How does Dwayne Bowe rank among the elite WR's?
 

Sorry, didn't want this getting overlooked in the other thread. Then again, people will probably ignore it anyway - I know some of you will appreciate this.


I keep seeing people say that Dwayne Bowe isn't an elite WR. So I decided to do some research to see how he matches up statistically over his 5 years in the league.

What I found, is that statistically, Bowe is the 10th best WR of the last 5 years.

I found 9 other WR's that either had better yardage totals, better TD numbers or both. He was 10th in yardage, tied for 6th in TD's.

Here's the list. (Yardage/TD's) Bolded players have fewer or same TD's as Bowe.


Larry Fitzgerald - 6480/49

Roddy White - 6422/42

Reggie Wayne - 6234/36

Wes Welker - 6105/31

Calvin Johnson - 5872/49

Andre Johnson - 5703/35

Greg Jennings - 5539/46

Steve Smith - 5353/29

Marques Colston - 5202/40

Dwayne Bowe - 4927/36


Personally, I think that's impressive on its own.

Especially when you consider the only guy on this list who is younger is Megatron. I'd be curious to see how he matches up to the same players during each of their first 5 seasons.

Anyway, when you compare Bowe's number's to the #1 yardage and #1 TD's - he's not nearly as far off as it seems.

It comes down to 19.41 yard a game, and .16 TD's per game.

Factor in that Bowe is missing something the other 9 have - solid QB play.

After looking at this, its hard for me to say Dwayne Bowe is NOT an elite WR, considering how his numbers match up to the "elite" and never having the benefit of decent QB play.

I'm pretty confident in saying that with solid QB play, Bowe would easily make up 19.41 yards and .16 TD's a game.

Like him or not, he's an elite WR - and has shown it over his 5 years in the league.

Dude deserved elite money.

Or, tl;dr - **** him.

http://i.imgur.com/oIgnj.gif

Notice the QBs throwing to the others on that list and then wonder what kind of #'s Bowe COULD be putting up with even an average one.

Yep. I remember starting a thread about it after the Indy game last year how he arrived at elite status. Look at the shit he's had throwing him the ball. Special player that the team needs to lock up and pay accordingly.

Your tl:dr made me lmao
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New trend: eleventy billion Bowe threads replace eleventy billion Cassel threads.

Exactly. We need to make a list of the other WR's on the list and put the QB's they've played with over that period. A guarantee not a single one of them would have played with the parade of turds Bowe has.

It's good to shake it up every now and again.

I'd give my left nut and kcnuts right nut for a real qb.

Yes, Bowe is about 10th best in the league, and should be paid as such.

How long before Pioli or Hunt drop the "small market team" rhetoric on us?

The last two seasons he's #6 on the same list.

Who do you have ahead of him? Just curious.

Well..... blither blather ignorance dropped passes! What about that? /idiot Bowe critics

Larry Fitzgerald - Warner

Roddy White - Ryan

Reggie Wayne - Manning

Wes Welker - Brady

Calvin Johnson - Stafford

Andre Johnson - Schaub

Greg Jennings - Rodgers

Steve Smith - Newton, Delhomme

Marques Colston - Brees

Dwayne Bowe - Huard, Thigpen, Croyle, Palko, Cassel



This kid has made chicken salad out of chicken shit consistently.

Smith and Fitzgerald have played with some shit as well. Fitz had Warner for a couple years but since then its been anything but pretty. Smith finally got someone last year.

That list of QB's (if you want to call them that) is the saddest list I've seen, EVAR!!!

Holy shit, that's sad. You should add that to the OP....

I've always thought Jake Delhomme was fairly shitty. Almost Cassellian.

Steve Smith was awesome.

by bringing qb play into the mix, it makes Bowe the most elite wr, despite the drops in crucial moments.

it's not realistic.

They were talking on ESPN about the top players that had been franchised and either got a new deal or didn't and he was pretty much an afterthought. That may play into some (braindead) folk's perception of him.

:facepalm:


In the interest of absolute fairness, Fitz, Megatron, and Steve Smith had to deal with some shitty QB play as well, before their situation got worked out.

Seriously. What would Bowe's numbers look like if he had Brees, Rodgers, or Brady throwing to him?

I'd like to see how many more times those guys were targeted, since the Chiefs don't exactly throw it as much as some of these other teams.


More targets = more yards, more TDs, and more planeteers bitching about more drops.

C.Johnson
White
A. Johnson
Fitzgerald
Welker
Green
S. Smith
(around here they start to lump together, including Bowe, V.Jackson, Marshall, Nelson, Wallace)

I'm not insulting Bowe. I'd put him in the grouping between 7-10 or 11. I love Bowe, but I don't remember anyone trying to make the case he's one of the very best in the league until now.

I agree completely. The people saying he should get paid like Colston or Jackson are insane. Bowe put up better numbers than Jackson and equal to Colston with Cassel. Colston had Brees and Jackson had Rivers. Enough said.

And personally I would take Bowe easily over Smith, Colston, and Welker. I would say it is a toss up with White, Wayne, and Jennings. With Fitz, A. Johnson, and C. Johnson being the only ones clearly better and deserving of more money.

I was thinking along these lines also. When you've trotted out the shit we have at WR, year after year, of course our number one will have really high numbers. I'm not saying he's not good, but if I'm choosing between throwing to Bowe or Boe....richter, I'll take D-Rain Bowe.

The Gospel of Welker, the 12th chapter:

In the afternoon Tom rode into Foxboro on a Bentley, where he met with his disciples and practiced at the stadium. A prosperous receiver named Deion approached him and said, "QB, see that I have faithfully stood by you this long while, and did catch your passes in important games, earning Super Bowls. My faith in you is strong! I will pray to your Father Belichick for a long term contract and more money, so that we might continue to do good works!" But Tom waved his hand and said, "Foolish receiver, have you not understood anything I have taught you? Go out and seek your large contract if you value it more than your faith in me!" And so Deion did leave Foxboro and found a large contract in the land of Seattle, where his faith was troubled and he did lose many games.

Seeing what just took place, an even more prosperous receiver named Randy, desiring to earn favor with the QB after having already found his large contract, approached the QB and said, "QB, see that I have acquired many statistics over a long and prosperous career, and see that my skills are still sharp and have not waned. Bestow upon me half of your blessed throws, and I will make you the undisputed greatest quarterback in the history of man!" But Tom waved his hand and said, "Get behind me, Satan, for your motivations are not out of devotion to me and my Father, but for your own earthly cred and swag!" And so Randy was taken out of the stadium and banished to the land of Minnesota, where he did squander his talent and skills, and lose all of his cred and swag.

However, a poor undrafted receiver named Julian was afraid of Tom. He spoke to him saying, "QB, I have no skills, and my skin is pale white. I have no swag and no cred. But I will follow you and will always love you, and I will do everything asked of me by your Father on the sideline, even play special teams and reserve cornerback." Tom looked upon Julian and smiled. He said, "Child, your faith has become your cred and swag. You are now strong, and will receive my blessings on primetime regular season games and in the playoffs. Go now and catch my throws."

Good news spread of this moment, and soon Deion did return to Foxboro seeking the forgiveness of Tom, and it was granted. Deion did no longer seek his large contract, seeing his faith in Tom as sufficient for his success. And he was blessed and did play in another Super Bowl.

The Gospel of Welker. Glory to the Patriot Way.

Fitz - Josh McCown, Matt Leinart, Kurt Warner, Derek Anderson, Kevin Kolb, Josh Skelton.

He really only had Warner for 2 years. The first 3 Warner was there he was injured, replaced, or Leinart was starting.

Other than those 2 years it's a list of shit.

Smith - Jake Delhomme, Vinny Testaverde, David Carr, Matt Moore, Jimmy Clausen, Cam Newton.

I was just looking at that, except I was looking at total yards divided by targets to come up with avg yards per target.

DB comes to 8.2 yards per target last season.

Fitz is at 9.2 PT

R White at 7.1

Welker at 9.1

Calvin J at 10.6

Steve S at 10.8

This team blows dog chunks. 6 months to get a deal done and they don't do shit. Cheapskates.

So what's the avg pay per year of those guys and how much was Bowe asking for?

Jake Delhomme had a pretty good Matt Schaubish career for several years, and that's when he put up his best numbers. Delhomme and Cassel/Huard aren't comparable in the least.

pioli gave Cassel $60 mill for nothing...literally nothing, and has watched him perform in the bottom 5th of all QBs, with no repercussions

but Bowe once flexed his muscles on tv, so he has to go...too risky, who cares if he is a guaranteed 1000+ yard WR...

Calvin Johnson - John Kitna, Dan Orvlosky, Dante Culpepper, Drew Stanton, Shaun Hill, Matthew Stafford.

Last season was Staffords first full season.

We are only counting the years that Bowe has been in the league. Delhomme was terrible.

AJ Green? Are you serious?

I'm beginning to hate this franchise. They aren't commited to winning it all. They get cheap, every ****ing time it comes to pay up big signing bonus money.

Its in the OP

All that really matters is that Bowe has been, and could have been, an elite receiver for KC for years to come. Even with a different system every year and a revolving door of poor QBs, he has produced.

Dumb-asses better not say that his numbers aren't impressive, or can be had by any other player, because they haven't been achieved in KC since Otis Taylor.

I'd say that list is accurate although Steve Smith is past his prime and I haven't seen enough of Green yet, although the potential is there.

I'd rather just see pure targets.

Too many factors go into the yards generated.

Such as QB play.

ROFL That's a riot.


Of course, Welker is franchised this year, and it may be his last in Foxboro. It's the Patriot Way though. You gotta love that it works, but hate it when it costs you someone like Welker... :shrug:

It's great at bilking the Hunts out of a couple hundred mil.

Yes the numbers could be cleaner but it also factors in drops.

It works because of Tom ****ing Brady. Only damn reason.

Not a single one of you mother****ers know what Pioli has offered Bowe, and not a single one of you mother****ers know what Bowe was asking for.

And yet here you all sit, wailing like a bunch of braying jackasses about how unfairly little boweby has been treated.

Quite the drafturbater circle jerk you have going on here...

By far the worst thing about Pioli here (other than losing) is having Pat trolls tell us how great his way is.

Doesn't matter.

He is crucial to our team because of our QB situation and lack of receivers.

SOMEONE is going to pay him, if it's not us, we failed.

I'm talking about what goes on in Foxboro.

Then don't call it the Patriot Way.

Call it Tom Brady.

There's no question he's a damn big part of it. Can't go to five Super Bowls in 11 years without him, no question.

But the philosophy of how the Patriots are run is a sound one. Fans hate to lose guys like Willie McGinest, Deion Branch, Asante Samuel, Ty Law and Richard Seymour, but I've seen teams in cap hell, and I've heard about teams that are run by a few guys in the locker room, and I'll take what Belichick has installed at Gillette, thanks.

Bill Polian and Peyton Manning didn't get to FIVE Super Bowls and they had more years together than the Patriots have had with Brady. Oh wait, in fact, NO COACH/QB COMBO EVER has gone to five Super Bowls. Sure, we lost two while leading in the final minutes, but still, it's a helluva accomplishment. Brady is the engine, no question, but you need tires, high octane gasoline, aerodynamics, etc. etc. as well.

or else you end up being Dan Marino...

See my next post.

You can't win championships in the NFL without a very good /great QB. That is a given. The question is how do you put the team in the best position to win every year, with or without that great quarterback.

Peyton Manning has gone to two SBs in 14 years (or whatever) while frequently being in a relatively soft division. Marino went to one. Favre went to, what, two? Brees one (so far). Rodgers one (so far). Vick zero. McNabb one. Rivers zero.

It takes more than Brady to get to the Super Bowl.

Don't know how great Pioli's way is. I don't pay enough attention to what he does, to be honest.

You are missing the point. Some are suggesting he is an elite receiver who deserves elite money. If he was offered that he would have signed but he clearly was not offered that. He doesn't necessarily deserve Johnson, Johnson or Fitzgerald money but the next level I think is appropriate.

My son, you have sinned.

Go forth and draft three 5-technique DTs in the first round, and throw 10 hail marys to Dexter McCluster!

You know this how? Link?

Roddy White had 175 targets last year. Wes Welker had 169.

In 2010, Reggie Wayne had 172, White had 167, Fitz had 168.

Bowe had 130 last year and 125 the year before.

Give him a QB and put him in an offense that's designed to be modern and he'd put up 1500, easily.

I would support this model as well. As much as I love Bowe, I'd tell him to go **** himself on his big money if we had Tom Brady at QB.

That slight difference is HUGE in comparing the systems. The Chiefs rely on stiffing their good players on new contracts. So do the Patriots. The difference is that the Patriots don't need Bowe, Seymour, Carr, or even Brian Waters. We do.

And that's when an efficient system becomes severely inefficient.

Do you realize what you get if you take Roddy White's targets, and plug in Bowe's catch percentage and yards per catch?

109 catches, 1,559 yards.

Now do it for 2010:

96 catches, 1,548 yards.

Mother**** you, Scott Pioli.

And FWIW, Roddy White dropped 15 balls last year and 9 in 2010.

I figured I'd get back from running errands and see someone attempt to make this argument.

He only had Warner for 2 years? Seriously?

He could have had Warner for TWO GAMES and the level of QB play he's received would be heads and ****ing shoulders above what Bowe has gotten.

Delhomme? Dude's thrown for 20,000+ yards in this league, and has a 300+ 3/0 game in a losing effort in the Super Bowl.

Only a Grade A fool would even attempt to compare the QB play Fitz and Smith have gotten to what Bowe has gotten.

Fitz and Smith have played with some shit QB's.

Bowe has played with nothing but shit QB's.

Thanks for confirming your ignorance.

if he didn't drop so many balls he'd probably be in the top five...

The Chiefs can use a first rounder on a WR in 2013. After he gets acclimated for a year or two, then Cassel will have no excuses!

Top 10

I'd give him $40m guaranteed

Yeah, but Tony Mo figures to get injured again this year. He needs a true #1 TE. Probably two. Tom Brady has them, so it's really unfair to expect Cassel to win playoff games without an equal supporting cast.

I know that you are trolling, but Bowe's catch percentage last season was a whopping 1.3 percent lower than Calvin Johnson's. Bowe was 8th out of 32 receivers, Calvin was 5th.

You actually gain a lot of insight into how good Bowe is if you shorten the list of receivers. In what was a "disappointing year" for Bowe according to some, with horrible QB play, out of the top 32 receivers Bowe was 6th in pass rating. There were only 3 guys in the league who were more than 1 point ahead of him.

The "list" by the way is sorted by highest percentage of snaps played.

Some incredible statistics are being reported in this thread.

I wonder if Bowe's agent slapped Scott upside the head with these when he made his big offers.

Yeah, probably

Bowe also forced 13 missed tackles last season. That was pretty near the top.

Now multiply that by the difference between Bowe's targets and Roddy White's.

Bowe would lead the league in missed tackles forced.

Ya... Delhomme was a real ****ing stud when Bowe entered the league.

I forgot Bowe was drafted in 2003.

Way to miss the point.

As usual.

Rofl.

Get shit on and then walk backwards.

Fitz put up one of his best years last year, without Warner.

Please explain how I've been shit on, much less walked backwards in this thread.

I'll wait, genius.

Again:

And yet he was still targeted 21 more times than Bowe.

And had a catch percentage that was almost 10 points LOWER.

If you take Fitz's targets and plug in Bowe's catch percentage and yards per catch, Bowe finishes with 1,345 yards to Fitz's 1,411.

You can throw all the evidence you want at this one.

He's either a troll, lacks basic intelligence, or both.

Sometimes stats are worthless and one should just look at game tape.

Bowe rapes people on the field. Period. No other WR does what he does the way he does it.

Pay him.

He is a ****ing idiot.

Because taking some elses stats and plugging in Bowes is evidence.

You gonna take Bowe over Fitzgerald? Or even pay Bowe as much as Fitzgerald. Please...

That's putting it nicely.

Do you understand how logic works?

The Chiefs don't throw the ball very much, so Bowe is targeted less than guys like Roddy White.

Logic follows that if the Chiefs threw the ball more, Bowe would have more targets....and therefore produce even better numbers, assuming he maintains the same rate of catch percentage and yards per catch.

Cliffs: If Bowe played in an offense that threw the ball around a bit, instead of being 29th in the league in pass attempts, he would have monster ****ing numbers.

The guy has been a Top 10 WR in yardage over his career and Top 6 in scoring - all while being handicapped by the QB and the play calling.

He's an elite WR as he stands.

Imagine what he'd be with the same benefits the other 9 guys have.

Can't pay him though, and cut into Clark's kids trust fund.

There is no "Patriot ****ing Way".

There is a great coach and a great QB. And a little tag-a-long named Scott who thought he could reinvent the wheel elsewhere.

Which happens to NOT be something new and great in the history of the NFL.

Yessssss, dumbasses; let it sink in!

Is the defense still stacking the box playing purely against the run if the Chiefs threw the ball around like the Packers?