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Donger 01-08-2010 11:24 AM

Could This Lump Power the Planet?
 
http://www.newsweek.com/id/222792

It doesn't look like much from the outside—just a drab, 10-story building on the campus of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, about an hour's drive east of San Francisco. But as I'm walking across the parking lot on a sunny day in October I can't help thinking that someday I might be telling my grandchildren about the time I came to this lab and met Edward Moses and saw the technology that was about to change the world.

Maybe this means I'm an optimist. Or even a sucker; a fool. All I know is that when I meet Moses, the 60-year-old scientist who runs this place, and he shows me a tiny pellet, about the size of the multivitamin I take every morning, and swears it will provide an endless supply of safe, clean energy, I want to believe him. It seems so ridiculously simple, so utterly doable. The pellet Moses holds is a model, but the real version will contain a few milligrams of deuterium and tritium, isotopes of hydrogen that can be extracted from water. If you blast the pellet with a powerful laser, you can create a reaction like the one that takes place at the center of the sun. Harness that reaction, and you've created a star on earth, and with the heat from that star you can generate electricity without creating any pollution. Forget about nuke plants, coal, oil, or wind and solar. "This is the real solar power," says Moses.

What Moses is talking about is controlled nuclear fusion—fusing nuclei rather than splitting a nucleus, as happens in ordinary nuclear-fission power plants. In a fission reaction, the nucleus of a uranium atom is split into two smaller atoms, releasing energy in the form of heat. The heat is used to make steam, which drives a turbine and generates electricity. In fusion energy, the second half of this process (heat makes steam makes electricity) remains the same. But instead of splitting the nucleus of an atom, you're trying to force a deuterium nucleus to merge, or fuse, with a tritium nucleus. When that happens, you produce helium and throw off energy.

Scientists have been trying to produce energy with fusion for decades. So far, they keep failing. It's not that fusion itself can't be achieved. Fusion takes place in every hydrogen-bomb explosion. The trick is controlling fusion so that instead of a one-time blast you get a series of tiny, controllable explosions. The joke is that fusion energy is only 40 years away, and will always be only 40 years away.

Moses believes, however, that his lab, which is called the National Ignition Facility, or NIF, has cracked the problem. The big challenge fusion has faced is lack of power. Even the biggest lasers in the world could not generate enough energy to smash nuclei together and make them stick. But the reason the building we're in is so huge—it covers the area of three football fields—is that it contains an enormous laser, or actually a system that combines 192 identical lasers and zaps them into a round chamber, about 30 feet in diameter, where the tiny pellet of fuel awaits the blast. NIF's laser, which took a decade to build and was completed earlier this year, can produce 60 times more energy than any other laser ever built. Right now it's still being tested. But next year Moses and his scientists will fire it up with a full load of deuterium-tritium fuel, and Moses feels confident it will achieve "ignition," meaning a controlled burn in which you get out more energy than you put in. Moses, an award-winning laser scientist with a wry sense of humor, explains the whole thing as he leads me on a tour through the NIF facility. It's a vast, beautiful, awe-inspiring machine, mind-blowing in its complexity, with miles of metal tubes—all part of a system that starts with a tiny pulse of light, channels that light through machines that amplify its intensity and rocket the beam along using specially grown crystals and thousands of lenses and mirrors, and finally focuses these beams down to hit a target that is the size of a peppercorn—all in one millionth of a second.

But other scientists warn me that this is all just a high-tech fantasy. They say Moses is full of a certain kind of non-nuclear fuel, and that I should not believe anything he and his colleagues tell me. "They're snake-oil salesmen," says Thomas Cochran, senior scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council, which has tracked the NIF project from its inception in 1997. Cochran says the NIF laser is still not powerful enough. Even if it were, he says, "these machines are just going to be too big, and too costly, and they'll never be competitive." Other critics, like Stephen Bodner, a Ph.D. physicist who was director of laser-fusion research at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., until his retirement in 1999, say Moses's team has downplayed such technical problems as its inability to focus NIF's laser on a tiny target.

Moses says NIF has already demonstrated the ability to focus onto the target. He's aware of the skepticism but says he's confident that his team, which consists of 500 scientists and engineers, will succeed. His boss, George Miller, the director of Lawrence Livermore, holds a doctorate in physics and is well aware of the difficulties Moses must overcome. "Nothing is a sure game until you've actually done it," he says. But he makes the case for trying. "You have to build NIF to find out whether or not this is going to work."

He's got a point. Big technological breakthroughs require taking big risks. They always seem hopeless and expensive—until they work. Sequencing the human genome seemed impossible until thousands of researchers around the world got it done—in 13 years, with $3 billion in government funding, plus investments by private companies. Like the genome project, fusion energy is something that requires a long-term sustained effort. This isn't like creating the next version of the iPod, or a new application for Facebook. These are scientists operating at the very edge of our knowledge about how to manipulate tiny particles of matter.

If fusion works, it's the ultimate green energy source. But NIF has other goals, one being to help scientists gain greater understanding of the universe itself; for example, they will be able to study conditions that exist inside stars.

Given all that, even if NIF fails—if the whole place turns out to have been a $3.5 billion fiasco—it seems to me that the risk will have been worth taking. The NIF team still will have made lots of smaller breakthroughs in laser design, optics, and materials science. They will have advanced the state of laser science. Then they will go looking for money to build an even bigger laser so they can try again.

And if Moses is right, and NIF succeeds, well, the scientists at NIF will go down in history. That is why labs in Japan, France, the U.K., and China are all pursuing fusion energy too. For his part, Moses really seems not to harbor any doubt. Yes, there are lots of big technical challenges; but one by one, his team is ticking them down, he says. "If someone offered me the job to build a commercial prototype fusion plant and they said, 'You've only got 10 years,' I'd take that job," Moses says. He and a colleague have already branded the product they're building—they call it Laser Inertial Fusion Energy, or LIFE, a name that at least indicates that some scientists also know a bit about marketing. Moses believes that by 2020 utility companies could be building prototype power plants called "LIFE engines." By 2030, he says, real fusion plants could be up and running, and by 2050 they could be common. By 2100, as many as 1,000 fusion reactors could be operating in the United States, if utilities embrace the technology and invest in it.

If Moses is right, this may be the biggest technological breakthrough of the century. LIFE would produce energy with no carbon emissions, from a fuel that is cheap and abundant. One comparison fusion proponents like to use is that 10 gallons of water could produce as much energy as a supertanker of oil. We're talking about a solution to global warming, less dependence on foreign oil, and no more need to enrich uranium for nuclear fission—hence no uranium that could be further enriched to make nuclear weapons.

Fusion would be a disruptive technology like the Internet, touching every part of the economy. If the United States can be the first to commercialize fusion, we'll rule the market for green energy and create jobs for half a century as we build and sell power plants to the rest of the world. If someone else gets there first, we'll be buying our power plants from them. Fusion energy represents a potential solution to a looming crisis. The world's population is growing by about 100 million people each year. China and India now use much less energy per capita than we do, but as developing nations industrialize, demand for electricity will skyrocket. Add to that the likelihood that transportation will increasingly be powered by electricity, and we're faced with an insatiable demand. By 2030, global electricity generation will grow nearly 80 percent from 2006 levels, according to the World Resources Institute.

Power companies are already making the pilgrimage to Lawrence Livermore. "Utilities are looking at the future, and they do not have a story for how they're going to make carbon-free energy. Right now, renewables are difficult and expensive," Moses says. The good news is that in March of this year, when Moses and his team fired up the giant laser, they were able to produce more energy than anyone ever had before—just over a megajoule, which, Moses says, "was like breaking the four-minute mile." NIF fires the laser only a few times a day, and scientists are blasting capsules that contain just a tiny bit of deuterium and no tritium. The idea is to test the system and bring it up slowly. Moses says it's like getting behind a Ferrari for the first time; you go easy at first. In a few months NIF will move to a more potent fuel capsule that contains tritium and just a tiny bit of deuterium. By the fall of 2010 the team aims to start blasting capsules that contain the full dose of -deuterium-tritium fuel, and they will crank up the laser power to 1.4 megajoules.

If all goes well, by 2012 NIF will produce what Moses calls "a repeatable, re-liable platform." That means it will have worked out a system that utilities could use to start building prototype fusion re-actors. Moses distributes literature with ambitious timelines and even an artist's rendition of a commercial LIFE-engine power plant that looks as if it came from The Jetsons. As for the people who say NIF is a fiasco that will never work no matter how many billions of dollars are spent on it, Moses shrugs and says, "People live in a state of arrested development. They get stuck in one place. They say this can't be done because we couldn't do it in the 1960s. It's like saying we can't have cell phones because we couldn't do cell phones in the 1960s."

Of course, making fusion energy work will be a tad more difficult than making a cell phone. But if Moses and his team succeed, their creation will benefit virtually everyone on the planet. Even if NIF fails, that's a goal worth pursuing.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Mockup of the gold-plated hohlraum designed for the NIF.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:31 AM

1 Attachment(s)
NIF's fuel "target", filled with either D-T gas or D-T ice. The capsule is held in the hohlraum using thin plastic webbing.

blaise 01-08-2010 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423294)
NIF's fuel "target", filled with either D-T gas or D-T ice. The capsule is held in the hohlraum using thin plastic webbing.

If you eat those you get superpowers.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:36 AM

So, chances are that we'll know this year. Keep your fingers crossed.

ziggysocki 01-08-2010 11:37 AM

They should quit wasting time on this and build me a fembot and a holodeck. Seriously though, fusion should be the goal of all next-gen scientists. But wtf do I know, I am no physicist.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:37 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Target chamber

Cannibal 01-08-2010 11:40 AM

This is another pesky government program. No good can come from it. All funding should be pulled immediately and the facility should be permanently closed.

jidar 01-08-2010 11:40 AM

another Fusion group. I'll cross my fingers but not hold my breath.

Baby Lee 01-08-2010 11:41 AM

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Halfway decent video explanation on the home page.

A little more exposition

https://lasers.llnl.gov/multimedia/v..._nif_works.php

ziggysocki 01-08-2010 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423321)
Target chamber

It looks like the Deathstar.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:43 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by ziggysocki (Post 6423337)
It looks like the Deathstar.

Not a bad analogy, really.

Donger 01-08-2010 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannibal (Post 6423333)
This is another pesky government program. No good can come from it. All funding should be pulled immediately and the facility should be permanently closed.

fuck off.

Cannibal 01-08-2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423343)
fuck off.

ROFLROFLROFL I've never seen Donger lose his cool like that. Godamn I really laughed out loud.

tyton75 01-08-2010 11:47 AM

Thats a TON of money to throw into something that may or may not work

hope it works.. that'd be cool till it gets out of hand and Doc Ock isn't around and Spiderman is busy hangin upside down kissing an alligator

Pants 01-08-2010 11:57 AM

Holy shit.

Sounds like this might finally be achievable. That is so insane, I didn't think it would happen in my lifetime.

rambleonthruthefog 01-08-2010 11:59 AM

all we really need is some unobtainium.

Mr. Laz 01-08-2010 12:01 PM

http://blogs.amctv.com/scifi-scanner...GE_EC012_H.jpg

tyton75 01-08-2010 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambleonthruthefog (Post 6423392)
all we really need is some unobtainium.

that was the dumbest name for a fake substance ever! lol

TigerPig 01-08-2010 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423286)
Mockup of the gold-plated hohlraum designed for the NIF.

I don't know you, but I like anyone who has Oppenheimer as their avatar and posts this stuff.

This made me wonder an entirely strange question and that is whether or not nitrogen has a flash point at any temperature. Would it be possible to catch the atmosphere on fire with the right fuel to air mix and the right amount of heat?

Dartgod 01-08-2010 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423259)
By the fall of 2010 the team aims to start blasting capsules that contain the full dose of -deuterium-tritium fuel, and they will crank up the laser power to 1.4 megajoules.

1.4 megajoules! Great Scott!

http://www.mrgadget.com.au/catalog/i...mett_brown.jpg

TigerPig 01-08-2010 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423259)
Could This Lump Power the Planet?

...One lump, to power them all...

kaplin42 01-08-2010 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyton75 (Post 6423357)
Thats a TON of money to throw into something that may or may not work

hope it works.. that'd be cool till it gets out of hand and Doc Ock isn't around and Spiderman is busy hangin upside down kissing an alligator

What is money, but an artificial substance that society made up and applied value to.

If this actually works, do realize the ramifications that it would have world wide?

The middle east would be a non-issue. Green house effects would almost virtually disappear, and flying cars might actually be just around the corner.


Not to derail the subject, but flying cars. Can you imagine the nightmare that would be. it's tough enough driving down the road without encountering some sort of douchebaggery. When cars can fly, and idiots can drive them, we are all doomed.

TigerPig 01-08-2010 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaplin42 (Post 6423449)
What is money, but an artificial substance that society made up and applied value to.

If this actually works, do realize the ramifications that it would have world wide?

The middle east would be a non-issue. Green house effects would almost virtually disappear, and flying cars might actually be just around the corner.


Not to derail the subject, but flying cars. Can you imagine the nightmare that would be. it's tough enough driving down the road without encountering some sort of douchebaggery. When cars can fly, and idiots can drive them, we are all doomed.

You think the arab nations are pissed off at us now, wait until they have absolutely nothing of value to us and we shut them off...

Lots of "durka durka"

kaplin42 01-08-2010 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TigerPig (Post 6423491)
You think the arab nations are pissed off at us now, wait until they have absolutely nothing of value to us and we shut them off...

Lots of "durka durka"

I lol'd

Donger 01-08-2010 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TigerPig (Post 6423422)
I don't know you, but I like anyone who has Oppenheimer as their avatar and posts this stuff.

This made me wonder an entirely strange question and that is whether or not nitrogen has a flash point at any temperature. Would it be possible to catch the atmosphere on fire with the right fuel to air mix and the right amount of heat?

There was a bet given during the Trinity Test about that very thing.

TigerPig 01-08-2010 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger (Post 6423506)
There was a bet given during the Trinity Test about that very thing.

Only one way to find out!!!

ChiefaRoo 01-08-2010 12:25 PM

If they can get Fusion Power to work and be affordable the US will lead the world economically for the next 100 years. This would be like creating Microsoft, Google, Exxon,Yahoo and Apple while at the same time allowing us to get off many forms of Oil from the parts of the world who don't like us and allowing a shift away from Coal. It would be worth Trillions and Trillions of dollars over the next century.

My biggest question is how would they shut down the reaction so it wouldn't get out of control. I know they'll use magnetic fields but there has to be a way to keep the fusion process from getting away from them via an instant shut off.

Donger 01-08-2010 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TigerPig (Post 6423511)
Only one way to find out!!!

:spock:

TigerPig 01-08-2010 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefaRoo (Post 6423528)
My biggest question is how would they shut down the reaction so it wouldn't get out of control. I know they'll use magnetic fields but there has to be a way to keep the fusion process from getting away from them.

This is unimportant, and an aftersight.

Stinger 01-08-2010 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donger
Could This Lump Power the Planet?

I doubt it..... Draft Day here is hectic and usually one or two outages occur.

Lumpy 01-08-2010 12:30 PM

<----------- Couldn't power the planet. :(

Baby Lee 01-08-2010 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lumpy (Post 6423548)
<----------- Couldn't power the planet. :(

Don't underestimate your power.
Step one, issue the cadre of goatee'd assloads on this site with dynamos to connect to their fap hand.
Step two Lumpy pics.

tyton75 01-08-2010 12:39 PM

To the fly cars making a mess of everything... if we had true flying cars.. we could no longer be chained to population centers.. we could really spread out so not sure if it would be that much of an issue..

except for maybe in the NorthEast, but fug them.. who cares

kaplin42 01-08-2010 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyton75 (Post 6423599)
To the fly cars making a mess of everything... if we had true flying cars.. we could no longer be chained to population centers.. we could really spread out so not sure if it would be that much of an issue..

except for maybe in the NorthEast, but fug them.. who cares

There is some truth to this. And think of the definate advantage of flying cars when the zombie war breaks out.

I guess there are pluses and minuses to it.

T-post Tom 01-08-2010 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 6423572)
Don't underestimate your power.
Step one, issue the cadre of goatee'd assloads on this site with dynamos to connect to their fap hand.
Step two Lumpy pics.

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/46/Hand_Job.gif

OR

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p.../Cat_toast.jpg

bowener 01-08-2010 05:46 PM

Quote:

But other scientists warn me that this is all just a high-tech fantasy. They say Moses is full of a certain kind of non-nuclear fuel, and that I should not believe anything he and his colleagues tell me. "They're snake-oil salesmen," says Thomas Cochran, senior scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council, which has tracked the NIF project from its inception in 1997. Cochran says the NIF laser is still not powerful enough. Even if it were, he says, "these machines are just going to be too big, and too costly, and they'll never be competitive." Other critics, like Stephen Bodner, a Ph.D. physicist who was director of laser-fusion research at the Naval Research Laboratory in Washington, D.C., until his retirement in 1999, say Moses's team has downplayed such technical problems as its inability to focus NIF's laser on a tiny target.
I think this man is a little upset or jealous, whatever it is he is not thinking clearly. I fail to see where the machines upfront cost will ever be too expensive for (basically) an endless supply of cheap energy. It will make more energy than it uses to create the reaction, and depending on what the $ amount charged for electricity is, any investor should be able to make their money back hand over fist as this becomes the modern standard for energy.

AustinChief 01-08-2010 06:02 PM

Smart money is on the polywell fusion devices beating it to market.

They should know if the concept will work in the next year or two at latest... from there it would be 10 years (or less) until we could see power plants.

Plus these "wiffle balls" could be produced in tiny sizes (relatively)... a viable working model could be as small as 10-20 feet in diameter.

Baby Lee 01-08-2010 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannibal (Post 6423333)
This is another pesky government program. No good can come from it. All funding should be pulled immediately and the facility should be permanently closed.

Surely you are aware that there are strong calls to end this from the left and the right.

From a fiscally conservative side, the NIF has been shadily funded by Enronning the fee structure throughout Lawrence Livermore so that more conventional research in the facility pulls outrageous fees so NIF can reduce it's fees to slide in under it's allocated funding. Watchdogs have pinning the overspending at 2 billion over authorized on this project alone.

From the anti-war left side, NIF has been sold to Congress as a weapons, not energy [not until recently], development program. ie, they want fusion so that they can create nuclear weapons out of anything, not just weapon's grade plutonium as with fission. And there are tons of resolutions condemning them for violating non-proliferation treaties.

bevischief 01-08-2010 07:01 PM

Didn't we see this in Spider man 2...

Dave Lane 01-08-2010 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyton75 (Post 6423405)
that was the dumbest name for a fake substance ever! lol

I actually have 3-4 lbs of it. Its good stuff. But not good for deep encasing after being exposed to a reducing flame.

Baby Lee 01-08-2010 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tyton75 (Post 6423405)
that was the dumbest name for a fake substance ever! lol

Lest you think Cameron penned it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unobtainium

mikey23545 01-08-2010 07:31 PM

I was sure from the title this post would be about Mecca...

Cannibal 01-08-2010 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 6425096)
Surely you are aware that there are strong calls to end this from the left and the right.

From a fiscally conservative side, the NIF has been shadily funded by Enronning the fee structure throughout Lawrence Livermore so that more conventional research in the facility pulls outrageous fees so NIF can reduce it's fees to slide in under it's allocated funding. Watchdogs have pinning the overspending at 2 billion over authorized on this project alone.

From the anti-war left side, NIF has been sold to Congress as a weapons, not energy [not until recently], development program. ie, they want fusion so that they can create nuclear weapons out of anything, not just weapon's grade plutonium as with fission. And there are tons of resolutions condemning them for violating non-proliferation treaties.

I'm not arguing any of that BS. I'm stating that Right Wingers (the populace) hate government programs. This is one of them. I would think the Right Wingers would want this ended. Unless of course, they are hypocrites.

Baby Lee 01-09-2010 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannibal (Post 6425331)
I'm not arguing any of that BS. I'm stating that Right Wingers (the populace) hate government programs. This is one of them. I would think the Right Wingers would want this ended. Unless of course, they are hypocrites.

OIC, you're a simpleton. I'm so sorry.

Stewie 01-09-2010 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bowener (Post 6424915)
I think this man is a little upset or jealous, whatever it is he is not thinking clearly. I fail to see where the machines upfront cost will ever be too expensive for (basically) an endless supply of cheap energy. It will make more energy than it uses to create the reaction, and depending on what the $ amount charged for electricity is, any investor should be able to make their money back hand over fist as this becomes the modern standard for energy.

I thought Whitlock broke into the article to give his opinion and how nothing done for future good will ever work.

Gary 01-09-2010 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChiefaRoo (Post 6423528)
If they can get Fusion Power to work and be affordable the US will lead the world economically for the next 100 years. This would be like creating Microsoft, Google, Exxon,Yahoo and Apple while at the same time allowing us to get off many forms of Oil from the parts of the world who don't like us and allowing a shift away from Coal. It would be worth Trillions and Trillions of dollars over the next century.

My biggest question is how would they shut down the reaction so it wouldn't get out of control. I know they'll use magnetic fields but there has to be a way to keep the fusion process from getting away from them via an instant shut off.

Great...now the Bilderberg group will know about it and use it as another tool to rule the world.

Cannibal 01-09-2010 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 6425955)
OIC, you're a simpleton. I'm so sorry.

I like your takes on Howard Stern and the general entertainment world so much more. :D

Baby Lee 01-09-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannibal (Post 6426374)
I like your takes on Howard Stern and the general entertainment world so much more. :D

What in the world do you expect when you come in with 'obtuse generality about a political opponent' then I reply with specific critiques from both sides of the aisle, THEN you reply 'Ah doan care 'bout pacifics, I like mah obtoos genuhalittty'

Maybe it'd be better if I let you keep your take, and counter with 'meddlesome libs probably hate this because they hate cheap plentiful energy because it robs them of the opportunity to micromanage our lives for 'the greater good.'' And we can just keep shouting past each other.

deadbabyseal 01-09-2010 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinChief (Post 6424988)
Smart money is on the polywell fusion devices beating it to market.

They should know if the concept will work in the next year or two at latest... from there it would be 10 years (or less) until we could see power plants.

Plus these "wiffle balls" could be produced in tiny sizes (relatively)... a viable working model could be as small as 10-20 feet in diameter.

Bussard rocks!

Cannibal 01-09-2010 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 6426433)
What in the world do you expect when you come in with 'obtuse generality about a political opponent' then I reply with specific critiques from both sides of the aisle, THEN you reply 'Ah doan care 'bout pacifics, I like mah obtoos genuhalittty'

Maybe it'd be better if I let you keep your take, and counter with 'meddlesome libs probably hate this because they hate cheap plentiful energy because it robs them of the opportunity to micromanage our lives for 'the greater good.'' And we can just keep shouting past each other.

There's some truth to what I said. But I do agree with you that I was generalizing. You weren't supposed to call me on it! :) I did do it to get Donger's goat and it worked like a charm if you saw his response.

Baby Lee 01-09-2010 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cannibal (Post 6426506)
There's some truth to what I said. But I do agree with you that I was generalizing. You weren't supposed to call me on it! :) I did do it to get Donger's goat and it worked like a charm if you saw his response.

Not speaking for all RWers, but I support government programs that tackle;

1) defense
2) infrastructure
3) technology and understanding of our physical world.

What I oppose is programs that try to manipulate the economy and human interaction [beyond the three angles above]. And I oppose them, not because I don't want the government to try to help people, but because I recognize in human nature that, for every attempt to help, there is a reaction to game the system to our own greatest satisfaction.

So we're stuck between, a free market with those good at capitalism getting rich and those who aren't languishing in poverty, or a progressive government with those good at cozying up to government getting rich and those who aren't languishing at entitlement/subsistance level. And in the second instance, those ill-gotten gains are taken from us with our permission and acquiesence, and entitlement/subsistence existence paralyzises us from action and achievement.

Cannibal 01-09-2010 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Lee (Post 6427887)
Not speaking for all RWers, but I support government programs that tackle;

1) defense
2) infrastructure
3) technology and understanding of our physical world.

What I oppose is programs that try to manipulate the economy and human interaction [beyond the three angles above]. And I oppose them, not because I don't want the government to try to help people, but because I recognize in human nature that, for every attempt to help, there is a reaction to game the system to our own greatest satisfaction.

So we're stuck between, a free market with those good at capitalism getting rich and those who aren't languishing in poverty, or a progressive government with those good at cozying up to government getting rich and those who aren't languishing at entitlement/subsistance level. And in the second instance, those ill-gotten gains are taken from us with our permission and acquiesence, and entitlement/subsistence existence paralyzises us from action and achievement.

Good post. I lean further left than that as you know. I support government provided safety nets in some areas and I feel they are important to countries who are not part of the 3rd world. I also believe that our defense spending needs to be scaled way back. We already outspend the rest of the entire planet combined by a long shot. Of course we won't change each other's mind though, so I think where we may have common ground might be on social issues, just based on what I've read of your posts. I could be wrong about that though.

Cannibal 01-09-2010 06:07 PM

I'd also like to point out that I fully support the government program talked about in the original post... to get back to the point anyway.

googlegoogle 01-09-2010 06:10 PM

it wont. it is a waste of money.

laser fusion sucks and is a fraud.

money should be going to the plasma reactor.

TigerPig 01-10-2010 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by googlegoogle (Post 6428099)
money should be going to the plasma reactor.

Or the arc reactor...

Icon 01-10-2010 08:56 AM

It sounds like it takes quite a bit of energy to create the fusion reaction. What would be the approximate energy gain if successful? Are we talking 2 to 1, 10 to 1, 1,000 to 1, etc.?

HonestChieffan 01-10-2010 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary (Post 6426010)
Great...now the Bilderberg group will know about it and use it as another tool to rule the world.

They noted your comment.


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