Haley versus McDaniels
 

For those that think I love Cassel, I don't. I just think that Haley isn't nearly the offensive coordinator that McDaniels is. I think the biggest reason that many on here think that Orton is better is because he had two years with McDaniels while the Chiefs had Haley, then Weis, and now Haley again.

Orton and Cassel have both struggled this year.

Haley had a great offense in Arizona with Kurt Warner. McDaniels had a great offense with Tom Brady, but he also has had good offenses with Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel....ahem.... Kyle Orton and Matt Cassel.

In 2007, Haley's first as a offensive coordinator, there is no comparison. McDaniels had a record setting offense at the top of the league. Haley had the 12th best offense. Winner: McDaniels. Haley might get some credit here since he was in his first year with the Cardinals. But, The Pats set the world on fire and set records and were just so much better, that you have to give the nod to McDaniels.

In 2008, Haley had the fourth rated offense. He had Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, and Breaston. Granted, the running backs weren't great. Edgerin James wasn't quite what he once was and they had Tim Hightower.

In 2008, McDaniels had the fifth rated offense. He had Matt Cassel, Randy Moss and Wes Welker. And, believe it or not, the running backs in NE were even MORE underwhelming. Lamont Jordon, Maroney, Sammy Morris.

2008 edge: Despite Arizona ranking one spot higher, it would be foolish not to notice the distinct advantage in talent around Haley. so the edge goes to McDaniels.

2009- Daniels had the 15th best offense. He had Orton, Marshall and Royal. He didn't have much of a running threat.

In 2009, Haley had the 25th best offense. He had Matt Cassel, D-Bowe, and Charles. Yeah, he didn't give Charles a ton of time until the end of the season. Who's fault is that? Who is the coach that saw JC on the field every day and still decided to play LJ?

In 2010, Haley had Weis as offensive coordinator. The Chiefs were 12th in offense. The Broncos were 13th. The Chiefs had better offensive talent. Jones was still playing well last year, JC was out of this world. They had D-Bowe and Moeaki as well. Luckily, Haley had Weis to know how to use the talent. With Weis, they managed to be one spot higher than the Broncos.

McDaniels had Orton, B LLoyd, Eddie Royal. Yet, he managed to get to the 13th ranking.

2011. Finally, a year that Haley can probably claim as better than McDaniels. The Chiefs are 27th in offense. The Rams are 29th.

Now, lets look at talent. Matt Cassel versus Sam Bradford. Bradford is the obvious answer. However, a second year guy going into a new system, and an offseason with no training camp. Again, Bradford is the better guy, but overall situation? Haley might have the better overall situation. Cassel and even Palko had been with the Chiefs for a full year.

Both McDaniels and Haley have had to have two games played with their backup QB.

Jackson is clearly superior to anything that the Chiefs have in the backfield since JC went down.

However, look at the talent on the outside and you will see the Chiefs have Bowe, Breaston and Baldwin..... heck, even McCluster would probably be one of the Rams top two WR's. Not kidding. They have Brandon Lloyd and Brandon Gibson. That is their top two WR's.

So, even conceding that they have the best QB and RB in St. Louis, you look at the fact that McDaniels came to a brand new team without an offseason and is only 2 spots worse than the team that Haley has been building for three years.

McDaniels was a crappy personnel guy. I concede that fact every day of the week. But, when it comes down to x's and o's. He outshines Haley by a huge margin.

I think Haley may be the better overall head coach, but from a purely offensive creativity and coordination standpoint. Haley is far inferior to McDaniels.

And any comparison between Orton and Cassel has to be based in this reality.

And, please understand, I am not a huge Cassel fan. I want him gone. But, this idea that Orton is an upgrade is fools gold. They are both mediocre QB's that have looked good under McDaniels. And, in Cassel's case, at least decent under Weis.

Im just not a big believer in Haley anymore. His Win/loss record speaks for itself, which is about on par with Herm Edwards Chiefs. He might have some upside, but i dont see a whole lot of it. 10 wins is about the most hes capable of. At times his teams look and play unprepared, and his offense goes dormant for 3 quarters only to come alive towards the end of the game. We have seen this for 3 seasons now.

So the answer is that when McDaniels has a better offense, it is because he is the better coach. When Haley has the better offense, it is because he has/had more talent.
Posted via Mobile Device

This situation seems to have affected you in some way, Mr. SensibleChiefsfan.

Might I suggest that you consider developing a side-interest and stepping away from football for awhile? Like, say ... bowling, maybe? Bowling can be fun. It's pretty good exercise and they even have automatic scoring systems at most bowling alleys. Bowling groupies are cool, too ... even though they sometimes smell like socks. Then, after you've bowled a few games, picked up a bowling groupie for the night, and turned in your shoes, you can enjoy a burger and coke at the arcade.

FAX

McDaniels offenses in Denver put up yardage, but I don't think they were necessarily a "great" offense. They were ranked 20th in points scored in 2009 and 19th in points scored in 2010.

Other than this year, and 2007, can you really argue against the fact that Haley has more talent?

Bowling sounds nice.

But, I suppose I should actually get to work. Either way, I need to get off this board...

McDaniels would be a good OC with your team, but not a HC... therefore, you should hire him to replace Haley.

Haley believes that an offense has to be able to run effectively out of the pro set to win championships.

McDumbass uses more spread to effectively mask the QB's deficiencies as a pro style QB.

Every SB has been won by teams, and QBs, that can run effectively out of the pro set.

That is the primary reason that most pro personnel people are looking at QBs and trying to figure out of they have what takes to learn the mechanics of the QB position out of the pro set.

that sounds very pleasant actually.

they're all worthless pieces of shit and not worth writing 15 words about, unless they're curse words...

i'd Prefer Josh McDaniels if it doesn't take 5 games for his team to score a TD.

Do you believe an effective pro set QB/ offense is the only way to win a superbowl? just curious.

5 years ago I would have answered with a definitive yes.

However, with the rules set the way they are now, I am no longer certain that is the case.

That's kind of where I am at as well.

I'd love to have McDaniels as an Offensive Coordinator.

This, a thousand times this.

First: Our D bailed out our shitty Offense when we went 6-0.

Second: When our Offense finally picked up as our Defense got worn out, broken down and exposed by lack of talent, we only passed the ball. Lucky for us that everything "clicked" for Kyle Orton when we needed it to, which brings me to...

Third: We never ran the ball well under McD. The Pats were an "effective" running team with McD as the OC. As in with Tom Brady back there the running game opened up just enough to make some plays and put up garbage time yardage.

McD was Shanny Junior without the pedigree or maturity, or the ability to kiss the ass of prima donna "stars" to keep them on the team. Oh yeah. It was wonderful to see my team pass for a shitload of yards but lose game after game because they couldn't do jack shit with the ball when they had to, and hand it back over to a Defense that closely resembled a wet paper towel. **** that noise.

He's fine as an OC if someone is around to force him to run the ball. He may very well be Mike Martz's love child.

This is Sensible's passive aggressive streak showing it's face again...

You know that deep down he really wants to post a treatise on why he LOVES McDaniel and thinks that having him and Cassel, together, in KC next year makes him wet with anticipation.

But he knows what kind of dogpile that would be so instead he tries to mask it all with stats and gobbledy-gook...

i'd be cool with that as well.
especially since Pioli will probably not draft a QB anyway.
plus Orton knows his offense and put up some good numbers with him in Denver.

it's not what i would prefer but it would be better than going 4-5 games w/o scoring a TD.

Haley and Muir got more out of Matt Cassel than McDaniels can get from Sam Bradford.

Think about it.

Minus all his pregame walk through tapes, I'm not sure McDaniels is good OC at all. The rams went from scoring 18 points a game to 12 points a game. The NFC west is a shitty division and it's not like the rams have a ton of different pieces as last season.

Why? The Rams look awful on offense this season.

Of Sensiblechiefsfans 5200 posts I believe I have agreed with 3. The opening post is not one of them.

This

Psychoanalysis by a dumbshit.

Ironic.

Ouch... and theres your answer, folks.

You mean he would only run Marshall Faulk 9 times in the Super Bowl too?

He probably wouldn't run Faulk at all. Flea flicker.

You keep repeating this shit while ignoring the fact that McDaniels has done shit in St. Louis with Bradford.

Kyle Orton is not going to magically surrender his ability to throw accurately without McDaniels.

You are full of crap.

McDaniels drafted Tebow. Tebow is 5-1. McDaniels would have started Tebow week one, which would mean Tebow would be 10-1 at this point, and McDaniels would be the best coach evar!!!!!1

:)

So you're on board with a McDaniels/Cassel reunion in KC, too?

Read what he wrote.

"Please understand, I hate Matt Cassel. But I really like the thought of bringing in McDaniels to work with Matt Cassel."

Passive.

Aggressive.

Hell in 2008/2009 thats what he wanted.

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...4&postcount=47

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...6&postcount=43

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...8&postcount=34

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=209

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=126

http://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showp...&postcount=129

You haven't been watching them, have you?

The whole OL is different from 2010 OL, aside from Bell, right now. Dahl is playing RT while Goldberg is at LT, Brown is playing RG because he sucks at center, Wragge is starting at center now. Both Saffold and Smith are out for the year.

Amendola is out for the year, Kendricks is a rookie, Lloyd was acquired via trade etc.

So yes, there is a rather large difference from this Rams team to last season's.

So Bradford needs a better O-line and receiver corps too? Steven Jackson is better than anything we had in the backfield this year.

LMAO

Chiefs OL is probably better than the Rams OL.

It's ****ing pathetic and sad. The Rams have paid big money for their OL, and Dahl has been the only one who has been earning his contract.

I would say that Orton looked better while McD was coaching him up. Obviously Orton isn't just going to lose ability just because a particular coach isn't around. But Orton did lose a valuable mentor and looked substantially worse to start this season. Too many variables to say it was a direct cause-and-effect relationship. McD's departure and Orton's decline, that is.

Bradford would murder people with our talent we have on offense.

Noting this post for the benefit of the true fans...

There's an idea, we trade 2012 and 2013 1st rounders for Bradford... and Cassel to sweeten the pot.

Not only no but **** NO!

We can give them Cassel for free.

No.

Holy ****ing FAIL.

if we could have gotten urban meyer, both pouncey brothers and mcdaniels as OC, and traded for tebow it would haev owned!!

i like josh more than haley. he seems more hands on in the game, where as haley just stands there with his arms crossed looking for the player whos going to be the biggest tough guy to give more playing time to

I keep thinking this is another "Haley vs McDonald's" thread.

That's brilliant. Please post more.

i liek you a lot.

i used sarcasm too, am i a good troll?

Nope. The New England Patriots proved that an offense can do mediocre in the Superbowl, and still win with a game ending field goal, which they did twice. Remember the Tampa Bay Buccaneers' SB win against the Oakland Raiders? Their defense intercepted Rich Gannon 5 TIMES, with three of them being returned for touchdowns. Brad Johnson is not what led the Bucs to the Superbowl, it was their scorching hot defense that did.

A wise man once said that an offense wins seasonal games, but defenses win championships.

I hope you die horribly.

Why? Because I spoke an ounce of truth you disagreed with? By the way, eight of the last sixteen Superbowl MVP's have been non-QB's. What does that entail? It means that a QB can only be half as good as the rest of his offense, and still win a Superbowl title. Just over 50% of all the Superbowl MVP's have been quarterbacks, so a QB doesn't necessarily need to be a superstar to lead his team to the Superbowl.

One other thing worth noting is that out of the 6 Superbowls won by the Pittsburgh Steelers, the SB MVP had been awarded to a QB just twice (Terry Bradshaw). Plus, of the 7 Superbowls that the Dallas Cowboys have been to, only 2 of them ended in the QB getting the Superbowl MVP trophy.

In case you haven't noticed, that style of play just doesn't win SBs nowadays.

Not really. I would have been fine with McDaniels coming in this year as OC.

Assuming he is still with the Rams after this season, he can't come in as OC next year.

The next coaching hire is actually pretty difficult. A guy like Cowher would be great, but he will want his own staff and more control over personnel.

A guy like Fisher would be good, but he is burnt out and probably wouldn't stay with the 3-4.

I wonder if Crennel would stay on as a DC if the Chiefs replaced Haley without giving him the job.

I could see a guy like Mangini or McDaniels being hired as HC. Of those two, I like Mangini better as HC.

But, the reality is that Haley needs to go. No matter what happens with Cassel, Haley needs to go.

Haley is the one putting Palko back out on the field and talking about all the things that go into being a QB aside from throwing the ball and how Palko is excellent at all those things.

Haley is the one that started LJ over JC.

I actually like Haley's personality. But, I think he took over a team with Kurt Warner, Larry Fitzgerald and Boldin and that made him look better than he is.

This is the dumbest ****ing post anyone on this forum has ever made in regards to the QB debate.

For ****'s sake, just because Jerry Rice won the MVP in a Super Bowl doesn't mean Montana isn't a great QB. Santonio Holmes and Deion Branch won MVPs in Super Bowls with Tom Brady and Ben Roethlisberger. You want to tell me they aren't "superstar" QBs?

What about: John Elway, Brett Favre and Troy Aikman? They didn't win MVPs in Super Bowl wins.

****ing idiot.

Bradford has far less talent around him than Cassel has here or Orton had in Denver.

McDaniels is starting from scratch in St. Louis. Haley has been building this offense for three years.

Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin in KC versus..... Brandon LLoyd and Gibson.

Even McCluster would be the second best pass catcher there.

Yes, they have Steven Jackson, which is better than any back in KC.

But, the offensive line in KC is better, as hard as that is to believe.

I don't remember writing that. If you could, do me a favor and quote the post that I did that in and just bold that part for me.

Thanks.

Hate is a strong word for my feelings towards Cassel. I would like him replaced. I would like a franchise QB. But, to excuse Haley's shortcomings because of Cassel is foolish. Weis and McDaniels have proven that you can have a decent,if not great, offense with Cassel.

That isn't to say I want Cassel here or even McDaniels. (other than as OC) It is just to point out how inept Haley has been.

It isn't like Haley has no say in personnel. Cassel may not be his ideal QB, but, if he hate him as much as this board thinks....If he really felt like he couldn't have an offense that he wanted with Cassel..... Cassel wouldn't be here.

This year, Orton looked like the QB that he was in Chicago. ie: Orton looked like he did every other year that he wasn't being coached by McDaniels.

But, I am SURE, that this is all just coincidence.

No thanks.

I would rather have RGIII or Landry Jones.

I actually like Haley more as a HC, but he needs to hire a competent OC.

Muir isn't cutting it.

I don't know that Haley can work with a competent OC for an extended time period. Heck, by the end of the season last year, the rumors were swirling about him and Charlie Weis.

This tells me that although a player that's not a QB can have a tremendous impact on any given day, QB is still, by a wide margin, the MVP(osition).

You think the difference between Cassel in 2007 and 2009 is Weis and McDaniels?

See, I'm in the 'talent wins football games' camp. KC succeeded offensively because of Jamaal Charles. Since Haley arrived (meaning Cassel's career in KC) Kc averages 20 PPG with Charles in the lineup. We average 13 PPG without him.

Charles makes a bigger difference than an OC.

1 good WR being thrown to by a garbage QB is what we have on offense. That's it.

Same thing in NE. McDaniels didn't make Cassel look good. Moss and Welker did.

Talent wins games in this league.

The part that you are leaving out is the wise man said this a long time ago.

Now, at one time, this was true. However, you really need to have a balanced team to win a Championship. Given the new rules, even a great defense will give up points to a great offense. You have to at least be able to keep up offensively.

Also, the Bucs defense was the same for a long time. It was great. Tony Dungy was the head coach. The offense stunk. Gruden came, and suddenly, they win a Super Bowl. The defense was actually not quite as good, but the offense..... the offense was much better.

Oh, and the Pats were mediocre on both sides of the ball. They were the first team in the history of the league not be rated in the top ten in either offense or defense and still win the Super Bowl. So, you could use that team to argue that you don't need an elite defense either.

The bucs had their best defenses in history in 2002. They were ranked #1 in nearly every category. The offensive production barely changed. They actually averaged fewer points than they did in 2001 under Dungy.

Monte Kiffin was the genius behind that D. Not Dungy.

Point being... get a quality QB or have a defense that ranks in the top 5 of all time.

One of these is easier to achieve than the other.

Like I said, too many variables:

1) Defenses tend to be ahead of Offenses to start the season.

2) Our line pass blocked poorly at the beginning of the year.

3) The Broncos tried as hard as they could to keep the pass O that McD put in place but we do have a mostly new coaching staff.

4) Our WR corps regressed with Lloyd being the only consistent target and Decker improving over time.

5) Orton had Tebowmania breathing down his neck, and it's possible that Orton just shit himself under the pressure.


So yeah, I think McD leaving had a negative effect on Orton. They had built a strong working relationship. When Orton first came to the Broncos he said something like, "I have learned more in six months being coached by McD than I learned in six years previously." But there was more going on there.

Charles was here in 2009 for the whole season. The Chiefs scored 18.4 points.

In 2010, the Chiefs scored 22.9. Again, JC was here the whole season.

In 2011, the Chiefs are averaging 15.65 points per game with Cassel in.

JC played the first game in which the Chiefs scored seven points.

As far as Moss/Welker. Yes, they are great. But, McDaniels was able to get over 25 points a game out of a Cassel led offense. You think he would struggle this much with Cassel along with Bowe, Breaston, Baldwin, and McCluster?

Heck, McCluster would probably look like a legit second round pick if we had McDaniels calling the plays instead of Staley Haley.

Heck, look at what he was able to do with Brandon freaking LLoyd and Eddie Royal.

So, to sum it up, yes, I think that Haley is the biggest problem on this offense.

That isn't completely true. I think that Haley doesn't have enough time to be HC and OC and I don't think he can work with a good offensive coordinator.

I would not try to explain the concept of 'correlation does not equal causation". People on message boards like linear thinking.

I stand corrected. I remember the offense being better than the year before. Maybe that was more towards the end of the year when the Bucs were coming together more.

The point still stands that they had a great defense for a long time, and it wasn't until Gruden was hired as the head coach (offensive minded Coach) that they were able to get to the Super Bowl.

I have not doubt that the opponent in the Super Bowl had much to do with their actual winning of the Championship.

As fans, on the oustside of the locker room, coaching and player meetings, we are left with an ability to examine correlation.

Sure, we can attempt to look at causation, but any such attempt would be woefully incomplete.

Also, as fans with opinions, we tend to argue correlation concepts when they favor us, and causation comments when we are trying to refute an argument.

Honestly, the reality is that none of us have it right. Not 100% anyway. Heck, the coaches themselves don't have it right 100%.

This isn't like putting together a puzzle. Football players are human. All kinds of things affect their performance.

While I agree with you, that correlation does not equal causation, I would further state that any examination of causation without all the facts is futile.

Charles barely played until the games against the Jags. Obviously him being on the bench is not what I meant. I'm rather disappointed I have to explain that.

The numbers are there. 20 PPG with charles, 13 PPG without him.

Using him for 2 carries or returning kicks does not count in my eyes. Sorry champ. Charles was a difference maker.

McCluster is not good. You guys need to just accept that he's a slow 5-7 RB who can't break or elude tackles. It's not coaching. He's just not that good. He's a shitty version of Dante Hall. A smaller, slower, less elusive version of Hall. A gadget player without the talent to fill that role. He's not an impact player. He's proven that over the course of 2 seasons. We get him in space over and over and he does NOTHING.

Again, you think the NFL is all about coaching. I'm still sticking with talent. KC would have won no more than 6 games without Charles last season and Weis AND Cassel would have been terrible.

I hope Orton has retained what he learned from McDaniels. I doubt he will get similar coaching up from Haley.

I just purchased a "Forever Lazy".

http://www.tvgasm.com/wp-content/upl...blue-group.jpg

It comes with a zippered butt flap. I am now going to go attempt to take a shit while wearing it. I will get back to this thread when I am finished.

bill muir is angry at this thread

Haley is not going to be the ****ing coach next year so who cares?

Part of being a coach and an offensive coordinator is using the talent to the best of their abilities.

JC riding the bench is on Haley. To think that you would use this as an excuse FOR Haley is astounding.

Their opponent in that game was a gift from god.

What Gruden did to make that team better wasn't about X's and O's. It was one of those intangible things. They were a different team. More motivated... more emotional.

If you recall, Jamaal was putting the ball on the ground a heck of a lot back in those dark days. People who attended camp were talking about it. He was fumbling every second touch.

FAX

How many times do you see a team do a quick turnaround when a new coach is brought in?

Look at the 49ers this year. I still see the same shitty QB that they have had for years starting there.

See, good coaches are able to identify talent. Then, they are able to use that talent to the best of the players ability.

Do you think that JC rides the bench for the first half of McDaniels first season in KC?

I'm not excusing Haley's personnel decisions at all. You're just trying to change the target.

You were talking about his offensive system and ability as a coordinator. I'm pointing out that our offensive success has been more tied to the playing time of Jamaal Charles than who our OC is.

Haley has all kinds of problems, but unless we address the TALENT issue we're just treading water.

Yes. That's a hypothetical that cannot be proven, but LJ was entrenched in the starting RB spot. Over at another chiefs site I started driving the 'start Charles' bandwagon in 2008 and it was lonely. A lot of Chief fans in the 2009 preseason said he was outplayed by Battle and Savage and should have been cut (we kept 4 RB's).

The issue I'm debating isn't if coaches can have an impact. The issue I'm debating is whether coaching ALONE improves our current roster as of today into a good team. I do not believe it does. You, apparently, do. We're just probably not going to agree here.