Buster Posey gets destroyed, Agent Jeff Barry whines
 

Completely clean play. I'm sure this guy would be whining like this had it happened to some ****stick that plays for Pittsburgh.

ESPN discusses the play:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/s...=ESPNHeadlines

Video:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co..._copy_15201655

Yeah let's change a 100+ year old rule just because a young star broke his leg

So is this Berry bundle of sticks suggesting a fine? The threat of a fine wouldn't change that play.

It's an unfortunate rule.... But if catchers can block the plate, then what can you do?

Watched the video. I agree that a player shouldn't be allowed to crush the catcher like that and have absolutely no intentions of doing so to be able to get to the plate. It was blatantly obvious that the runner slammed in to Posey with the only intention of preventing him from catching the ball. The only time a player should be able to run in to the catcher is if the catcher is completely blocking the entire plate and the runner is just trying to clear room so he can get to the plate. Would be tough to enforce I guess, but I suppose it would just be a judgement call made by the home plate ump.

Allow the catcher to call for a fair catch, direct the runner to the dugout, and reconstruct the play using CGI that would determine the likelihood of the runner reaching the plate. If the software determines that the runner would have a 60% likelihood of scoring, his team would be awarded 0.6 runs. In fact, if this idea catches on, teams wouldn't really have to have any real players. It's in the game.

The problem with that play is that Posey doesn't have the plate blocked completely. The back portion was exposed (not on purpose, mind you), so contact could have been avoided.

That said, if I'm the runner, I'm going to initiate contact in that situation.

His client could always get out of the way if he's afraid of getting hurt.

Cousins didn't do anything wrong. We have all seen worse collisions at home plate before. If they try and change the rules on playes at the plate then they better ready to change the rules for every bag. Because then you won't be able to try and break up a double play either. Rule needs to stay they way it is. It is up to the catcher to put himself in the proper position to make the play and not get injured.
Feel sorry for the guy but this is just part of the game.

I remember Bo Jackson totally destroying Orioles Catcher Rick Dempsey at home plate one night. Bo just killed him, sent the guy rolling head over heels almost back into the Royals Dugout.

And of course, the Pete Rose/Ray Fosse collision in the 1971 All Star game is legendary. It ruined Fosse's career.

According to someone on 810 this morning (I think Buster Olney), blocking the plate isn't really legal.

I think it's a legitimate gripe and one I never really thought of. In football, the big "no-no" is launching yourself at an offensive player. I think what this guy did is a lot different than just plowing someone over. I don't think you should get tagged for helmet to helmet or anything like that. But I think if you leave your feet to launch at a catcher, that's something they should stop.

This. Don't block the freaking plate and you won't get hurt. It's pretty simple. Does this idiot think this is the first time this has ever happened?

this whole catcher vs runner thing doesn't really fit into baseball anyway.

Baseball is not a contact sport and yet in this one instance it's allowed?

i don't really care but it's kinda weird.

Its already against the rules. It just needs to be enforced correctly. Blocking bags shouldn't be allowed, and neither should plowing into the fielder (catcher, ss, etc.). Just enforce the rules. Either you beat the throw, or the throw beats you.

You can't mow over the first baseman, and he can't get in your way while he waits for the throw. If the batter gets in the catcher's way, its interference, but they let runners break up the double play by going after the shortstop. There's no reason for it.

The NFL should probably go to two hand touch. I mean, do you know how many RBs' careers are cut short due to hits?

Well then you have to stop the players from trying to break up a double play at 2cd too. You know sliding in with thier spikes or sliding late and catching the defensive player up in the air and fliping him over.
Where would it ever stop.

Well, wouldn't it stop if they just enforced the rules on those two scenarios? Those are the only two scenarios in baseball where they allow the runner to make contact with teh fielder and it not be deemed runner/player interference. Not sure when and why they started allowing it, but as someone above already stated, there are rules already in place that should make both scenarios against the rules. They just don't enforce them.

Correct that you cannot block any base without the ball. The fielder is supposed to allow the runner access to the base. Here, Posey does this. He's absolutely not at fault.

If they started making contact illegal, the fielders would have to make some serious adjustments since they rarely are touching the base on force-outs anymore.

I'd love to somehow become a MLB umpire and just piss everyone off because I actually required an infielder to catch the ball and touch the base. No more courtesy out calls. Just one time, I want to see an umpire look at the fielder for a second, signal safe, then explain to the fielder that he never touched the base while possessing the ball.

The difference is at home there has to be a tag. As a runner you just going to give up and let them tag you when part of the rule is that they have to keep possession of the ball through the tag for it to be an out? At second the fielder has to have his foot on the bag. So by Rule you have to be in the way. As the runner you have to keep going full speed because you don't know when a fielder is going to make an error and you would be safe.

These professionals are taught this stuff from the time they start playing ball.

Completely agree with you. It has always pissed me off that SS are allowed to be within the vicinity of 2nd base and it be considered contact with the bag to make a force out. It is not how the rules are written but it has become an acceptable part of the game for some reason.

at every base there has to be a tag unless it's a force play ... force plays work at home too when the bases are loaded. :shrug:

no rule difference other than the whole block/tackle thing because the catcher is wearing pads. You supposed to be able to take out the guy at 2nd during a double play too but the players decided that it wasn't worth it.

For me, it's not only 2B. Happens at 1B a lot as well (not counting stretch plays). On plays that are routine outs, I notice a lot of first-basemen stepping off as the ball is almost to them. Umps always call the runner out.

As I previously stated, it would be enforced based on the players intent. There are many times in baseball where it is obvious that the player is intentionally over-sliding second base with intent to break up a double play and, as is the case with the Posey play, the players intent is to smash in to the catcher to prevent him from only catching the ball. Those plays, when blatantly obvious, should be consider runner interference based on how the rules are written and should be automatic outs. And the same would be true for the fielders intent. If the catcher intentionally blocks the runner's access to the bag, then it should be ruled interference by the fielder and the runner would be automatically safe. The rules are pretty straight forward in these scenarios if you ask me.

Ed Hoculi should switch over to MLB. He would be the ideal umpire to explain this to the fans next time it happens.

Ben Dreith.

catcher blocking the plate, runner trying to score.

Oh well, what's the problem again?

Note to Schierholtz: Sorry, but FYI when they carry you off the field with one leg dangling, it usually means more than you just got the wind knocked out of you.

The problem is that Posey wasn't really blocking the plate. The runner goes out of his way to hit him.

Something, something, rules, something.

Dude, the OF is like 225 feet away! Nate must be missing a few key brain cells.

He was definitely blocking the plate. Did it require blowing him up? Maybe not, but if you're the baserunner making a split second decision you better do it just in case.

I guess I should watch the replay again. I watched it a few times this morning and saw him as only partially blocking.

Could he have slid around....yes, is it his fault the catcher got hurt no way. You establish the collision to jar the ball loose, it's always been that way. Would there be an issue if Cousins had slid head first to avoid the tag and Posey drove his face in the dirt with his glove making the tag? Don't think so. Perspective is a tough thing....

Yes you can mow over the first baseman. If the fielder is in the base path, the runner is in no way obligated to avoid him. In fact, if the base runner leaves the path, he is called out.

My problem is that the ball wasn't there yet. If a catcher wants to block the plate with the ball in hand, that's one thing. The runner should have free authority to smash him. But in this case, the ball wasn't there.

Looks to me as though Posey is thrusting himself (without the ball — oops) to his left into the path just before the collision. It also appears that the runner is thrusting himself to his left out of the path just prior to the collision. Both players are doing pretty much what I'd expect them to do.

The ball was on the ground and Cousins didn't have anyway of knowing Posey didn't catch it.

Partially is still blocking and when he gets the ball he is coming the rest of the way across.

If you crush him once the ball is already well in his hand it's too late and you're out anyway. That would be less defensible to me.

OK. Watched it again. I'm on board with the collision then.

However, if he were not blocking the plate, and the runner goes out of his way to him, it should be illegal.

I am sure cousins was watching the catcher to see him reach for the ball which means the ball is there. And the Ball was there at the same time he got there. It was a bang bang play for sure.

No, not if the catcher drops the ball from the collision. The cousins is safe.

If they change the rules it needs to be across the board. No swiping at the ball at first. No blocking at home. No plowing at home. No breaking up double plays.

Carlos Santana was also a young star who broke his leg doing the same thing last year. I'd say it's worth looking at.

More pussification.

There's always barber school.

from what i can see, the runner runs directly over the plate. Posey wasnt blocking it, but he was definitely above it. I call clean play.

Posey just have a freak accident. His leg just got caught under him. It sux that he got hurt, but i dont think the runner did anything wrong. He didnt move left or move right to make contact, dude just put his shoulder down and went directly for the plate.

Since when? If the first baseman is in the basepath or standing on the bag, he's fair ****ing game.

He gets bounced back over the plate, but he's not heading directly at it in the moment before impact.

This is true. Little leaguers are even coached to do that if somebody is in the base path.

post #36

Any coach who instructs Little League players to do this should be ashamed.

To me, this doesn't look like a guy headed directly to the plate.

Okay - what advice would you give to a kid who is running from 1st to 2nd, but there is a player standing right in the base path? I can tell you the guidance given is pretty much unwaveringly to "run em over". (And on the flip side, "don't stand in the base path if you don't want to get run over.") If you can get around them, then obviously do that, but if you have to run outside the base path the ump is going to call you out.

Thank you

Little League players should be taught to make contact and stop, which forces the obstruction call. No need to run anyone over with kids under 14, and coaches should reinforce this. All about fundamentals.

In high school, it's fair game.

I can see where his arms and part of his upper body leans toward the catcher but look at his feet. They are still on the white line which is the basepath that he has to by rule stay on. In bracing for impact he has to choose where to hit the catcher. Looks like he was choosing the chest protector or padding to avoid truely hurting anyone. Keeping in mind the catcher has a lot of protective gear on.
Can't help but wonder if the gear on his leg, shin, and the ankle or heal protector kept his leg from moving to where it wouldn't of been as severe.

No, they should be taught to kill /Hardcore I was cut from my JV team Dad

Huh make contact and stop....When you are running as hard as you can I don't see how it is expected to stop that momentum.
Lets run hard for 89 feet and then stop in the last foot.

Contact in the middle of the base path. It's possible to make contact and not "run someone over," even if the player is going 100%.

At the base, the player should always be sliding. Yeah, sometimes contact is flat out unavoidable there, but it's easy to avoid "take out slides," which again have no place in Little League baseball.

Not sure how you meant this part.
But if they are in the middle halfway between the bases then the runner is interfering with a play or the fielder is out of position and the runner advances safely.
If the fielder is in the middle of the base path in front of a base then you are not going to be able to go around then or try and lighten the contact. Send him a message to get out of the way for the next time.

I think rules should be different for catchers than shortstops because catchers have the gear to absorb it and it's just a common unwritten rule that a catcher should expect to be popped. And because the catcher has gear, that puts a runner at a severe disadvantage when a catcher is allowed to block out 95% of his angles.

What I have a problem with is, again, launching at a catcher. If you're going to hit a catcher, hit him upright and don't lead with your shoulder. It's not that much different from helmet to helmet contact in football. This hit was perfectly legal, but people should have a big problem with a guy running at full speed launching head/shoulder first into a catcher, and in this case, using a little forearm too. That's an easy way to get seriously hurt that can be avoided by a simple rule change.

I mean literally the middle of the base path. Second baseman sleeping, not involved in the play, and obstructs the runner.

Little Leaguers don't need to "send messages." If this stuff starts in high school, fine, but it shouldn't begin before this.

Yes, and I think that is perfectly legal too. It just doesn't happen very often if at all. Interfering with a player as he's fielding the ball... yes, that is definitely one where the runner should absolutely back off.

Yeah I don't know that this is taught at a young age. When I played little league, it was illegal to get to home plate and do anything but slide. I once went head up into home, didn't come close to plowing over the catcher and was called out.

I am not talking about or worrying about Little Leagers here. They will all fall in line with what MLB does.

I don't think that MLB should serve as a direct model for kids. I have zero problem with lighting up a catcher or middle infielder in the pros, but I have a big problem with kids doing either.

I am sure that little league has its own rules for protecting the kids. But if it wasn't for the MLB there would be little to no interest in having little league.

Thing is, I have yet to see it be an issue in little league. Kids usually don't have the weight, speed, or inertia to really hurt anybody. If I saw kids mowing each other down in the baselines and turning the sport generally violent/dangerous I would have an issue with it, but it doesn't seem to happen. Some of this is probably because kids are warned that the base runner will run them over if they don't stay out of the way. So they just get out of the way.

so it's ok to try and 'blast' someone as long as you can't

but if you can then you shouldn't?


:p

What year was that? Bob Dole launched an idiot first baseman who was standing on the bag in '77, and other than the pissed off mommy who came running on to the field from the stands, the only thing Bob Dole got was called safe after advancing to 2nd (because nobody else had sense to pick up the damned ball).

That was a chickenshit play by the runner. He just launched his shoulder in to the catcher. Reminded me of Pete Rose / Ray Fosse. He could have slid. He he had helmet to helmet contact. That would be a fine in the NFL let alone MLB.

Then they should not be allowed to block the plate. It is a simple rule change.

Yes, by all means. Give him a love tap in the 12th inning of a tied game when you represent the winning run and just hope the ball trickles out.

:spock:

you need to do a little better reading I am and have been defending what Posey did. It is Deez Nutz that I was qouting and responding too.

That's true only if the catcher has the ball.

Watched the play a couple times, I'm fine with it.

Facts: The runner ran in a straight line. He didn't go out of his way (ie run off the base path) to make contact with the catcher, he was on the chalk at all times. It is true that he lowered his shoulder and blew him up (made more contact) rather than slide, but he believed the catcher caught it and he had no choice.

Rules: The runner has an absolute right to the basepath at all times. This should not be changed, so rather than focusing on the runner, we should focus on the defense and consider whether the catcher should be banned from the basepath. (presumably he'd have to make a swipe tag) I believe the rules are fine as is. If we ban the catcher from the basepath, we make it too easy to score from 3rd, since its often not a force play (so the catcher must tag) and the throw is frequently a long one that can be slightly off-line causing him to either drift over and block the plate whether he wants to or not, or just let the runner cause him to not catch the throw and let other runners advance.

As far as "blocking the plate" goes, yes it is illegal to block the plate without the ball, but that is almost never applicable at home. In the rules, the defense is punished for blocking the plate when they don't have the ball. If the defense does have the ball and is trying to tag, he can block the plate, and the runner can try to slide in, or run him over if he's allowed to run through the bag (batter to 1st base, and 3rd to home, but it never happens at 1st because thats always a force play). If the catcher doesn't have the ball and is blocking the plate, yeah that is illegal obstruction, but who cares, if he doesn't have the ball the runner is obviously going to score, so its moot.