GBN Report: 2010 SENIOR BOWL GAME REVIEW
 

That’s a wrap… Another Senior Bowl is in the books after last week's game capped off activities in Mobile. And while most NFL teams place far more value on what the players do in practice than in the game itself, we still like to watch what the guys can and can‘t do in an actual game setting. That said, there is a lot to be gleaned from watching the guys actually play the game and there is no question there were some real winners and losers in Saturday's 2010 game, although for the most part they appeared to be pretty much the same players who did well in practice.

Top 10 best players overall during the 2010 Senior Bowl game…

1. Michigan DE Brandon Graham
2. Georgia DT Geno Atkins
3. Penn State DT Jared Odrick
4. Missouri LB Sean Weatherspoon
5. North Carolina DE Cam Thomas
6. Utah LB Koa Misi
7. Tennessee DT Dan Williams
8. Florida State CB Patrick Robinson
9. Maryland DB Terrelle Skinner
10. Cincinnati WR Mardy Gilyard

Hononrable mentions: UMass OT Vlad Ducasse, Auburn RB Ben Tate, Oregon RB LeGarrette Blount, Alabama TE Colin Peek, Central Michigan QB Dan LeFevour, Vanderbilt OT Thomas Welch, California DE Tyson Aluala, TCU LB Daryl Washington

Defensive line dominates … As they say early in baseball training camp that the pitchers are always way ahead of the hitters (or is it the other way around) the defense generally has a bit of a natural edge in college football all-star games. And that was certainly the case, at least as far the line play went, at this year’s Senior Bowl game where the defensive lines pretty much overwhelmed their counterparts on offense. Michigan DE Brandon Graham, who shined in one-on-one pass rush drills during practice all week, was simply the best player on the field. Again as he did during the week, Graham exploded off the snap, got great leverage as he kept his pads low, used his hands effectively to disengage and showed some nice spin moves as well as a non-stop motor. For good measure, Graham, who had two sacks, a forced fumble and another tackle for loss, also did a solid job defending the run as he was just too quick for the South’s cadre of LTs. On occasion, though, Graham just stood up after the snap and didn’t get any real penetration, while he will also overrun the odd play in his enthusiasm to get to the pocket, but otherwise did nothing to tarnish his overall pass-rush credentials which got a huge boost last week in Mobile.

There was a similar story last Saturday for Penn State DT Jared Odrick who continued to show outstanding interior pass-rush potential in Satuday‘s game. Odrick displayed a very quick first step off the snap as well as an excellent swim move. And while he’s a little rangy for a prototype run-stuffing DT, the 6-5, 300-pound Odrick did a nice job taking on and splitting double teams. For good measure, like his former Big 10 opponent Graham, Odrick also showed a great motor and lateral range as he pursued the ball to the whistle; Odrick, who may have earned some consideration as a 3-4 DE with his play in Mobile, showed good timing get his long arms up into the passing lanes when he didn‘t get to the QB. Georgia DT Geno Atkins also proved to be too quick for the North’s interior offensive line in the Senior Bowl. In particular, Atkins gave star North OG Mike Iupati with an explosive first step along with the functional strength to maintain leverage once he got position and headed up field.

Meanwhile, Tennessee DT Dan Williams didn’t get that much actual up field penetration himself, but proved almost impossible for the North offensive front to get off the point of attack. Williams consistently beat the OL off the snap, showed good balance and short-area lateral range, as well as the strength to hold his spot when double teamed. It was also a good day for North Carolina DT Cam Thomas who didn’t show much in the way of sophisticated pass-rush moves or lateral quickness, but was able to bull-rush his way deep into the pocket on just about every play as he physically overwhelmed the South OGs. And like Penn State’s Odrick, the 6-4, 330-pound Thomas, who heretofore had been thought of as a pure NT, may start to get some serious consideration as a potential 3-4 DE, as well as a more traditional 4-3 DT.

At the same time, DTs Lamarr Houston of Texas and Mike Neal of Purdue also made big plays in the backfield in Saturday’s game, however, other than the occasional both tended to get stuck on the line of scrimmage although it didn’t appear to be from a lack of effort. Indeed, both worked very hard to the whistle, but Neal in particular looked to lack the strength of get off blocks. Same story for Louisiana Tech DT Boo Smith who was a non-factor Saturday in Mobile after a very disappointing week of practice. Then there was Alabama DT Terrence Cody, one of the biggest, both literally and figuratively, stories in Mobile last week. No question Cody was almost impossible to dislodge off the line of scrimmage in Saturday’s game, however, he really didn’t show much in the way of balance or outright strength at the point of attack and ended up being bounced around enough that he seldom was available to find the ball or make a play.

Graham’s efforts aside, the Senior Bowl DEs weren’t quite as impressive as their DT counterparts. As he had all week, Cal combo DE/DT Tyson Alualu showed plenty of energy and a non-stop motor and did get some decent leverage on occasion, but also got hung up too often especially when going one-on-one against a TE. Meanwhile, Alex Carrington of Arkansas was able to use his strength and a very effective punch to get some penetration, but didn’t show much in the way of outside explosion or closing speed. Same story for rangy Austen Lane of Murray State, who scored a TD on a recovered fumble, but for the most part appeared to lack both the quick-twitch explosion to get to the edge as well as the upper-body strength to be effective bull-rushing. Meanwhile, Troy tweener Cam Sheffield showed some initial quickness on one play where he forced a fumble on a sack, but for the most part got hung up at the line of scrimmage doing too much head-faking and hand fighting. Sheffield’s Troy teammate Brandon Lang also had a quiet afternoon as he looked a step slow to get to the edge, while USF’s George Selvie was a non-factor.

Linebackers: Normally, all-star formats make it tough for LBs to really stand out but someone forgot to tell this year’s group. Missouri MLB Sean Weatherspoon, for example, had an outstanding day Saturday as he made plays all over the field. Weatherspoon was very light on his feet, did a nice job avoiding the trash and flowing to the ball, and showed good instincts and range. What really had to impress pro scouts, though, were a couple of plays in coverage in which he first stayed with speedy Ole Miss RB, and sometime WR, Dexter McCluster well down field and then turned just in time to braek up a pass in the end zone. Later, Weatherspoon read the QB’s eyes and stepped in front of another pass for a pick to put an exclamation point on the day.

TCU MLB Daryl Washington also impressed with his range and quickness to the ball, although a couple of times he was a little overaggressive going for the big hit and didn’t really wrap. As well, Washington who isn’t very big at under 230 pounds, didn’t really take on blockers at the point of attack, but tended to try and run around them instead. Utah OLB Koa Misi also showed excellent speed, quickness and range in the Senior Bowl. For good measure, Misi also delivered a couple of solid pops, one of which forced a fumble. And like both Weatherspoon, Misi impressed with his ability to slide off blocks and flow t the ball. On the other hand, A.J. Edds wasn’t quite as aggressive defending the run, but showed nice range and flexibility dropping into coverage and was rewarded with a late pick of his own.

And with speed at LB a theme in Mobile, Florida State LB Dekoda Watson also showed plenty of range, good instincts and some big-play ability in the backfield. However, while Watson ran well and covered a lot of ground he wasn’t very physical when taking on blockers and was at his most effective when allowed to run and make plays in space. Miami MLB Darryl Sharpton also covered a lot of ground in the Senior Bowl game and was very aggressive, although he tended to arrive at the play a step or so late; Sharpton also struggled at times getting off blocks and overran a couple of plays, although he also delivered a couple of big hits along the way. For his part, Mississippi State MLB Jamar Chaney was around the ball a lot; indeed he led the Senior Bowl in tackles, however, most of them were too far downfield as he tended to tackle to high and got dragged for extra yardage. Meanwhile, the one LB that really struggled in Mobile was converted South Carolina DE Eric Norwood who couldn’t get off blocks and didn’t show much in the way of instincts for the ball.

Defensive backs: Because there wasn’t a lot of downfield passing by either team, the corners weren’t really tested during the Senior Bowl game. The one CB who was challenged to some degree, though, was Patrick Robinson of Florida State and for the most part he passed the test. Robinson was able to turn and run stride-for-stride with the receiver on a couple of deep routes and almost had a pick when broke crisply on a short pass, although he also conceded some cushion when working in a zone. And while not the most physical tackler, Robinson did get off the ground to make a tackle on a reverse.

No other corner was tested enough to grade, however, each of Perrish Cox of Oklahoma State, Kyle Wilson of Boise State and Rutgers’ Devin McCourty made solid wrap-up open-field tackles. McCourty also provided nice coverage on a deep route over the middle, but didn’t make a very aggressive play on the ball. At the same time, Kentucky CB Trevard Lindley struggled at times; he gave up too much cushion and was unable to find the ball on one of Cincinnati WR Mardy Gilyard’s long gainers when he otherwise was in pretty good position. Lindley also wasn’t very physical forcing the run. Meanwhile, Alabama CB Javier Arenas was also beaten deep when Gilyard just ran by him, although he also broke nicely on an underneath route and also showed an explosive first step that set up a long punt return. USF CB Jerome Murphy was also soft in coverage and was driven 10 yards downfield when he tried to come up in run support.

Southern Cal safety Taylor Mays had to feel a little redemption after picking off a pass in the Senior Bowl, although to be honest the pass was very, very late coming over the middle. The knock on Mays coming into Mobile, of course, had been that while he looked the part, he really hadn’t made many plays on the ball while at USC. In the end, at least for the moment, Mays appeared to stop the bleeding to his rep with a solid game as he also showed some aggression coming up in run support, but did overrun one tackle when he went for the big hit rather than wrap-up. Meanwhile, Nebraska safety Larry Asante did unload on one tackle that forced a fumble, but got caught playing too deep on a South TD pass over the middle late in the first half. Same story for Florida State’s Myron Rolle who looked rusty in the game after spending the past year studying on a Rhodes Scholarship in England. Rolle appeared to be a step late on most plays and like Asante, was slow to react on a TD pass to a TE over the middle.

The safety who may have helped himself the most at the Senior Bowl game was Maryland’s Terrelle Skinner who made a number of stinging tackles, although he was never really tested in coverage. Meanwhile, Ohio State’s Kurt Coleman was around the ball all day, whereas LSU’s Harry Coleman really wasn’t.

Offense:

Quarterbacks: Truth be told, the performances of the QBs at this year’s senior Bowl was kind of a wash. On the one hand, none of the passers in Mobile likely lost any ground, but at the same time, none of the six did much of anything to raise their grade. In fact, all six came into the senior Bowl with issues, none of which were really answered in Mobile. Jarrett Brown of West Virginia, for example, impressed with his size, arm strength and mobility; indeed, Brown was able to get the ball downfield with a quick wrist flick. Brown, though, was also rather erratic in the pocket as he didn’t appear to always read the field and was occasionally wildly inaccurate. Cincinnati’s Tony Pike also showed a major league arm as well as somewhat surprising mobility. However, just about every pass Pike threw was almost all arm as he tended to lob passes downfield rather than stepping into them and putting some real zip into his delivery. Meanwhile, Zac Robinson of Oklahoma State also has some moments, particularly when he rallied the south team late in the first half. Robinson also showed good arm strength when he had time to plant, as well as the mobility to slide around the pocket to find passing lanes as he‘s under 6-3 and has something of a low release point. Robinson, though, couldn’t get much on his passes when he didn’t have to room to step up and really didn’t do a good job protecting the football as he put it on the ground twice.

And Saturday’s actual game did almost nothing to answer any of the myriad of questions about the ultimate pro potential of Florida QB Tim Tebow. Tebow, the most celebrated prospect at the Senior Bowl in a long, long time, was efficient enough completing 8 of 12 passes, and certainly has the arm strength to all the throws required of an NFL QB given the time and space to load up, although his delivery was still painfully deliberate. Tebow, though, just didn’t appear to very quick at all; indeed, even when running he appeared to lack the quick-twitch elusiveness to make people miss in the open field. At the same time, he just didn’t have the time to get any mustard on the ball at all when pressured in the pocket and ended up lobbing out several very ugly ducks that almost certainly would have been returned for pick-6s at the next level.

If any QB did help their draft grade in Saturday’s game it may have been Dan LeFevour of Central Michigan who connected on the game’s only real big gainers, although one did require a nice adjustment on a slightly underthrown ball by the receiver. LeFevour, though, did show nice touch and accuracy, as well as the mobility to run out of trouble and make plays with his legs. Whether LeFevour has the legitimate arm strength to make all the throws, though, remains open to debate.

Running backs: As has been noted several time, all-star games are lousy tests for RBs as they really don’t enough touches to get into any kind of rhythm. Several backs in Mobile, though, had pretty good games including Auburn’s Ben Tate who showed nice patience, vision and balance, as well as a good burst and some power in the hole. Oregon’s LeGarrette Blount also looked all the part of a powerful downhill runner who just didn’t go down without a struggle. Blount also showed the ability to make some nifty first cuts, but wan’t all that effective when his pads weren’t square to the line of scrimmage. And while he didn’t bust any huge plays, Ole Miss RB/WR/KR Dexter McCluster was able to give NFL teams a glimpse of his big-play slash potential with good vision, an explosive first step and that extra gear.

Meanwhile, Lonyae Miller of Fresno State also made a couple of nice cuts as well as some explosion once he found a crease. Miller, though, appeared to have a somewhat skinny lower body and WR-thin legs; plus he put the ball on the ground. Wayne State’s Joique Bell also made some decent reads and cuts, but still looks more like a pure north-south runner who got caught trying to outrun the pursuit to the sideline a couple of times. And like Miller, Bell fumbled the ball away.

In one sense, nobody had a better Senior Bowl that Southern Cal RB Stafon Johnson who made a quite remarkable appearance in Mobile after suffering a scary, life-threatening injury while weight-lifting earlier in the season. Johnson, though, looked a tad rusty in the actual game and was just a half step slow in getting into and out of the hole.

Receivers: After struggling much of the week during practice, Cincinnati WR Mardy Gilyard had a break-out day of sorts on Saturday when he hauled in 5 passes for over 100 yards including a 43-yard TD reception and another 33-yarder that set up another score. In particular, Gilyard caught the ball well in traffic and made a nice adjustment on the fly to make one of those big catches, but never really got a whole lot of separation at any time during the game. Jeremy Williams of Tulane also had a productive afternoon snagging 6 receptions that included one big gainer on which he went high in the air to take it away from a closing defender. Williams also showed good hands and the ability to find some soft spots underneath.

For the most part, this year’s Senior Bowl wide receivers didn’t show all that much to get excited about on Saturday. The Citadel’s Andre Roberts, for example, showed good hands and concentration as he made one nice catch in traffic over the middle, but dropped another easy one; same for Riley Cooper of Florida, while Clemson speedster Jacoby Jones broke off a big punt return, but otherwise was limited to one short reception. That was pretty much it, though, in terms of impact plays from this year’s set of wideouts in Mobile.

In fact, a pretty good case can be made that this year’s Senior Bowl WRs were outplayed by their TE counterparts. Alabama’s Colin Peek and Graham Garrett of Wisconsin, for example, both hauled in TD passes after getting deep into the seam, although the latter was called back because of a penalty, while Oregon‘s Ed Dickson was able to slip behind coverage to snare a 31-yard reception. The Tide‘s Peek also put on a bit of a TE-blocking clinic as he showed nice, balance, footwork and arm extension. Meanwhile, USC’s Anthony McCoy wasn’t as refined as Peek but was also very effective blocking as he held his own almost all afternoon against North team DEs. Oregon’s Dickson, on the other hand, didn’t look very aggressive, physical or for that matter enthusiastic while blocking.

Offensive line: They call them the ’big uglies’ and that was pretty descriptive in Mobile on Saturday, as it was all week, as the Senior Bowl offensive linemen were consistently dominated by their defensive counterparts. Even big Idaho OG Mike Iupati, the one constant up front during practice this week, really struggled. Indeed, Iupati gave up a sack, as well as another tackle for loss; he was also called for one hold and could just as easily have been flagged for a half dozen others. The raw skill was apparent with Iupati when he kept his feet moving and his head, however, for whatever reason Iupati did a lot of lunging at the defensive linemen in front of him, even when it appeared he should be in a pass-block backpeddle; plus he really wasn’t taking advantage of his 35-inch reach and was also planting way too early with the result that he was often flatfooted or off-balance and had to grab some jersey to hold off his man.

On the other hand, nobody was getting around UMass OT Vlad Ducasse, who with his wide girth and long arms, was one of those proverbial $10 cab fares to get around. Ducasse also stopped more than one South DE in his tracks with a devastating punch. He was able to really lock on when drive blocking. At the same time, though, Ducasse didn’t show much at all in the way of lateral mobility and didn’t change direction at all smoothly.

Other than Ducasse, though, the OTs in Mobile - and that includes LSU’s Ciron Black, Selvish Capers of West Virginia, Tennessee’s Chris Scott, Ed Wang of Virginia Tech and Sam Young of Notre Dame - looked stiff, mechanical and not very fluid or athletic at all. At least, LSU’s Black battled most of the afternoon and showed some strength as well as some short-area quickness, but otherwise these guys really struggled both to flow laterally and to hold up physically when bull-rushed. Indeed, the one OT in the Senior Bowl game who didn’t look all that bad, other than Ducasse, was unheralded Thomas Welch of Vanderbilt, a late addition to the week, who wasn’t all that physical, but did appear technically sound with decent feet.

There was a similar story among the interior offensive linemen, none of whom really stood out on a consistent basis. OGs John Jerry of Ole Miss and Mitch Petrus of Arkansas, though, at least held up reasonably well. Jerry, for example, is another true wide-body who seemed to get some pretty good knee-bend, although he wasn’t very nimble laterally. Petrus, on the other hand, was rather fluid moving around the pocket and showed a solid base and decent functional strength at the point of attack, although he did lose focus on a couple of occasions and gave up too much penetration. OG Mike Johnson of Alabama also showed good mobility moving about the pocket and also made a couple of blocks on the move, but really struggled to held up when bull-rushed. Indeed, North Carolina DT Cam Thomas literally picked Johnson up on one play and dumped in the QB’s lap. In fact, that was the problem for just about all this year’s OGs and Cs is that they just weren’t able to match the strength of the guys on the other side of the ball.

The bit about Cam Thomas intrigues me. Though, I have not watched him play nor can I find any sort of footage at all related to him.

i worry that Graham's performance at the Senior Bowl might be a little misleading. Not that Graham isn't good, but alot of the damage he did was against Ciron Black who is too slow to play LT in the NFL. He will have to move to RT or maybe even inside to Guard.

Graham had just under 30 sacks in 3 seasons, and tallied 45 or 46 tackles for loss over the last two (was 2nd in the nation in 2008 and led the nation last year).

I don't think he was playing Ciron Black every week.

i'm well aware of graham's stats. thanks. i was referring to senior bowl week report which is what this thread is about.

Graham made Ciron Black and Selvish Capers look bad but he is not a one game wonder.

Brandom Graham at Michigan - first defensive player in school history to be voted Bo Schembechler Most Valuable Player twice (2008, 2009) ... shared 2009 Chicago Tribune Silver Football as Big Ten's MVP with Penn State quarterback Daryll Clark ... 2009 All-Big Ten first team (coaches and media) ... 2008 All-Big Ten second team (coaches and media) ... posted 138 tackles, 56 tackles for loss, 29.5 sacks, three fumble recoveries and three pass breakups ... second in career TFLs and sacks at Michigan ... tied for second at U-M in career forced fumbles (six) ... two-year starter at defensive end ... four-year letterman ... played in 47 career games and made 28 starts at defensive end ... 40.6 percent of his stops came behind the line of scrimmage.

Brandom Graham was also doing this all week at the Senior Bowl practice against the North's offensive line. Vladimir Ducasse, Zane Beadles, and Mike Iupati were all getting beat by Graham.

That's typical of the Senior Bowl though. Every year the defensive ends and 4-3 tackles have the best showing and the offensive line guys the worst.

However, Graham is a stud. I don't know if he gives you anything over Hali at this point though. I don't think that he's versatile enough to play upright on the left side of the formation so by picking him you are saying that he's Hali's immediate replacement. They'd do better by getting a guy like Kindle or Misi who can play either side effectively and not get hung up in pass coverage.

I'm not saying that the Chiefs should draft Brandon Graham, only that he is and has been a very good player and not just a product of a Senior Bowl showing.

So you were being a ****ing moron in other words.

Thanks.

Graham is basically Lamar Woodley, that's his comparison for what he is at the next level.

I've always seen him as kind of like Tamba Hali.

Graham v. Bulaga , two potential top 20 draft picks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jv3RuI01Rg

Graham looked like Jared Allen in those highlights

no ... just that you should learn to ****ing read.

i dunno

i've always consider Allen more of a "lean" rusher who has enough power to maintain forward momentum through the lean.

Graham looks more like freeney imo ... a quick guy who's on the short side who can actually use his shorter build to leverage around guys.

Graham plays like a slower DT. Great shoulder dip and balance.

build yes, but with his natural ability and his technique which is the key part to my Jared Allen comparison

EXACTLY.

I would love to see us trade WAY down and pick up Graham (not at all likely) or possibly trade slightly down and use the extra picks to trade our 2a up to a late 1st and get him...

Hard to justify taking him at #5 and unlikely to slip out of the 1st round.

Draft Dope from Pigskin Paul

I have not been as profuse in my praise of BRANDON GRAHAM/DE/MICHIGAN as many have been after watching him in Mobile last week. I see GRAHAM as a very high-energy player with some pass-rush ability. But I think he is limited and and will be facing a move to OLB in the NFL. He does not remind me of DWIGHT FREENEY. He is more like ELVIS DUMERVIL of the BRONCOS. I only saw GRAHAM using an upfield, outside push move in pass rushing during the game last Saturday. He looked a lot like KGB in his last couple of years in Green Bay... a 1-trick pony. Another factor working against GRAHAM as a down pass-rusher are his short arms, which measured only 30 1/2”. DUMERVIL’s arms were almost 34” long when measured during Senior Bowl Week some years ago.


GRAHAM is a nice player who will be effective in the NFL as an OLB in a 3-4 scheme, ala former teammate LAMARR WOODLEY. In fact he mentioned WOODLEY during a Press Conference in Mobile, saying he taught him everything he knew about the pass-rush before leaving Michigan. But I think rankings I have seen this week with some “experts” placing him in the late First Round are misguided. Mid-to-late Round 2 is more like it for this hard working, athletic guy.


http://www.pigskinpaul.com/Pigskin_P...RAFT_DOPE.html

Read info below from that same report...If the Redskins go offensive tackle with the 1st pick that means Clausen or Bradford or both will be available. Also one less offensive tackle to pick from.

So this guy admits that he is another Lamarr Woodley... yet projects him in the 2nd round... Would ANYONE here NOT trade a mid to late 1st round pick for PRO BOWLER Woodley? IF he slips to our 2a and we DON'T pick him.. I will be furious.

Woodley went in the late 2nd round, this is actually a better draft than Woodley's was so it makes sense....

I think his highest possible landing place is Green Bay with their first rounder.

NT's sound intriguing.

Woodley went late 2nd because he was an unknown commodity... great production but lacking size... Graham is Woodley part 2... but we KNOW what he brings to the table...(Woodley part 2)

Mecca... can you honestly say you wouldn't take Woodley (knowing what you know about him now) with a 15-25 pick?

Graham is an inch shorter but otherwise he is damn near the same player.

What would he give us over Tamba at this point?

My point being that people around here are so insanely against picking up a OT early in the draft to shore up a position of need (either side, preferably both, I don't care), but it's okay to spend a pick like that on a guy that will provide no improvement, and maybe a little less (considering the amazing knack that Hali has in forcing fumbles), than what Tamba in capable of at the exact same position? I don't get it. Kindle I understand because he's long and athletic enough to play either of the OLB spots for three downs, but Graham, while a nice player, would be a bad pick seeing as we already have a more experienced version of him on the team.

Graham is a lot stonger(stronger overall I think) at the point of attack then Hali which makes him better against the run. Also with both players on the team maybe we could keep them both fresh so we could sack the QB to end the game for a win. (more than once a year) There will probably be situations where they both are on the field at the same time too. It'd really suck to have two good pass rushers on the field at the same time.


PhilFree:arrow:

I know what you mean. At least, I'd hate it. Also, I don't really know if Tamba could play the left side. I don't think he's ever been asked to do that. Not advocating taking Graham, but this Saccoshit is an idiot for completely discounting the idea.

Don't you get it? The reason nobody wants to take a LT with the 5th, is b/c there is absolutely no value to that type of pick. OT later? Sure. Doesn't mean I want to move Albert to accommodate him though. Maybe we could stay away from OT altogether and get a C or G? You really need to stop banging the OT drum. You're annoying. Nobody wants to argue with you about that shit anymore. The only reason they do is b/c you won't shut up about it. Can't wait for the draft to come, so we won't have to listen to your OT shit anymore.

Graham isn't a bad player, but I would rather get someone who can start at the OTHER OLB spot and just stick with Hali. Hali is essentially another DL just standing up, and having Graham would be like having 5 DL just with two standing up.

No value? For what many people believe to be the second most important position on the football field? How could you possibly even say this?

The last four years of the draft saw an offensive tackle go in the top five picks. And there is no value in it? Perhaps from your perspective, but it looks like NFL teams would argue vehemently against your theory.

2009: #2 - Jason Smith
2008: #1 - Jake Long
2007: #3 - Joe Thomas
2006: #4 - D'brickashaw Ferguson

All those teams needed a LT.

We need immediate upgrades at

c
rg
rb2
wr1
wr3
nb
nt
lolb
mlb
wlb
ss
fs

Bolded are positions that this draft offers very rare talents at that are worthy of such a high pick. If we decide that the elite talent that fits our needs at the top of the draft is worth passing on to upgrade LT, he better damn sure be better than Okung looks.

I wouldnt pick Okung at 10 or even 15, we simply have too many other desperate needs that we cant afford to give one position a mild upgrade if at all (which I dont think is an upgrade at all)

Argue vehemently? 20% of the top 5 picks have been offensive lineman. Big freaking deal.

What rebuttal do you have for not one lineman on either SB team was a first rounder.

I don't even know why you are wasting your time with Saca. It's obvious he hates Albert, that Albert will only get better and the only way this team can possibly improve is by adding Russell Okung to the offensive line and moving Albert to a position he's never played before.

ARE YOU ****ING SERIOUS? I love Tamba Hali.. but do you REALLY think he is anywhere near Woodley's range? If you do.. stop watching football and pick a new sport. Jesus Christ... don't be an idiot just to try to prove a point...

Graham is head and shoulders better than Hali and if you can't see that than we have nothing more to talk about.

HEY I am fine moving Albert back to LG with a genuine ELITE LT.. Okung isn't it (IMHO) but given Alberts improvement in the last 2 months of the season.. it is idiotic to wastea high pick on LT when we have MUCH higher needs that ARE PROVEN to be deficits. Albert at the VERY LEAST is a Pro Bowl POSSIBILITY... Last I checked no one at NT, S, or WR was...

Jammal Brown of the Saints was a first rounder, although he's been on IR this year.

No, that would have been Carl and Herm, when they drafted a college guard, a guy that had never played left tackle in his entire college career, and drafted him with a first round pick in hopes that he could play left tackle at the next level when he never played the position in college.

So, dipshit, it's not me that wants Albert to play a position he's never played before - it's you and people like you that have this deranged pipe dream of believing that he's going to be a "Pro Bowl Possibility" (jesus Austin, really?) at left tackle. I'd actually like him to play the position he's played for a lot longer than continuing to put him out at left tackle and watch him fail miserably.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about who the Chiefs pick because they could stand an upgrade every single position with the exception of Charles and Flowers.

I never said he was Woodley, nor did I ever compare him to Woodley. Jesus...take a lude.

Really? And how is that? Hali was a first team All-American coming out of college that had 11 sacks and 17 tackles for loss his senior year as a 6'3", 265 lbs. defensive end in a 4-3 format. Was Big 10 POY.

Brandon Graham was an Honorable Mention All-American with 9.5 sacks and 20 TFL as a 6'1", 265 lbs. defensive end in a 4-3 format. Was Runner Up Big 10 POY.

Hali, over the past four seasons, leads the NFL in forced fumbles.

Head and shoulders? I seriously doubt it, and with Graham's lack of height, there are going to be a lot of teams that will pass him over. He's more of a Dumervil than anything else and he doesn't have that insanely quick first step of Dumervil. He'll struggle against LT's at the next level and he doesn't have the feet/back peddle to be effective in the pass.

I know he's your boy, but geez, there's no reason to get that defensive.

BTW, here's a 2006 pre-draft analysis for Tamba:

You could literally replace "Tamba Hali" with "Brandon Graham" in that article. They are the same type of player, with the exception of Hali having several inches in height over Graham.

He's played LT for 2 years in the NFL. He was asked to drop the 30 pounds and his game suffered because of it. I know you can't analyze offensive line play to save your life, but even you could admit that Albert had a pretty good rookie year.

So the Chiefs draft Okung, move Albert to RT and this makes the line better how? They aren't moving Brian Waters from LG.

Seems to me like you are the absolute only one that keeps banging the "Albert will always suck at LT".

Good example. The Saints used a first rounder on Jamaal Brown and their line actually improved when Bushrod stepped in. Thank you for proving my point.

I honestly wonder if you even watch college football or if you depend on youtube clips and writeups to give you all your information.

Hey dumbass, everyone knows that LT's are worth a top pick. The point is there isn't a LT THIS YEAR worth the pick. Okung isn't a better prospect than Albert no matter how many times you tell yourself he is. You seem to think no matter who you draft that high is great no matter how good of a prospect he is. Thats why you sir, are ****ing stupid.

That's funny. How he didn't play this year, and you want to pretend like he helped the Saints to a Superbowl. Too funny.

Also, Branden Alberts play progressed as the season went along. I think something like 6 of the 9 sacks allowed came in the first four games. In his other ten games, he only allowed 3 sacks. That's not as bad as it looks for being given a new playbook 1-2 weeks before the season starts. A playbook which on record has been said to have taken the number of blocking schemes from 5-6 to something like 50.

I can't remember the exact numbers, but this team learned this offense on the fly. Go look at the Oline in the first few weeks, it is OBVIOUS the players were lost. That is something I doubt ANY of these draft gurus know.

I wonder if you watched anything other than the Senior Bowl practices. Hali was dominant at Penn State and was considered a more likely first round pick than Graham is right now. Yes, he did have a very good Senior Bowl, and a very nice 2009 season, but it wasn't drastically better (one could validly argue that it wasn't better) than what Hali put in during his senior year at the exact same position. Plus the fact that Hali has a couple of inches in height over Graham.

But I'm waiting with bated breath for your comparison between the two showing why Graham is substantially superior to Hali was at the same stage of their careers. I mean, you are insinuating that you have watched a shit ton more college games than I have, so, please, give your detailed analysis on the differences between the two based on your extensive viewing experience of Tamba Hali and Daniel Graham during their college playing days.

Hell, the point isn't even that there isn't a guy worth it this year, which there isn't. The point is, that even if there was, he wouldn't be worth it to the Kansas City Chiefs. We really don't know what we have in Branden Albert. The first year he was helped by the style of offense and the mobile QB. This year, he was given a new playbook with 10X as many blocking schemes 1-2 weeks before the season started.

Tell me if you would think if was fair if you lost your job b/c the first year, they did everything in their power to make it as easy on you as possible, and the next, they change everything. Make it basically as hard as possible, and expect you to thrive after only 2 weeks of training with your new, daunting responsibilities. No, you will argue there was a learning curve, and the progress you've shown warrants another chance to be evaluated.

Hell, look at this. These guys have adjusted the stats so that a player who is not at fault does not take fault for a sack. link

It says Branden Albert was only truly responsible for 6 sacks on the season. Not only that, but it also says that the Oline was responsible for 31 of the 42(?) sacks. Cassel and Haley take the blame for the rest.

Also, found this from a poster over at Walterforums. Interesting breakdown.

Basically breaks down # of sacks per team, then adds the % of pass vs. run plays.

The average team gave up 34.25 sacks this season. The Chiefs gave up 8 more than the average, ranking 25th in pass blocking proficiency.

6 sacks came from LT
6 from the TE's (These guys were obviously over matched)
5 to the RG spot (definitely needs to be addressed, on the team or not. Smith/Harris/Brown?)
4 the right tackles
4 from RB/FB (Already been upgraded by cutting LJ who allowed 3)
4 from Wade Smith (played too many spots to be lumped in at one spot)
1 to Rudy Niswanger (bit of a surprise, make me ? their stats a little)
1 to Brian Waters


So with a better OC, better QB play(assuming Weis can help Cassel speed up his reads), better RB play(which had already come into effect at the latter half of the season) and better TE play(Don't deny it, it's not a sexy position, but a good TE would really help this offense block and move the chains) Those numbers could easily come down below average.

Like I said in previous posts, I'm willing to give Albert another year. His should be the hardest spot to play and therefore the hardest to learn and adjust to. The new offense should have affected him the most.

The number for Rudy Niswanger isn't really surprising, given that anytime that Cassel even sniffed pressure up the middle, he stated moving, almost always before it was actually necessary.

Coming out, Hali was considered a high-motor player who was pretty polished but possessed limited upside.

Surprise. The evaluations were correct.

Are you ****ing reeruned? I said he was on IR for the season. He was, however, a first round pick of the Saints and was their starting LT before getting injured. All the previous guy wanted to know was how many 1st round draft picks the two teams had. I obliged him by letting him know that the Saints had one, with the caveat that he was on IR.

The Buffalo game was his second worst performance of the season by a long shot.

I knew how many they had. The fact that neither of them have ONE starting lineman that was drafted in round 1 is what I was going for, you ****ing genius.

You proved my point. Thank you.

Not only are you an obsessed dumbass, you're an intellectually dishonest prick.

where do you guys get all the fuggin energy to argue endlessly about this crap??

:eek:



i must seriously be getting old :sulk:

Come on, Laz.

You're 10 years younger than I am?

More?

**** you Milk. The douche asked me if any of the teams had a first round draft pick at offensive line. Period.

I answered "Jamaal Brown.", with the caveat of him being on IR the whole year. How is that in any way dishonest? I gave him the one guy that was a first round draft pick, with the qualifier that he was hurt the whole season.

And I'm the prick? For providing the information exactly how he wanted it?

Jesus dude. I watched every game Hali and Graham played in college.. and though I am a big fan of Hali.. to equate the two takes a level of ingnorance that is ridiculous.

Let's break it down very simply... would you SERIOUSLY take Hali over Lamarr Woodley? (if so.. you may actually qualify as functionally reeruned...)... Graham is Woodley part 2... PERIOD. HE matured in the same system.. learned everything he could from Woodley.. is physicaly (minus 1 inch) the same man... and has similar stats... so, I ask again... would you take Hali over Woodley?

If you answer Hali you are either a moron or dishonest.

Oh, for Christ's sake...

Graham is not Woodley. Graham is Graham. He's not Hali, he's not Woodley, he is who he is. And he didn't mature into the same system. He is a product of Rodiguez's fun bunch defense that most likely won't be around...perhaps even next year. And I'm not blaming him for that...he's a nice player. But he's a short (by todays standard) defensive end that's never really been asked to do anything other than go get the quarterback. I won't go into why he isn't Lamaar because you won't hear it, and you'll probably get pissed about any Tamba Hali comparisons.

My take is that the guy wouldn't be capable of playing anything other than the rush ROLB spot, and doesn't give you anything more than Hali is already providing. Other than Flowers and Charles, Hali had the most successful year of any Chief and you want to replace him with a shorter version of himself that would be a rookie, with a rookie learning curve? *sigh*

You couldn't play Graham on the SAM side as he lacks the hip turn and backpedal and sideline to sideline burst...you might be able to get away with him as a Mike, but I doubt it as he'd be a liability in mid-zone coverage, so all he really could do in a 3-4 is the ROLB spot. And...eh, okay...let's draft him. Because Albert is doing well enough that he needs to stay at LT, but Hali had a craptasitic season so we should burn our first second round pick on a guy like Graham. Because of all positions on the Chiefs, Hali is the one guy that stands out as being a slackadasical pussbag that needs immediate replacement.

Super duper.

and, you obviously don't watch college football. bye.

There is so much ignorance in this post that I after this response I need to move to the next topic and hopefully not have to remind you of how idiotic you are being in this regard later.

To recap..

#1 his name is BRANDON Graham, not Daniel. ( I let this slide a few posts back)
#2 He spent his first year learning from Woodley... in a Lloyd Carr U-M team. And the next year under Carr again... (you REALLY don't watch college football do you?)
#3 What the **** is the Rich Rod "fun bunch" ? are you ****ing high? please elaborate upon this pulled out of your ass posit...
#4 you won't go into why he isn't Woodley because you CAN'T... please try... Woodley says Graham is Woodley, Graham says he is, damn near every scout says he is.. (except a few say he is Dumervil) ... his coaches say he is... but PLEASE explain why YOU know better than someone who has watched EVERY game both players have played(me) and every credible scout I have read.... if you have facts, tape, ANYTHING .. I'd love to hear it.
#5 your analysis of Graham is laughable at best... once again, please tell me which GAMES (not youtube clips) you have watched of him...

Lastly... IF you could pull your head out of your ass for a second and ADMIT that Graham is very likely a Woodley clone... can you HONESTLY say you wouldn't take Woodley(part 2) in a heartbeat with our 2a pick?(and feel you got a steal)

Why wouldn't you take a Lamarr Woodley with your round 1 pick? 10+ sacks a year when starting.

If Graham, Iupati and Cody are all on the board at 2a, who would you guys take?

Im taking Graham and trying like hell to package Atls 2b and other picks to move up to take either of the others.

I would probably take Graham. But, I would like to see how he does at his pro day standing up instead of from a three point stance. Admittedly, I did not see him play much at Michigan this year(some in the ND and OSU games).

The question that needs to be answered first:

Could/would Lamar Woodley rack up 10+ sacks a year surrounded by the likes of our front 7?

[QUOTE=OnTheWarpath58;6516683]The question that needs to be answered first:

Could/would Lamar Woodley rack up 10+ sacks a year surrounded by the likes of our front 7?[/QUOTE

Well let's hope that we replace more than just one starter in our front seven. If we don't it won't be much different.

PhilFree:arrow:

And you know this how? You obviously haven't watched him play... so where do you get your info? (btw... what position does Hali play and what position does Woodley play? Here's a hint... NOT THE SAME ONE DUMBASS)

Also... you do know that until U-M put him at DE, Graham had played LB his entire career...

See my post regarding his career as a standout linebacker before U-M

The funny thing is....is that he won't respond to your post. I called him out on shit in another thread and he just ignored it and moved on. Once he's been proven wrong....he moves onto something else.

I loved that Saccoshit just got owned by the ruler of Chiefsplanet.

In a perfect world, Berry would slip to us (barring shoulder concerns) then Graham falls to our 2a... and Washington (TCU) falls to our 3. Alot invested in the D, but all would contribute immediately.

(I'd take someone like Maurkice Pouncey with the 2b.. or best WR available)

I'd like to see more of what Cam Thomas can do and if he's worth a shot for a NT in the third

1. Graham
2. Iupati
3. Cody

Graham gets the nod because of the position he plays

I think you take Cody because there is a good chance there will still be pass rushers available at the 2b pick. Other than Cody and Williams there don't appear to be that many good NT prospects.

To me, all three would be homeruns.

Cody makes our run defense much much better after his first year (where if we draft him expect some drastic measures for the kid that might not go over well on the Planet because he will have a big adjustment period) he is a behemoth and if he gets motivated properly, he could be a all pro nose in the NFL.

Iupati would make JC lethal on those toss sweeps and would drastically improve our power running game. I am one of the few here that still values the line play and would love for him to be our 2a pick.

Graham is IMHO the best of the three because he would not only give us a pass rush opposite Hali which would make the secondarys job much easier, he is also stout against the run and could man our LOLB spot for years (unless part of his game would be a huge detriment to the needs of the position)

I hope they hit a homerun, I feel similarly to how I felt prior to the 08 draft which is proving to be a homerun IMHO. Any of these guys at 2a would be step in the right direction.

Cam Thomas was dominate in the Senior Bowl, and lets not forget KC could go the FA route for a NT.

So you're going to try to honestly convince anyone that you didn't know that he was talking specifically about the players on the OL that played and contributed this year.

As I said, you are an intellectually dishonest prick.

Anything to try and push your agenda.

Dickbreath.

I value OL play, but I don't see the value of using the #5 pick a LT that doesn't offer any more potential that the LT we already have in place.

You wont find a single post anywhere of mine that disagrees with this statement one bit, but I would love for us to spend one of the seconds on Pouncey, Iupati, Johnson or another elite interior linemen.

Okung and a couple other OL are gonna be good players, but not great players and at 5 you have to take someone that has potential of being a great player.

Yes, he did. Middle linebacker to be specific.

Again, you are being a douche. I specifically stated Brown, with the caveat that he was on IR all season.

How is that intellectually dishonest?

Let me clue you in - it's not.

If you want to argue for the sake of arguing, that's one thing. Maybe it's your only thing.

What was your point in posting about Brown then? Did you think I didn't know he was on IR or drafted by the Saints in the first round?

You are a smug one who sucks the penis.

I'm sure you google searched it after AustinChief bent you over and kicked your ****ing ass in.

Tool.

LMAO