you don't see many, if any, great 1 year turnarounds. Along with that how do you expect to get an oline in 1 year when:

A: Your football team won't spend any money?

B: Your head football coach won't even let them carry enough weight to be effective? (Theres a reason every left tackle in the league weighs closer to 320 than 280)

C: Your personnel dept. has given little indication they even have a clue how to identify talent at the position? (Colin Brown lolz)

i disagree with this part ... it doesn't have to take that long

so how do you know how much clark is going/willing to spend?

Well coming from this clown, who has just about the worst eye for talent ever, I feel assured we will fix the holes on this line.

And no, genius, lines do not take 3 years to build.

We have only 1 first-round pick on the line currently, so we're probably looking at 4 more years until we're decent.

OKUNG FTW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!LOLZ

A,B,C is easy as 1,2,3

Give some examples. Three years is pretty standard. In '05 Miami was as bad up front as we are now. It took them until '08 to be legit. The Jets spent two first rounders in '06 and it took them until this year to become the dominant group that they are.

Obviously if you only have a piece or 2 out of place, OR you're willing to bring in a bunch of free agents it's not much of an issue, but this O-line needs 4 new players and has a history of neglecting free agents.

He wouldn't spend anything to keep Jard Allen here. He wouldn't pick up a Center and right tackle when there were several available. Additionally, when he won't even spend enough to hit the spending minimum required by the CBA I'd that's a pretty damn good indication he doesnt' want to spend money.

Have you ever contributed anything of substance on this board? Pick anything football related that you want to debate me on and I'll be more then happy to hand you your ass.

You couldn't hand my 2 month old his ass in a football debate.

You want an example? The Atlanta Falcons. You want another? The Denver Broncos. One more? The New York Jets.

I've contributed more substance in one day on this board than you have your entire tenure.

And just so you are aware, paying Jared Allen had NOTHING to do with why he's not here anymore. But keep talking out of your ass.

The morons screwed up by not drafting OL this year. They were too hell bent on switching to the shitty 3-4.

Next years position of disaster with be the LB corps.

No DJ and probibly no Vrabel.

Lets see what Studebaker has.

[QUOTE=The Bad Guy;6240626
You want an example? The Atlanta Falcons. You want another? The Denver Broncos. One more? The New York Jets.

I've contributed more substance in one day on this board than you have your entire tenure.

.[/QUOTE]

Don't know much about ATL, but the Broncos never had a piss poor line. They picked up Clady in the 1st, Harris in 4th?, Kuper in 6th?, Casey FA. Hamilton been there a long time. Now the Jets spent 1st round picks on Mangold/Ferguson, then spent tons of money on the other positions. I think they have 4 former 1st round picks on the line.

This line could definately be bad again next year if we're not going to draft players/pay $ in FA. And even if we pick up players in the draft, it's highly unlikely they start right out of the gates.

this is not a face that inspires confidence. he basically looks out of his mind to me.

http://www.kcchiefs.com/media/staff/bill_muir.jpg

The Falcons offensive line was horrid the season before Ryan got there.

The Broncos had to rebuild their line and did it in basically one off-season and 2 drafts.

The point is, they fixed their lines in less than 3 years.

I think fixing the oline starts by not trying to believe some players are what they are not.

Goff is NOT a starting calibur player anymore
Rudy is NOT a center

Im a patient man, but seeing the same weakness exploited game after game and no apparent attempt to fix it and instead focusing on other positions, is a little disturbing as a fan.

I simply can not understand why Goff stays on the field when there are two or three players that have displayed better ability and are much younger.

If we shuffled the line and came out after the bye like this:

Albert
Waters
Smith/Alleman
Rudy/Ndukwe
Ryan O.

the line has far fewer problems s it does now and it would give us a better idea of where we need to go in the offseason.

JMO

The Falcons offensive line was so horrid last year they felt comfortable enough to let a pro bowler right guard in Keynan Forney walk away.

The Broncos got a couple of better players at key positions, but their line was never 1/4 as dysfunctional as ours to start with.

Regarding Jared Allen, the ONLY reason he's not here is because Clark wouldn't pay him. It's always about the money and that was only about the money.

The line got old, CP didn't draft well....

last years FA class was not gangbusters for the money. There have been mistakes made...

But I disagree that it'll take 3 years and with the assertion that CH is tight.

It was about Jared Allen keeping his nose clean and only that. It wasn't about paying him. Carl Peterson paid his boys every single time their contract came up.

The Falcons line was ****ing terrible. Forney played like shit in his last year in Atlanta and has continued to play like shit since, which is why SD let him go. Wayne Gandy was terrible. Todd Weiner sucked at RT. They replaced their entire right side of the line as well as their LT and did it with success in ONE season.

If you feel that strongly about it we'll have to agree to disagree. Allen accepted a contract from the Vikings that protected them in event of drug suspension, he would've accepted the same contract here but Clark doesn't want to spend money. Atlanta's line wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

Guess we'll find out a lot about our front office this offseason...

I mostly agree with this post. What CP could never decipher is good talent from elite talent.

Guys like Jared should be treated differently than the average joe.

Jared became dominant in his third year and we never heard a peep about $$$ from him through his whole rookie contract that was of a 4th rounder. When you have a pass rusher that is as complete of a defender as Jared is/was you have to treat him the same as you do your QB because he is almost as important to your chances at a superbowl.

Jared will go off when it gets to the postseason this year and I bet he helps them win a title THIS YEAR.

I said it before and Ill say it again, I wouldnt have traded him for two firsts.

This. By doing the switch, it forced us to flush our 4-3 defensive linemen for nothing, and use half of our top draft picks for 2-3 years to do the transition.

A team with lots of needs does not need to switch to another type of defense which creates a bucket full of fresh needs.

They replaced a defense that set a league record for fewest sacks, and some of you people are still bitching about the switch to the 3-4.

Newsflash: You can't expect to improve 45+ positions in one season and, no matter where you do improve, you'll still have areas which suck enough that impatient and/or stupid fans will be bitching even though it was a 2 win team the season before.

Rudy and Wade's contracts are both up this year (per Walterfootball), so it will be telling which one we re-sign and/or draft a replacement.

No, they didn't improve the sacks numbers because of a scheme change.

The sack numbers are improved because Dorsey is devloping into a player that is disruptive on the D-Line.

Had they remained in a 43, and used Dorsey as the UT with Hali as the LDE, the improvement would very likely be much the same as it is now.

The last draft should have been dedicated to offense.
The next to defense.

They appear to be ass backwards.

We still could have drafted Jackson in the first. Cassel and Vrabel with the 2nd. From that point on was where you would have to rate the draft a big FAIL with regards to the offensive line.

We won't go into the first two rounds in this draft in this thread...

Question from O-line experts on the board:

Can Waters be turned into a Center and thrive?

Yep.

Even if you want to reach for Jackson, and the 2nd is already gone, you still could have done much, much more to improve this team, and specifically, the OL. Examples:

R3: Antoine Caldwell, Louis Vasquez, Kraig Urbik, Michael Johnson, Mike Wallace

R4: Jonathan Luigs, TJ Lang, Lawrence Sidbury, Austin Collie, Troy Kropog

R5: Johnny Knox, Jasper Brinkley, Fenuki Tupou, Macho Harris, Jamon Meridith, Duke Robinson

R6: Matt Slauson, Brandon Gibson, James Davis

R7: AQ Shipley, Julian Edelman, Zach Follett

No.

Honestly i think Water's problem might stem from motivation.

i wonder whether he really gives a shit whether Cassel gets smashed or not.

I disagree.

Waters has clearly lost a step, and isn't as physical as he was just three years ago.

His skills have simply dimininshed due to age, and by next season, or the season after, he will be a shell of his former self, much as Mike Goff is right now.

I do agree with his point about the Chiefs being cheap...

Luigs, Duke and Shipley could help us.

But really, Michael Johnson isnt a better pick than Magee IMHO for this scheme.

I fully agree that we ****ed up by not taking a linemen till Collin.

I agree, though I think Laz makes a good point.

Remember last year, when the QB would get sacked for holding the ball too long, or generally doing something stupid?

Waters would get visibly pissed. Everyone in the stadium and watching on TV knew he was pissed at the QB, or at one of his fellow OL.

Haven't seen that once this year.

He doesn't need to yell now, the head coach does so much of it yelling is probably ignored.

LMAO

....this is the barometer, IMO.

The problem is that he's every bit as guilty as the rest of the scrubs on this line for it's woes nw, so he's showing a little bit of wisdom.

Can't argue that.

Why not? Not arguing with you. Just thinking the man has some talent but might have lost a step limiting his OG effectiveness (pulling, etc.). Is it really out of the question to try him at center next year? He has already responded well to a more major position change.

Waters job is to block, not police the QB or make demands from management.....I don't care if he's pissed, unless he's going to turn ithe agression against the defense.

First, he's on his last leg as is.

Second, he's already getting abused by interior linemen, and personally, I don't think he's be an upgrade at all to what we have.

If anything, Wade Smith should be playing center until we draft one.

Face it folks, the guy is done. The decline over the past 3 years is obvious to anyone objective enough to actually see it.

It's hard to imagine they can be as bad, because it's hard to imagine they could be much worse.

We'll be better at LT. Branden Albert continues to learn to play at a new weight in a new scheme. And I can't imagine a scenario where they don't bring in at least 2-3 guys they think could compete for a starting position at Guard, Center, or Right Tackle--that's not hard to do if you use some 2nd or 3rd round picks. Given the lack of resources, the CHiefs definitely won't build an all-world o-line. But I don't see how they couldn't improve quite a bit just by actually trying to bring some guys in.

Although money talks, I have a hard time imagining quality guys even getting into Arrowhead for an interview before they are signed elsewhere right now. Draft looks like the best route to see any gains on the O-line.

And we don't really have to do that with our first two picks either, as there should be some solid players available in the late 2nd, 3rd, and 4th rounds that could really make this line pretty good... in 2011.

Then draft a WR and RB in that draft, and we should be good to go.

Assuming Cassel puts it together. Otherwise we're back at square one.

I dont remember Shields being as bad as Waters is this year...

I personally think all this weight loss stuff killed some of these guys.

There is a such thing as being to light and having the lightest OL in the league is not something I would want.

I know you have me on ignore, but for everybody else.

The main reason Allen was signed had everything to do with money and respect. CP is a douche bag and he thought it would be cool to lowball the hell out of Jared Allen, not return his agent's calls, and then publicly insult him and think that Allen would eventually cave in and accept a lower contract. It's the same approach CP took with LJ, except LJ eventually gave in. Lord knows how many free agents CP drove away with the same approach and because of his reputation for such shady tactics (Samari Rolle anyone)?

Anyway, I know the Allen argument is irrelevant. But don't think for a second that he wouldn't be in KC if the GM treated him with at least a hint of respect. Hell, Minnesota signed him to a contract that had some clear behavioral implications, so it's inaccurate to say that the Chiefs couldn't have negotiated some kind of contract with a behavioral out clause.

Yeah, none of us were saying this in January, 2009.

:rolleyes: OMG Could you possibly cry more about Haley yelling?

:clap:

Check out the GIF'D UP thread. Waters is DONE.

Todd Haley could probably find a guy off the street to replace him... :evil:

I think they'll try to get at least a couple of free agent Offensive Linemen during the off-season. Here's the current Free Agent list for 2010:

http://www.footballsfuture.com/2010/fa/ol.html

Jahri Evans, New Orleans Saints (26)
Jahri Evans is continuing to grade out as the team’s best run-blocking linemen week after week. The Saints have done a nice job of efficiently running the ball through the middle and on the right side of the line. His continual high level of play and positive, team-first attitude should translate to a high-end offensive guard contract at year’s end. Expect the Saints, who have nothing but positive things to say towards Evans, to richly reward him for his hard work and production.

Logan Mankins, New England Patriots (27)
Logan Mankins has been a very consistent player for the Patriots since he was drafted. That type of consistency is difficult to match, but with free agency inflating the value of offensive guards, the Patriots may end up letting him walk if the price isn’t right. They drafted a couple interior linemen last year and have to use some of their free money to re-sign other players. From what Mankins has said, he wants to stay on this winning franchise, but he could be one of the top players available next offseason.

Marcus McNeill, San Diego Chargers (25)
McNeill isn’t playing at an elite level this year, but is still an above average left tackle. He’s one of the “bigger” names at the left tackle position thanks to his spectacular, hyped rookie season. McNeill has also been undercompensated the last few years playing on his rookie contract as a 2nd round pick, which may incline him to ask for more money than he “deserves.” Any of the Chargers could feasibly be had this offseason and McNeill is no different, but with some of the offensive line woes of the Chargers, McNeill may be one of their top priorities. His long-term neck and back problems could be in the back of the team’s mind as well.

Daryn Colledge, Green Bay Packers (27)
Colledge is no longer viewed as the solution at left tackle in Green Bay. Mid-round TJ Lang has taken over the back-up position there. That alone is enough to make his value take a significant plunge. This will especially be overstated because of his poor performance in the team’s biggest game to date – Monday Night in Minnesota. Still, he’s an above average starting offensive guard and a great pass protector in the interior. Colledge’s value will most likely be highest to the Packers because he’s a great fit for what they do and they know his true value.

Jared Gaither, Baltimore Ravens (23) – Restricted FA
After being taken off the field on a stretcher in New England, Gaither luckily suffered no season or career threatening injury. His return to the field should come in the upcoming weeks. The Ravens have found their bookend tackles, with him and Oher on either side, and even if they can’t settle on a long-term deal with Gaither this offseason, they still have the ability to put a tender on him. At the very least, it would force teams to give up serious compensation for his services. Gaither’s length and athleticism make him an ideal fit at left tackle, but could possibly get him for less coin if they think Oher is capable of playing LT and pay Gaither on the right side.

Winston Justice, Philadelphia Eagles (24)
Justice is finally starting to live up to his expectations as a 2nd round selection. He’s played well in pass protection at right tackle replacing the oft-injured Shawn Andrews. The Eagles are in a tricky situation. Andrews has flashed so much potential and played well when on the field, but has struggled to give them enough snaps without getting injured. Should the team re-sign Justice, they could very well be putting Justice on the bench at the cost of a starter. They already have last year’s free agent acquisition, Stacy Andrews expensively riding the bench.

Kevin Mawae, Tennessee Titans (38)
Mawae has started all six games for the Titans this year, but with his contract expiring, the line may turn to Leroy Harris who will have been groomed for 3 years, sparingly seeing the field. If Mawae is up for another season, he could land on a number of teams, or just re-sign in Tennessee. He still has a little gas left in the tank and it the Titans pass on him, several teams will be lining up for him and accept the leadership he brings to the team.

Chad Clifton, Green Bay Packers (33)
Clifton has suffered a lingering ankle injury this season forcing the Packers to retreat to other options at left tackle. Even when on the field, Clifton hasn’t looked like half the player he was in his prime where he was one of the league’s best pass blockers. The years of injury and battle have worn on Clifton who has lost some of his discipline and been beaten on several occasions. If Clifton isn’t offered another contract in Green Bay, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the franchise’s great blind side protector call it quits.

Mike Gandy, Arizona Cardinals (30)
Gandy has struggled immensely and should definitely be upgraded this offseason. He doesn’t hold much value on the left side and may be asked to move to the right side for the rest of his career. If Arizona can’t find a better replacement, they could potentially try and get one more year out of him, but the Cardinals would be pushing their luck.

Other Notable Free Agents:

Eugene Amano, Tennessee Titans (27)
David Baas, San Francisco 49ers (27)
Khalif Barnes, Oakland Raiders (27)
Alex Barron, St. Louis Rams (26)
Mike Brisiel, Houston Texans (26)
Jeromey Clary, San Diego Chargers (25) – Restricted FA
Nick Cole, Philadelphia Eagles (25)
Willie Colon, Pittsburgh Steelers (26)
Ryan Cook, Minnesota Vikings (26)
Tyson Clabo, Atlanta Falcons (28)
Harvey Dahl, Atlanta Falcons (28)
Cornell Green, Oakland Raiders (33)
Rex Hadnot, Cleveland Browns (27)
Ben Hamilton, Denver Broncos (32)
Justin Hartwig, Pittsburgh Steelers (30)
Stephon Heyer, Washington Redskins (25) – Restricted FA
Richie Incognito, St. Louis Rams (26)
Jon Jansen, Washington Redskins (33)
Charlie Johnson, Indianapolis Colts (25)
Nick Kaczur, New England Patriots (30)
Chris Kuper, Denver Broncos (26)
Deuce Lutui, Arizona Cardinals (26)
Stephen Neal, New England Patriots (32)
Rudy Niswanger, Kansas City Chiefs (26)
Donald Penn, Tampa Bay Buccaneers (26)
Chester Pitts, Houston Texans (30)
Manuel Ramirez, Detroit Lions (26) – Restricted FA
Rob Sims, Seattle Seahawks (25)
Chris Spencer, Seattle Seahawks (27)
Jason Spitz, Green Bay Packers (26)
Adam Terry, Baltimore Ravens (27)
Jeremy Trueblood, Tampa Bay Buccaneers (26)
Bobbie Williams, Cincinnati Bengals (32)
Marshal Yanda, Baltimore Ravens (24)

Yanda and Mankins would go a long way toward fixing this offense.

You're going to incite Dane's anger, uncapped year style.

:LOL: I'm waiting for it to unfold...:popcorn:

Here, I think Dane's out shagging three 18-year old nymphomaniacs while driving 140 mph in his Ferrari, eating caviar and drinking Dom, so allow me:

YOU ****ING MORON!

WHAT PART OF UNCAPPED YEAR DO YOU NOT ****ING UNDERSTAND?

NONE OF THOSE ****ING LINEMEN (THEY ALL SUCK BTW) WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR THE CHIEFS TO SIGN!

YOU ****ING MORON!

You are missing at least 3 Jesus Fried Chickens for good measure...

Lucky bastage!

I didn't say that that sacks numbers changed because of a scheme change. My point was that the defense sucked in the 4-3 last season, so bitching about the change to a 3-4 is just idiotic. Bitching about changing if the 4-3 had been working would at least make sense.

As for the "ass backwards" claim:

<ul><li>The Steelers are considered a top drafting team. They took corners with picks in the 3rd and 5th rounds, and defensive tackles in the 1st and 6th.</li>

<li>The Giants went with defensive backs in rounds 6 and 7, as well as going linebacker in round 2, RB in the 4th and QB in the 5th.</li>

<li>The Colts went DT in rounds 2 and 4, and CB in round 3.</li>

<li>The Patriots were loaded with 12 picks and could take some gambles, but the team used 6 of those picks on defense, along with one on a long snapper, one on a player recovering from ACL surgery (Tate), and one that was a QB conversion gamble (Edelman)</li></ul>

All that 'great' offense, and top drafting teams were taking multiple defensive players, often at the top of the draft. That's because teams draft according to their plan, and their draft board. That plan differing from a message board poster's preference is not the same as that plan being wrong.

You looking at 4 of the top teams in the league to justify the Chiefs' plan?

You're telling me that because those teams, teams with fewer holes combined than the Chiefs, can be used to illustrate that the Chiefs draft wasn't backasswards?

This team has more holes than the PGA tour.

Thier plan may work, but the value in the last draft was on offense, the value in the next draft is on defense.

A team with as many holes as the Chiefs should have followed a plan that took advantage of that value.

But they pissed on that value because they had to switch immediately.

Quite frankly, I'm not convinced that Pioli is any better than Carl.

Even though this has been stated hundreds of times these past few months...

THIS!

:clap:

Hell, he thinks he can find 5 OL off the street...If we only win 2 games this year, that quote will come back to bite him in the arse.