ChiefsPlanet - Chiefs Outside perspective : Steelers fans thoughts on Poe's potential.

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Outside perspective : Steelers fans thoughts on Poe's potential. (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=259072)

Outside perspective : Steelers fans thoughts on Poe's potential.

I was surprised by the pick given his lack of production supposedly on video & really didn't think he'd even be a consideration with our pick unless we made some moves back into round 1 & were picking later. Came across this discussion of Poe, when just searching around trying to get more information on the guy & trying to see the possible positive upside if this guy would turn to pick out, and I feel like at least he is in a situation that is one of the more ideal in terms of him panning out given supporting players & coaches.... We'll see but I like seeing what others thoughts on the guy are/were:

Quote:

In defense of Dontari Poe; He's not just a combine warrior with no production
Dontari Poe is drawing comparisons to Mike Mamula. Like Mamula, he rocketed up draft boards following an incredible combine workout, including many who considered him to be a potential top 10 pick in the draft (again, like Mamula, who was taken 7th overall). But now his stock seems to be falling back down as analysts realize that his production on the field does not match what his measureables show he should be
able to do. Now it looks like Fletcher Cox is the consensus top 10 DT, Michael Brockers is also ahead of Poe on most draft boards, and all of those comparisons to Haloti Ngata have been thrown right out the window.

Well, let's just look at how poor Poe's on-field production is compared to those other
bohemoths:

Poe:

2009 27 tackles, 7.0 tackles for loss, and 2.0 sacks
2010 41 tackles, 6.5 tackles for loss, and 2.0 sacks
2011 33 tackles, 8.0 tackles for loss, and 1.0 sack

Cox:

2009 29 tackles, 3.5 tackles for loss, and 1.0 sack
2010 29 tackles, 6.5 tackles for loss, and 2.5 sacks
2011 49 tackles, 12.5 tackles for loss, and 4.0 sacks

Brockers:

2010 25 tackles, 1.0 tackle for loss, and no sacks
2011 54 tackles, 10.0 tackles for loss, and 2.0 sacks

Ngata:

2004 46 tackles and 4.0 sacks
2005 61 tackles and 3.0 sacks

I was not able to find Ngata's tackles for loss stat for each individual season, but his
Wikipedia entry credits him for 17.5 tackles for loss in 04-05 combined (and 6.5 sacks in those 2 seasons instead of 7.0).

What I'm getting at...is he really THAT far off of these other guys in terms of on-field performance? His on-field numbers aren't eye-popping like his combine numbers are
(where he was simultaneously the biggest DT, the fastest DT, and the strongest DT), but he at least seems to be in the general neighborhood of some of these other top-rated DT's.

One of the complaints about Poe was that his motor tended to run hot and cold. Well, frankly, his team sucked, so he was on the field ALL THE TIME. The offense couldn't move the ball with regularity, so that lead to a lot of three-and-outs, meaning the defense is forced to go right back out there without any reasonable degree of rest. And the defense wasn't great at stopping anyone either, so he was often out on the field for long, drawn out drives. And since he was the centerpiece of their defense, the one and only guy that opposing offenses had to game plan to stop, he was constantly facing double teams or more. Not to mention that all of this was happening in the brutal Memphis heat (remember how poor our DL looked when we had to play early season games against the Titans in their building a few years ago).

Sure, he may never be a dynamic pass rusher, but that never stopped Casey Hampton from being an excellent nose tackle for us. He will never get big sack numbers, but he will be able to provide a decent push to collapse the pocket in the quarterback's face. He will be stout at the point of attack and able to occupy blockers. He also has the flexibility of being able to play multiple positions (which you know our coaches love). He's got tremendous upside, and is a hard worker with a great attitude and a blue collar work ethic. If he was just big, fat, and lazy, I wouldn't want him, but that seems to be the exact opposite of what he offers.

Remember, before the incredible combine, he was already being talked about as a late-first, early-second round type of guy. If he somehow slips to #24 because teams
are scared off by the Mamula comparisons, I'd happily take him. He won't be ready to start from day one (his game will need a little seasoning), but Snack and McLendon (with a little Ziggy sprinkled in if necessary) should be able to handle the majority of the snaps this year while the rook adjusts to the pro game, and he could be an absolute force for us once Hampton hangs 'em up.

Interesting read. Thanks. I'm not as down on Poe as I was Thursday night and the rest of the draft. Time will tell and I'll give Crennell and Pleasant some time to work with him. We have no other choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by spanky 52 (Post 8582472)

That's kinda how I'm looking at it- he got hyped up & then cooled off so the talk of his bust potential was out there & there was probably less worry that they had to snag him there unless they felt like based on their board he was worth taking over the 2 offers to trade down. Plus, if the Chiefs didn't take him & he turns out to be legit, people would be more passed they let an elite NT slip right by because they were gunshy after spending high draft picks on Dline guys recently. With the new Rookie pay scale, taking a chance on Poe given his potential upside makes a lot more sense than before, because the money you have to pay the guy is way less than what it was before the new CBA. Is it good to draft a bust in the 1st - no, but the risk reward now makes its much easier to justify rolling the dice & see if it can pay off!

Found this on RosterWatch:

Quote:

Dontari Poe – The Best DT in the 2012 NFL Draft
NFL Draft Coverage- The Best Defensive Tackle in the 2012 NFL Draft is Dontari Poe
Alex Dunlap, Rosterwatch.com
When I interviewed Memphis DT/NT Dontari Poe at the Combine, I was literally scared for my life. The man is a monster, and you don’t realize his absolute enormity until you are standing right next to him. His biceps alone were the size of my upper legs, and I am not a tiny dude.
Neither is Poe. But all 346 pounds of him turned in a sub-5 second forty time and pounded out 44 reps of 225 on the bench press in Indy. He reminds me of a more athletic Casey Hampton, and when I asked him about the comparison, he loved it. You should have seen the smile on his face. Although lately, as I have watched more tape on Poe, I believe he has the skills and attributes as a prospect to be even be more of a Vince Wilfork-type player. A dominating, penetrating, yet surprisingly versatile cog in the middle of a defense. The type of nose or 1/3-shade that can make an average linebacking corps look like All-Pros. He told me he was even comfortable at a 5-tech, and honestly- I believe him. Watch his film and check his feet. I honestly think he could handle QB contain on a right tackle’s outside shoulder. That is just crazy given his size.
With Defensive linemen- you always have the “fat boy” factor to worry about. It seems like every year, there is at least one DT among the top selected who eats his self out of shape, can’t stay conditioned, or simply becomes a lazy “on/off switch” player. A Shaun Rogers-type. A guy with all the ability in the world who only plays when he wants. While I understand this, I don’t understand how pundits would logically label this concern as one with which we should worry ourselves in regards to Poe. Generally, lazy fat boys don’t show up and do what Poe did at the Combine. That shows work ethic, and any scout will tell you that how you prepare for draft season is a HUGE indicator their staffs use in projecting adaptability to the physical demands of NFL preparation and execution processes when this becomes your day job.
If you turn on the tape, two things can’t be denied.
1) Memphis was a horrible defense last year. I think they got a few people fired they were so bad.
2) Poe was a diamond in that rough, constantly (like constantly) facing double teams and sometimes triple teams. He was still a run-stopping force and never showed any uncharacteristic lack off motor other than at times appearing gassed (just like every other defensive linemen in the NFL will appear multiple times during games.)
I understand that LSU’s Michael Brockers is a beast as well. It it isn’t often you see a man with arms this long use them in such explosive fashion- and I was quite scared standing next to him as well:
But Poe just has “it”. His bend, lateral ability, and most impressively- the degree control over his center of gravity indicating tremendous core strength were so evident that scouts called his workouts “Suh-Like”. I feel it was enough to single-handedly answer all of the questions people may have had regarding Poe as a prospect. There are a few, and I could address them, but I feel like Dontari did a good job on his own of doing so at his combine media interview: (He was one of the more intelligent, confident players I had the opportunity to interview, and sources with 2 teams told me he was great in team meetings.)
Drills at combine – I’m doing everything. It’s just competition. I like it. I like it all. I’ve been working out for it and just thought it’d be a good idea to do it all.
Working out – Competition and I’ve been training at API in Arizona. I feel pretty good about it.
I’m not hurt. I don’t have any injuries.
Interviews – I haven’t really talked to anyone yet. I’ve just been focusing on this day, on the combine.
Any idea which teams might have an interest – Not yet. I’ve just been focusing on this aspect. I’m thinking that will work itself out.
Compared to Casey Hampton – It’s a great feeling because everyone knows he’s a great player, Pro Bowl-caliber player. He has been for a long time in the NFL. To be compared to him is a positive.
Type of DT in the NFL – I see myself as someone who can rush the passer a lot more than people think. I am used to playing nose tackle and the 3-technique and I’ve played some 5-technique. I’m pretty comfortable anywhere on the defensive line.
Type of player – I think I’m explosive, very explosive. That’s probably my biggest strength. Most people think just because I’m big I do nothing but power (inaudible) you, things like that. I try to use my quickness to my advantage.
Important for a DT to rush the passer – Yeah. It’s become more important because the NFL is becoming a passing league. But if you can’t stop the run you’re in a pretty bad situation. You have to be able to do both.
What do you need to work on – Just overall consistency. I need to maintain my level of play throughout the course of a whole game. That’s probably the biggest thing.
You followed Casey Hampton – I’ve always followed him. I’m pretty into football a lot. D-tackles, I look at them a lot. Being one of the best as he has been for a long time, I followed him for a long time.
Other D-tackles – Him, I like Ndamukong Suh. I think he’s very aggressive. Haloti Ngata. A lot of defensive tackles in this day and age are very good, which forces us to kind of step our game up.
Playing in a 3-4 or a 4-3 – Really I’m used to both. We played both in college. Either or would probably be good for me. I’m comfortable playing either or. It’s really not a big deal.
What do teams want – I don’t really know yet. Most people kind of see me as a 3-4 nose tackle, which is cool with me because I like that position as well. I like to think that I’m versatile and I can play multiple positions.
5-technique experience at Memphis – In all our three-downs ’cause our end got hurt. It forced me to move out. My coach told me I had to learn the position. It felt pretty comfortable. It wasn’t anything abnormal. I’m pretty used to it.
Casey Hampton – He’s aggressive. He’s one of the more aggressive defensive tackles this league has seen. His hand strength. One he gets his hands on you, he kind of controls you. That’s probably what I admire most about him.
How many reps in bench press – I’m going to try to go for 40 reps.
Combine/NFL always a dream? – Yeah. It’s always been a dream. Back in high school we used to look at it and think it was so far away. But now at the end of my college career and getting this opportunity, it’s a blessing and it’s a dream come true. But it’s also a job and a business. It has become a reality. I’m getting used to it as I go.
You know your way around a weight room – Yeah, a little bit. I love the weight room. It’s something I got into in high school because people always used to say college players are way bigger, faster, stronger. When you get to college, they say the NFL is way bigger, faster, stronger. I never let up on it. I’m self, intrinsically motivated to do it. Football is the most fun part about it.
Playing weight around 345 – Yeah, I feel comfortable at it. If a team that I go to wants me to go down, that’s no problem either. I can do that. I feel comfortable. (Last year) I played at around 340, 346 to about 351. Just what a team needs I can do it.
Why Memphis – I’m from Memphis. Born and raised in Memphis. I kind of felt like it would be the best decision for me at that time to stay at home and go to that school. For my family to be able to see me play each and every Saturday I thought it was a blessing and it turned out to be a blessing in disguise.
Other offers – Yes sir I did. I got offers from the big schools, but some things happened and I chose to go to Memphis.
Hard to get noticed playing at Memphis – I think it speaks for itself. People say you have to go to a big school to get noticed, but the NFL is a broad league so they’ll find talent wherever it is. I didn’t think that was a big problem.
Possibility of playing with Houston Texans and Wade Phillips – It would be good, too. I’m here to play in the NFL. That’s my biggest thing.
It’s been a dream for so long that wherever I go I will work my hardest. I will give my all.

Poe filled our only true need on Defense and with his size , strength and Crennels coaching he's going to be a huge upgrade for our defense.HUGE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyong Bluth (Post 8582482)

Found this on RosterWatch:

That's a great read. Looks like he has the right attitude, work ethic. I figured he was just a big ass idiot. I'm impressed and liking the pic more and more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hog Farmer (Post 8582487)

That's a great read. Looks like he has the right attitude, work ethic. I figured he was just a big ass idiot. I'm impressed and liking the pic more and more.

You must have found out he has adept hands with pigs.

;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frankie (Post 8582490)

You must have found out he has adept hands with pigs.

;)

in mid air!!!

I'm not sure if I'm beginning to rationalize the pick or just suffering from beaten wife syndrome. My absolute worst case scenario pick has come to pass, now all I can do is hope my initial impressions and horror were misplaced. I will say after reading his comments I feel much better about his not being Vernon Gholston V2.

i Hated the pick on Thursday, his college stats vs a weak schedule just dont match his combine workout.
now i'm just hoping Romeo can get him fired up on the field.

College doesn't matter any more at this point, in any case. It's all about what happens going forward now.

Of all the observations on Poe, the one I find the most telling and might actually predict the future success/bust of Poe comes from Whitlock of all people and his comment (although probably not based on any first hand info) was that Poe didn't strike him as a kid that loves playing football.

"But Poe just has “it”. His bend, lateral ability, and most impressively- the degree control over his center of gravity indicating tremendous core strength were so evident that scouts called his workouts “Suh-Like”. I feel it was enough to single-handedly answer all of the questions people may have had regarding Poe as a prospect."

okay, here's where the hype is. "indicating tremendous core strength" is not what you want from a 1st rd DL choice and it is an excuse for a player who played a lot of college football.

comparing Poe to Suh is just plain stupid.

I don't see the football smarts in this player at all and that is something Suh had in spades during college. Poe has no techniques that are developed. no hand techniques, no leverage techniques. is this because he was constantly shuffled down the DL or because he doesn't understand the game there? we shall soon find out.

I don't buy the "he wasn't coached well" excuse, not for basic DL techniques like leverage and hand combat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyong Bluth (Post 8582469)

Only issue I have with that argument is that Cox, Brockers, and Ngata put up those numbers against power conference teams (SEC and PAC-12). Poe put his numbers up against C-USA and below teams. But if he pans out none of that will matter. I do hope he does so that way we can forget about the NT position for many years to come.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan (Post 8582524)

"But Poe just has “it”. His bend, lateral ability, and most impressively- the degree control over his center of gravity indicating tremendous core strength were so evident that scouts called his workouts “Suh-Like”. I feel it was enough to single-handedly answer all of the questions people may have had regarding Poe as a prospect."

okay, here's where the hype is. "indicating tremendous core strength" is not what you want from a 1st rd DL choice and it is an excuse for a player who played a lot of college football.

comparing Poe to Suh is just plain stupid.

I don't see the football smarts in this player at all and that is something Suh had in spades during college. Poe has no techniques that are developed. no hand techniques, no leverage techniques. is this because he was constantly shuffled down the DL or because he doesn't understand the game there? we shall soon find out.

I don't buy the "he wasn't coached well" excuse, not for basic DL techniques like leverage and hand combat.

Comparing anyone to Suh is stupid. He is a once in a generation freak D-Lineman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tredadda (Post 8582544)

Comparing anyone to Suh is stupid. He is a once in a generation freak D-Lineman.

Yep. Furthermore, Suh & Poe are completely different players asked to different things.

All we need Poe to do is essentially take up space, don't get pushed backwards and/or push the center back, allow the everybody else to clean up.

He has the size & strength to do that. Now lets see if Romeo can get him to do it.

He's not going to register a ton of tackles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suds79 (Post 8582549)

Exactly. Don't need him to put up jaw dropping stats, just do his job so our LBs can.

Some solid points & I dont think anyone doesn't know the kids gonna need some serious coaching & time to adjust to step up the Pro learning curve. But, if the reputation of our coaches ability to improve dline players isn't just a bunch of fluff & overhyped, then you've got a guy that has the raw talents not seen by a NT in over 1/2 a decade. Sure, he's not gonna come in and be Suh Pt.II from day 1, but lets also realize that he probably wasn't getting great coaching & instruction while being asked to jump all over the line bc as he said injuries forced him to fill in bc they had no one else to play the end even though he'd never played it nor was it his natural position.

Don't we all agree that a lot of NT's don't post glamour numbers so that's a tough guide to measure them by?

The reality was he was the only guy any team would focus on as he didn't have any other guys on the D that were even close to an NFL talent. If you're a solo act esp at that position, that's a tough spot to expect him to shine when he's playing nonstop and being keyed in on on every play. I know people on here bitched and moaned about lack of complimentary players on our D for Hali bc teams could really limit his effectiveness bc he was the only legit threat to opposing offenses..

Not sure what was mentioned in the article doesn't carry any weight as the skills and physical makeup is often highlighted in terms of identifying a prototypical NT - which is why people felt Dorsey & Jackson really didn't fit that mold for our D needs.

I'll also disagree & say I'm more enthused by the chances of him working out when listening to his answers & find his attitude encouraging.

As for Whitlock- I enjoy his takes & all, but he hasn't any more insight into Poe than anyone else that knows how to go check out YouTube. Did he watch him live this last season, or what special access did he have that makes his opinion any more valid other than typical JWhit "keepin' it real" & in this case all the way from California where he's setup shop for his FS podcast as his primary spot that he spends his majority of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefsfootballfan (Post 8582524)

I honestly don't know much about this guy, except for what I have briefly scanned on this board over the weekend. But, if he is to be our NT, well, he definately has the size. And if he eats 2 and 3 blockers at a time, I don't care if he ever even whiffs the QB, that's not his job. Leave that to the DE's and OLB's.

Let's hope he turns out to be awesome, and not, as mentioned in another thread, Ryan Simms part II.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaplin42 (Post 8582564)

Trying to remember. Wasn't Ryan Simms a late camp hold out? Seems like that always hurted a guys development.

Quote:

With Defensive linemen- you always have the “fat boy” factor to worry about. It seems like every year, there is at least one DT among the top selected who eats his self out of shape, can’t stay conditioned, or simply becomes a lazy “on/off switch” player. A Shaun Rogers-type. A guy with all the ability in the world who only plays when he wants. While I understand this, I don’t understand how pundits would logically label this concern as one with which we should worry ourselves in regards to Poe. Generally, lazy fat boys don’t show up and do what Poe did at the Combine. That shows work ethic, and any scout will tell you that how you prepare for draft season is a HUGE indicator their staffs use in projecting adaptability to the physical demands of NFL preparation and execution processes when this becomes your day job.
If you turn on the tape, two things can’t be denied.
1) Memphis was a horrible defense last year. I think they got a few people fired they were so bad.
2) Poe was a diamond in that rough, constantly (like constantly) facing double teams and sometimes triple teams. He was still a run-stopping force and never showed any uncharacteristic lack off motor other than at times appearing gassed (just like every other defensive linemen in the NFL will appear multiple times during games.)

I'm not sure exactly what they're basing some of these opinions on. From all the game tape I've seen of Poe, there was a great deal of on/off motor. Some plays he would chase the RB across the field, and other plays he'd just stand there and watch from the other side of the pile.

And the author points to his amazing Combine workout as proof that he's not an on/off type player because "Generally, lazy fat boys don’t show up and do what Poe did at the Combine. That shows work ethic". I don't really agree with that. Work ethic is best shown by working hard all the time, not just when you're trying out for a job at the next level. Pointing to one workout and ignoring all the lackluster game tape that came before that is the exact opposite of how you show your overall work ethic.

meh. I'm over my hissy fit. I hope he pounds faces in. He can start with Ryan's....but most importantly Manning's.

I don't remember reading all of these articles justifying a draft pick when Berry was drafted.

I am betting he will suck for us or gets injured, that way I can happy if he does well.
Man being a fan of this team for so long is frustrating. Oh 93, my first year of jr. High, I remember you fondy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiefnj2 (Post 8582606)

I don't remember reading all of these articles justifying a draft pick when Berry was drafted.

Yeah, funny how that works.

I just want to see him succeed. He'll have no lack in motivation this year with everyone talking shit about him. I do think there is something to be said about a guy who is 350lbs playing every snap of every game and still taking tackling angles to the Carrier on the far side of the field. I'm not so sure his worth is all wrapped up into statistics like some people think. In a quick-pass spread conference, I'm pretty sure it would be difficult for a big man to get many tackles at all, and how bad memphis was in every statistical category is pretty telling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valiant (Post 8582614)

That's because 99% of the people on this board had 6ft boners for picking Berry after USC's safety was deemed not better or equal to Berry. But there was def. Articles second guessing if picking him that high was smart because of how much you would end up paying him as an unproven Pro & he'd be making more than Ed Reed. CP thought he was totally worth it, but there was some doubt by national media of taking a S that high. Not arguing that Berry was a more proven and safer pick, but he was taken much higher & commanded a much larger contract. As I said before, the guy wasn't a pick that I was eager for, but with the draft slot, new rookie salary scale, and possible upside at the position we most need on D & I won't damn the pick bc its a gamble that if it pays off positions this team for greatness - he'll, if we suck this year maybe we can get into the QB sweepstakes for next years draft & finally address our biggest problem on offense with a guy like Barkley.

I hope on the first defensive play from scrimmage vs Denver Poe does a belly flop on Manning's face so hard he looks like Rocky Dennis and makes Cher and the other bikers cry.

Not excited about the Poe pick, but if they'd picked Barron (if they could have), if they'd picked Brockers, if they'd picked Decastro, there would be as much complaining about those picks. Barron was being compared to Bernard Pollard on this board, Brockers' comparison was obvious, Decastro wouldn't have been a good value at 11. Poe's a big risk, but so what? Like nearly any other draft pick, if he pans out, nobody's going to care where he was picked. If he doesn't, we'll talk about what we missed out on with the benefit of hindsight.

"But Poe just has “it”. "

This is the impression I got and with Crennel as a mentor his transition to pro ball should be quick. I wouldn't be surprised if RC builds an addition to his house to keep an eye on him. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by KC Fish (Post 8582589)

How much "game tape" have you seen?

His work ethic is obvious in the weight room. Coaches at Memphis said work ethic wasn't a problem. Romeo and Pioli didn't seem to think it was a problem.

Work ethic is not an issue. If it was, he probably would have quit on those shitty Memphis teams. He didn't. He played even when he was gassed. He played wherever the coaches asked him to play.

Seems pretty coachable and hardworking to me.

Not many 350lb defensive lineman can play every snap of a game. It would be a miracle if Poe didn't "dog it" on some plays.

Based on very limited youtube clips the problem wasn't a drop in his production as the game went on. He pretty much looked the same in the first series as he did later in the game.