Why people are disappointed: Exhibit A - Talent Evaluation
 

Since there seems to be several myths, excuses and some flat-out lies about why some folks are pissed off about this team right now, I thought I'd put together a few threads explaining, as clearly as I can, where people are coming from.

One of the bigger excuses is the infamous, "Pioli inherited a shitty team."

Let me make this clear: I do not disagree.

However, that doesn't excuse the Executive of the Decade for the team being no better now than it was this time last year - and you could make an argument that it is worse.

And one of the reasons why this team still sucks is simple:

The Executive of the Decade missed BADLY on talent evaluation.



I just spent a few minutes researching the transactions Pioli has made since taking the job, and it's even worse than I originally thought.

Counting draft picks, trades and signings, Pioli is responsible for FORTY FIVE new players to this organization.

And of these 45, it's fair to say that only Succop and Chambers are clear upgrades to their predecessors.

Two. Out of forty-five.

That's a whopping 4% success rate.



I'm sorry, but blaming Herm here is ridiculous. The best players on this team are Herm's players.

Looking at the current roster - including the active roster, PS and IR - 54% of the players currently in this organization are Pioli's.

Exactly half of the current starting 22 are Pioli's.

And this team is ONE win better than a 2008 squad that featured Tyler ****ing Thigpen at QB, and employed Gunther Cunningham as the DC.

With the majority being Pioli's hand-picked players.



Let the excuses flow like fine wine.

Discus.

This ought to be fun - let's hit that Millionth post.

Pfffttttt.....

"You were expecting this team to win 12 games this year".

I agree. They had a sub par off season. And that is being extremely nice. The biggest thing that stands out in my mind is the lack of help on the oline this year. The oline they knew had to be addressed not a stand pat wait and see thing. The defense i can see a little more because of the transition to see who could make it that way it was one less player to fix. But hardly anyone made a great transition so we are back to square one.

I get the feeling that our roster moves this past season were heavily influenced by the pending uncapped year. In addition, we were all but told to expect less pure talent in exchange for higher football character.

Getting a roster filled with talented high football character players will take several seasons. That's been my expectation from the start.

That said, the one area I've been disappointed with was the lack of a timely priority on the OL.

I wasn't good at discus. How about the long or triple jump?

Pioli got a mediocre team, and overpaid for a key mediocre player. He let a head coach fire the OC and develop and call the plays. These are no excuses, only reasons for a substandard season.

The lack of communication between QB and receivers is one of the greatest problems, beside Cassel panicking in the pocket. The underused roll-out pass, bootleg option, and inside slant are some things that Haley hasn't implemented.

Clayton's article of last nite hit it pretty well on the nail: if at first you don't succeed, keep doing what you think will work, over, and over, and over. Play selection has been a key weakness in our offense.

Pioli better hit the bricks as soon as FA begins (depending on the CBA existing/not existing etc).
I was willing to Give Pioli a 'pass' for 5 years or so...but, I'm changing my mind.

I have zero confidence in this franchise - top to bottom. Sh*t,...they can't even remodel a stadium right.

Here's the thing, jaz:

People say that the cupboard was bare when Pioli was hired.

In that case, it shouldn't have been too ****ing difficult to find some players that were better than what we had in 2008.

No one is saying they had to be Pro-Bowlers. Just some serviceable players that were upgrades over their 2008 predecessors.

It's not rocket science.

It's going to take a lot to make me happy this offseason. And yes I know that the Chiefs don't give two shits about how I feel or what I want....but I'd like to see 75% of this shit happen.

1. Fire Pendergast and bring in a competent 3-4 defensive coordinator.

2. Hire an offensive coordinator and let him call the plays.

3. Hire a QB coach and actually let him coach the QBs.

4. Bring in competition at the QB position. And I mean actual competition...not another QB that will get 10 reps throughout the offseason and then Cassel gets the job handed to him.

5. Draft a ****ing playmaker in the 1st round. I better not see a defensive lineman or offensive lineman with a top 5 pick.

6. Be active in Free Agency. I know that if it's uncapped that there won't be a lot (if any) good free agents out there. But if it is a capped year....then we better be filling ****ing holes this offseason.

I agree with every aspect of that post.

Oh....I forgot one more.

7. Mike Brown better not be on this team next year. That goes for Goff, Niswanger and Vrabel as well.

Good post, Pest.

#6 is what makes the fail of this past offseason even harder to swallow. If there's an uncapped year, we have to be ****ing perfect in the draft, and we all know that's not going to happen.

We missed our chance, and we're going to pay for it if there's an uncapped year.

I think the biggest disappointment is that the one thing Pioli had on his resume to be a GM was talent evaluation, and to this point that has been a fail. For all those who say he inherited a bad team...over 50% of the roster has turned over from last year. The only players, outside the PK, that are preforming are Carl picks and signings.

For those who say the O-line sucks...we knew it last year what did Scott miss??? WR's same thing. We drafted a player with the #3 pick that doesn't fit our system and the past 3 first round pick are now playing out of position.

I think the GM role is more than Pioli expected...he is no longer just the top scout. In fact that is just a small part of his new job.

Other than draft picks....the choices were nothing but left overs! Chambers, Wade.....etc. just left outs......

Hand picked left overs and throw aways. Draft picks and Cassel were his ONLY hand picked players.

I agree with all of this. This new management has already used up their allotment of mulligans.

Dude......Pioli was hired on January 13, 2009.

He had free agency to get some players that would help this team. He chose not to.

So now Pioli didn't have the free agency period to acquire players?

Oh, wait. He did. And he used it to sign Goff, Engram, etc.

I already see your other bullshit excuse coming, so I'll just address it now:

"Who would want to sign with a shitty team?"

Let's ask Jason Brown, who signed with the Rams. We sure could have used a young, aspiring center.

Or TJ Houshmanzadeh, who signed with the Seahawks. We didn't need a WR, right?

Should I keep going?

Let's take a look at some of the free agents that Pioli chose not to sign....that could have helped this team.

Chris Canty - Could have played 3-4 DE for us....for less money than Tyson Jackson. Thus freeing up our 1st round pick to go BPA.

Jason Brown - Could have filled the whole at OC that we had.

Sean Jones - Easily could have competed for a safety position in our defense.

Panties in a bunch much? Calm down, I just disagree with you, I am not callin' yer mama names! Was there spittle flying from your lips while you typed that?

Okay, I agree, Pioli missed some great opportunities. Opportunities that signed with organizations that had experienced front offices that had all the policies and proceedures down pat. They didn't sign with a team that had a fresman GM and head coach that didn't have a firm grasp of policies and proceedures.

I am just saying....give them their freshman mistakes.

We could have hired a GM and Head Coach that had been fired else where, but the Chiefs elected to hire a non experienced HC and GM, gambling that they had what it takes. I still figure that is a better gamble than hiring a HC and GM that wasn't good enough elsewhere.


Nah, you are right, you know that you are right, and nothing will change your mind. So I won't try, it would be a waste of both of our time. Besides that, I worry about your blood pressure.

Jackson may have been the BPA on their board. We have no way of knowing.

I think Brown would have been a great pickup.

I'll say what I've said probably 10,000 times in the last 9 years on this board, you can be disappointed with this year, I'm not sure who wouldn't be, but from within that red haze don't lose sight of the fact that this isn't the only year they have. It was always a multiple-year proposition, and positive or negative, what happened in 2009, offseason or inseason, isn't any kind of indictment on the future. Things may get better. Or they may not. But they do have time and many more opportunities left to fix the franchise.

I agree, Keg, and good post.

However, just because we all knew this was a multiple year proposition does not make it acceptable to completely waste one of those years.

We are literally no better off than we were this time last year.

You could argue that the team is worse.

So basically, we're starting over, yet again.

/thread

Dude come on, you should have let the thread get to 4-5 pages before you ended it.

I agree that the talent was misjudged. However, I also give Pioli a pass, for now, on that one. Remember, Pioli got this gig late in the game. By the time due diligence was completed regarding coaching availability and veteran free agents, most of the good pickins were gone. To think that he could evaluate the talent, most of whom he had never met, evaluate the coaches, manage marketing of a failed franchise, and concentrate on the draft all in 2 months is an impossible thing to ask. By the time he had a chance to see what he had, it was 6 weeks before the season, and he probably thought "holy crap" to himself. I want to see what direction this team heads with regards to offnsive and defensive coordinators, free agent pickups, and the draft before I get too disappointed in the job he has done. Imagine signing on as the GM of this team when he did. What the heck would any of us done differently? We dont know all the circumstances either. Maybe he wanted Crennel but Crennel wasn't ready. Maybe Chan Gaily wasn't exactly truthful in his adaptability as the OC. We simply dont know. I hope he is the right guy for the job, but there is simply no way we can tell until midway through next season. As much as that sucks, it is what it is.

You know how good they are at talent evaluation?

Larry Johnson was run out on the field over Charles repeatedly, think about that.

cant argue there. But elsewhere, what talent were they evaluating? By the time they got to see what they had, and realize it wasn't just due to poor conditioning, poor commitment, and poor coaching, there wasn't anthing better out there. I think the proof of that is the sheer numbers of players they kept bringing in at offensive line and receiver positions.

Why is Mike Brown playing over Morgan? Even where it seems they at least have another option they refuse to even try it.

These guys look like boobs.

C'mon, man.

Hell, Pioli's old team PLAYED the Chiefs. They knew exactly what they had, and what they didn't have. Plus you have pro personnel scouts who scout every NFL team.

Christ, even the FANS knew this roster was talent depleted, and where the holes were.

He wasn't flying blind, here.

He just whiffed. Simple as that.

Zactly!

I honestly would like to know what his offseason plan was, right now it doesn't look like there was one.

Other than "hey those past guys were so bad we'll make these players better just cause"

I like boobs........

I would guess it is because either the genius DCord. has told Haley that he gives them the "best chance to win", and Haley has too many other hats to wear to know enough about the D to argue, OR, Morgan isn't a Haley guy and doesn't "do it our way".

And the other shoe drops. "The Right 53"

Because who needs talent when you have players that don't act out and don't talk back to their coaches.

Right now I'd be happy to not be a Todd Haley guy after what I've seen out of him.

I agree he wiffed to some degree, but like I said, with the time frame that everything happened, what was he gonna do differently for this year?

I don't think this year was wasted. It was the dump year and the year to get a lot of tape on people for next offseason, several of them players who were let go late in the offseason or during the year. I think they wanted to take a hard look at a lot of young players both on the Chiefs as well as on the Cardinals and Patriots, players they were familiar with and (this is a guess) thought worth a look, and now they have a better idea of what kind of players they are. While there were a few free agents who I think would have made an impact over the long term, I don't think going whole-hog into free agency would have been the right move for this stage of the rebuild. As far as I recall they really only have two new contracts that have long-term ramifications on the squad (Cassel and Jackson) and they should have all kinds of freedom when it comes to spending, not just in 2010 but beyond that. The real issue will be whether the CBA is reworked and what kind of players they'll be able to look at. Like I've said, I think most of the people they brought in were stop-gap and the real moves come later. I think instead of trying to build on a rotten foundation, they decided to tear the whole house down and build new, with a few supports in place so they have enough numbers to actually play games (guys like Brown and Wade and Vrabel and Chambers, etc). And I've been fine with that since the start. The season's gone pretty much exactly the way I thought it would. I'm not a good loser, as they say, so I tend to get pissed as hell the day of a loss, but the sun always rises and so far I've been able to remember what's going on.

Doesn't mean I think they're going fix anything, or that I'm defending anybody, just that I think I have a vague idea of what's going on and I'm going to watch and see what happens. I think it's too early for panic.

How about get a player to build around...I don't think that's asking to much.

Are you saying he couldn't have signed Jason Brown? TJ Houshmanzedah? Chris Canty? Michael Boley? Igor Olshansky?

The list goes on and on.

The man took the job in mid-January. It's not like he was hired in early April.

Agree to disagree then I guess. I don't see these "supports" to the foundation you're talking about.

This was the year to begin building that foundation, and here we are 11 months later, and we're still looking at a muddy hole in the ground.

Nah man, he gets a pass just cause he's not Carl even though he made a bunch of very Carl es

I agree. Play it safe in '09, and then get ready to go crazy with the ABUNDANCE of talent that will be available if there's an uncapped year.

And talent is overrated in this league. Far, far more important to establish an amendable environment to winning.

Javelin ;)

that sounds delicious.

Nice. Have you seen Cassel throw one of these? Impressive arm strength.

http://www.houseofdiabolique.com/hall/lamar/javelin.gif

I was talking about supports in temporary terms, not permanent solutions. Which is why I used the word supports.I don't think we'll be able to tell until 2011 whether Jackson is an actual foundation player or not, because of the nature of his position, but that's what he was brought in to be. Cassel was also brought in to be a foundation player, but they didn't put anything in place around him, so his impact was going to be limited by default. Which doesn't mean I think his play is fine or anything like that, but more on that later.

I don't think you can discount holdovers from Herm just because they're holdovers from Herm. I think Dorsey has shown he can play in this system, although hurting his knee again (if that's what happened yesterday) is troubling. Hali has been fine. Both Flowers and Carr should be starters for a long time. Guys like Gilberry and Studebaker have shown some promise. Page will hopefully come back from IR. All young players with the potential to contribute for years.

I think the defense is not far off from making huge strides (talking in personnel terms). A safety and a couple of linebackers and I could see them moving up 15 or 20 spots in 2010. Although I'm not sure what kind of job Pendergast can do. Time will tell I guess.

The offense is probably going to take longer. They had less to start with, and offense generally always takes longer. The only untouchables right now in my mind are Charles and Bowe. I think Albert's going to be fine in the long term, but as far as I'm concerned the other four spots are going to have to be filled in the next two years, and sooner better than later. I think Pope has played well enough to stay (much to my surprise, honestly). But I think they need 2 receivers, a starter and a slot - I think right now, with Bowe out, they're starting a bunch of 4s. I don't know what they have in Cassel - although the last few weeks have been bad - until they have anybody around him. I've said all along that I don't think anybody could succeed behind center here with this roster, and I believe that as much now as I did in September. The question is whether he could succeed behind the reins of a talented offense, and right now I just don't know. I'm not going to say yes, but I'm also not going to say no. Just...I don't know.

Anyway, I think they have started building the core of the team. It's just hard to see it in the face of the way they play. I think the 2010 offseason will tell us a lot more than the 2009 did, in any case. The personnel department is now completely Pioli guys, there's been a shitton of roster turnover, they have tape on everybody, and I don't think there's any viable excuse for them not to show a great deal of improvement, both on the roster and on the field. They should be a more competitive team, fall somewhere into the league average range of 6-10 to 10-6, and then in 2011 they should be fully in the division race.

Those have been my expectations since the hire was made, and that's what they continue to be, regardless of anything that's happened in 2009.

There are a few reasons I would give Pioli some more time:

1) Hunt didn't hire him to just come in and "fix" the existing team. He hired him to change the entire culture of the football side of the operations. Pioli said from the beginning that doing this would not happen overnight and that they may have to step back before moving forward. If Clark wanted to stay the course with the roster and culture in place, he should have promoted Kuharic and kept Herm around.

2) Pioli wasn't able to get his own personnel department and scouts set until after the draft, when contracts expired and new hires were available. Now this may not seem like a big deal or it may just be some excuse if you believe all personnel departments are created equally and it is just the top guy who makes all the calls, but I'll be curious to see if there is any difference this coming offseason.

3) Rookies usually can't be fully evaluated their first year. Some rooks look great and just fade after a few years, others bust out in the 2nd or 3rd year. I'm not going to sit here and say we had a great draft by any means, but I think you need to let the class mature a bit more before writing it off.

4) This is not new to Pioli, in New England they did a very similar thing in 2000, taking an 8-8 football team, getting rid of a bunch of guys and signing a bunch of scrubs, and going 5-11, and starting the next year off 1-3 before going on their run. Now they had a better core of veteran players in place to start with than we do, but I think the philosophy is to bring in guys who buy into the "system" and slowly start to build that roster. By year three, a lot of the guys starting or playing significant portions for us now should be valuable depth if the so called "process" works and better and better talent is brought in.

I agree that right now a lot of the moves look bad and we're not much better off than we were to start with. And if we don't have a significant talent influx this offseason, then something is amiss and you can go to the top there, because he's now had enough time not only to get his front office pieces in place, but he's had the time to get a firsthand look at the roster he has and who fits in and who doesn't.

Pioli may well be in over his head, and maybe he's not going to be able to get it done here. The biggest thing I have against him right now is not on the personnel front, but on the coaching hire front. Haley is bugging me more and more every week. I think the biggest reflection on a roster that isn't improving is the quality of the coaching. I don't care who you have playing, good coaches will always get their guys to improve as the year goes on. We're sinking. And we could arguably have three more wins with a better prepared football team. So if there are not some big changes on the staff this offseason, I don't think Pioli will have much of a chance even if he has an A+ draft this offseason...

I'm dissapointed we can't get a first quarter TD. More pathetic than any thing. It takes two quarters to get a field goal. Every ounce of energy they have to drive 70 yds just for a field goal. That's what we are watching on the field. What are we the leagues worst at 3rd down conversions. It's everything the coaches & the players that arn't getting the job done. We have regressed this year not progressed that is what was expected is progession get better as the season goes.

I would like to see Cassel take this team down field and score a TD in the first quarter at least. He needs to find a way to do it then maybe they could build confidence for the rest of the game and play better as a team.

I would much rather see Brodie play than Cassel allways have but not going to happen so Cassel needs to grow a pair and get the job done.

Maybe Clark told him no free agents because the budget is tight right now. Those Stadium renovations are costing a lot of money. That may not be the reason but after hearing about the whole chan gailey thing this cannot be discounted at all.

If that's the case.....then Clark Hunt needs to get the **** out.

It absolutely can be discounted.

NFL owners have been chasing Pioli for years. He turned them all down to stay in NE.

You're going to try to convince me that when he finally takes a job, and leaves NE, he decides on a place where the owner tells him to fix his team, but not spend money?

Im just saying that it is a factor to consider instead of putting 100% of the blame on Pioli.

Bull****.

They paid out the same to Jackson and Cassel than they would have if they had stayed put and drafted Sanchez, Mauluga, and brought in Olshansky and Houshmanzillie.

The owner told them to not fire Chan Gailey. I could easily see Clark saying well we have a high draft pick to sign and a qb to lock up and the stadium renovations to deal with also. We just dont have the money to sign big $ free agents

This is nonsense

I guess i dont understand why it is so hard to believe that this happened? I am not saying it did happen but it has to be considered a possibility.

Hunts are laissez-faire when it comes to running their football team thats why.

You should consider the possibility that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

No, it doesn't.

Unless you think Pioli is the mother of all dumbasses.

He passed on the GM job for one of the best run organizations in the NFL a few years back, and you're telling me he's going to take a job to rebuild a POS, and be OK with being told he can't spend the money to do so?

I've seen some stupid things claimed here today, but this might take the cake.

Yep the Seattle job with Microsoft money behind it.

Could you give an actual reason instead of just calling me dumb?

Actually, I was talking about the Giants job after Ernie Accorsi retired.

But another example, nonetheless.

Since Pioli is so bad why don't you mother ****ers step up and demand he be fired? Otherwise I don't see the point in this disucssion other then stating the obvious.

READING IS FUNDAMENTAL.

Reasons gave been given. Quit ignoring them, and read.

I guess he could have signed some of those guys. We didn't have a coach until what, the end of Feb? I agree with you that more could have been done. But, I guess I agree with Keg, in that I think this is a long term plan, not a fix it now plan. I do agree with you also that to some extent, this year is wasted, just not completely. They found out all this here
1. they have a pretty darn good RB, but need another to carry some of the load
2. They need TE's
3. The entire O line sucks
4. D line is in good shape, but could use a nose guard even if for depth
5. We are good at corner
6. We need major help at safety
7. Cassel isn't gonna carry the team on his back. He needs playmakers.
8. Need receivers, bad.
Now, alot of us here thought the D line was crap. Most here including me thought Charles was decent for a third down back but not much more. I really think this season was a waste for us as fans, but not for the GM.

Hello???

<--------

HEY!

Many of us knew all these things before Pioli was ever hired.

Like I've said before, it's not rocket science.

ROFL

Does George Blowfish not know what he's talking about?

Dane, you said we're $41M under the cap, and I swear I just saw something posted earlier where Clark's contributions to the renovations is $40M, if that's true don't you think it's just a little more than a coincidence?

The Hunt family kicked in $150 million, not $40 million.

Well then I'm obviously confused, which isn't very surprising. I find it hard to believe it isn't a factor at all though.

If the Hunts really wanted to save money they could have told Pioli to stick with Thigpen. Who certainly looks good right now. Makes me sick.

Or they would have told Pioli to keep Gailey. Oh wait they did.....

Like I've said, I agree with much of what you originally posted. However, pestilence posted about some things he would like done, and I agree. Bring in a proven 3-4 D coord, get a playmaker WR, playmaker safety, and some competent O linemen, and Pioli is gonna look like a genius again and all of us KC fans are gonna be praising him. All things he can and I believe will do this offseason.

Its not how much, its why did they blow their load on two players instead of spreading it out for better players.

Actually in December 2008, Hunt dropped another $75 million of his personal money into the stadium renovations and at that point, I posted that we'd see little if any free agency movement.

But that's NOT because of a lack of money. It's because the Hunts are notoriously cheap.

Furthermore, like OTWP stated, I highly doubt that after years of being pursued for a GM position, Scott Pioli would take a job with the caveat of not being able to spend money.

For proof, they shelled out over $30 million alone this year for Cassel and Jackson.

I personally believe that Pioli & Haley not only did a poor job of evaluating the talent available in the 2009 draft, but they also did a poor job of evaluating the existing talent on the roster.

Starting Niswanger and cutting Pollard being just two examples.

Pollard deserved to go Dane. He ****ing sucked.

How can you explain the fact that his play is far from "sucking" in Texas?

The coaches sucked. The scheme sucked. The players in front of him sucked.

Those factors cannot be blamed on Pollard.

Although some people will still do so.