Quarterback Tournament: Somewhere in the Finals (Final Eight)
 

You know the drill. One game to win it all. Which quarterback do you pick from each matchup?

My thoughts:

Game 1: Clearly the least strong matchup as I'd rank these guys 6th and 7th of the Final Eight. But hey, that's how the cards shook out, and greatest is part skill, part luck, and part timing. I'm seriously not an enormous fan of Aikman, so I'll go Dawson. Dawson never had a top running back behind him unless you count a couple of years of Mike Garrett. Aikman had Emmitt Smiff his whole career.

Game 2. I hate to vote against Warner because he's one of my all-time favorite non-Chiefs QBs, but what can you say? In one game, you want Montana at the helm.

Game 3. Favre. And I'm not even that crazy about Favre. But Elway's peak years were essentially when he was the second banana handing off to Terrell Owens. In Favre's peak, he was winning Super Bowls with guys like Dorsey Levens lining up behind him.

Game 4. Rings vs. stats. I'll go with rings, even though I'll admit that Manning deserves to be in the top tier of consideration. Brady gets my vote.

He handed off to Terrell Davis a bunch too

Even more powerful of an indictment.

And Joe Montana had the greatest football player of all time to throw to.

So yeah you have to have talent.

What about all those SBs John carried those teams to? Hate that he was a Donk but his skill set makes him the best IMO.

Yep.

I hate to say it but Elway is the GOAT.

The receiver can't be the greatest without a great quarterback. The running back just needs the quarterback to get out of the way.

You people are killing me with this Elway thing. Killing me!

Dawson, Montana, Fav-Ray, and Brady. Puck Failway.

Right. Not saying Montana isn't great himself. To me he's #2.

But Elway is #1. Just my opinion. Is it possible for us not to be biased against him because he was a Bronco?

It was merely my counter to any body that points out that John didn't win it all until he had Davis. I can simply counter with look at all the talent Joe had.

Rice, Craig, Lott (I'm sure several others I'm forgetting). Those teams were absolutely loaded.

This so so frustrating when I hear this, NO HE IS NOT! He played the GOAT on the biggest stage in the world 55-10 55-10 55-10. Did the Broncos have 37 dropped passes? How many possessions did Elway have? How many drives did he fail on? Plus there is another head to head matchup that Elway had at home and Montana still took him to school with a clearly inferior team (really JJ Birden and Willie Davis?). Elway was a slightly better Marino, he a was a loser just like Marino until Bowlen cheated the shit out of the cap and gave him a ridiculous team to carry him. Montana 4-0 in SB, Elway 0-4 until the cheating came in.

Brady is better than Elway and if Eli and Big Ben notch a couple more SB wins they will surpass him also in most peoples eyes.

More importantly, the 3 teams Elway took to the Super Bowl before Shanahan/Davis were NOT loaded.

Elway could just a little better numbers to back him up. I had to go with Favre.

The other thing that no one seems to be able to factor into the equation is how much of those "loaded" 49ers teams were due to Montana himself elevating everyone around him? Will we ever really know if Marvin Harrison was that great of a receiver? No, because he had Manning putting the ball right on his god damn numbers during his entire career. Look at how many no-name receivers Favre and Brady have had over the years that looked spectacular but became nobodies when they wen't somewhere else.

How good were Brent Jones, Roger Craig, and John Taylor? We will never really know as they had the true GOAT feeding them the ball. You could also include Rice in this discussion too, take any receiver in the top ten all time receiving stats and have Montana/Young throwing them the ball their entire careers. No doubt if you had swapped Tim Brown and Rice's teams, we'd be calling Tim Brown the best receiver of all time.

Look at how good Bowe's career numbers have been thus far, imagine if he was drafted by Pats/Indy and didn't have to deal with Huard/Thigpen/Cassel's shit passes.

The same can be said for Elway.

Steve Young helps prove to some extent how good those teams where.

Fantastic rebuttal sir, the only problem is that everytime this question comes up it's "49ers were absolutely loaded, Elway did it with shit teams". Which is a bunch of BS, if Elway had such crappy teams he wouldn't have gone to 4 SBs and gotten his ass kicked in all of them.

He is a legit hall of fame QB smart guy, you need a Dilfer to help you argue your point, Young is no where close and was an amazing QB in his own right.

Peyton beats out Brady if Peyton was still in Indy.

Looks like we're talking to a brick wall.

Same could be said for you. Did you actually think about anything or reconsider your stance? I'll make it simple... 4-0 vs 0-4, can you honestly tell me if you had the choice of either QB to start in a SB you would take Elway? Didn't think so.

Also please expand on 55-10 when they met head to head on the biggest stage with both in the prime of their careers?

In Elway's first ten years in the league, he threw 158 touchdowns and 157 interceptions. In five of those years he threw more interceptions than touchdowns.

In Elway's first ten years in the league, he had a quarterback rating over 80 in only one year.

In Elway's first ten years in the league, he had a top-ten defense supporting him in five years.

Elway's career rating in Super Bowls is 59.3.

You guys want to pick him for a one-game playoff? Go right ahead and I'll take home the prize, just like most of his big-game opponents. The guy couldn't even stop the band in his last game at Stanford.

Elway forced himself onto a team that had been in the Super Bowl six years earlier, and had posted a 50-33 record in those six years. Unlike PManning, Bradshaw, Brady, Montana, and other great quarterbacks, he didn't join a weak team that needed rebuilding. He forced himself onto a consistent playoff team. The only other quarterback in the conversation who had that advantage was Marino, but Marino did it fair and square by having a hurt shoulder and falling in the draft.

Unlike those other quarterbacks, he simply never made those around him better. There's a reason that PManning lifts up Harrison and Clark and Wayne, and Montana lifts up Rice and Taylor and Craig, and Marino lifts up Duper and Clayton, while Elway's receivers never were perceived as anything special. The great quarterbacks created great teammates.

Yep, those don't cut it for me.

Ha, Rain Man delivers the knockout blow. What are you boys going to say to that? You're entranced by the rocket arm...

And the 'great in the clutch part' was mostly because his defense kept games close.

Oh, and I HATE ELWAY! I HATE HIM! He's every person I can't stand. He's the spoiled rich kid who gets whatever he wants. He's the kid who gets to start because he's the coach's son. He's the guy who gets money and fame thrown at him just because he got an early growth spurt and had a tightly wound right shoulder tendon. The only thing that he didn't get was good looks.

He passes the eye test man! The eye test!

Game 1: I voted for Len Dawson although I'm not sure he can make it much further in this competition.

Game 2. Joe Montana did too much over too long of a period for me to vote for the better story guy.

Game 3. John Elway was much better than Brett Favre. He could throw farther, he was more accurate, he was a better runner and he had a bigger... set of teeth. He even cheated better than Favre. The guy was the total package.

Game 4. I don't know what I have against Peyton Manning, but I'd rather have Tom Brady for the big game.

Okay, you're just toying with me now, aren't you?

I have reconsidered my stance and have since changed my mind.

You ask me a year or so ago who would I take #1? I say Montana.

But then I started to think about it. In a way I feel like Joe Montana gets this Michael Jordan treatment. The kind of treatment where they say "He's the best. Always will be." and get p!ssed if you possibly suggest otherwise.

So I thought about it. If all things being equal (team wise). Who would I take?

Both Clutch? Yep. Both accurate? Yep. Both champions? Yep.

Okay. Give me the guy with arguably the greatest skill set ever.

I'm shocked....pleased mind you, but shocked, at the Brady beatdown of Manning. Figured it'd be closer.

Not that I'm complaining mind you...

The 9-4 head to head stat that was all over the TV this weekend probably doesn't hurt.

If this was a wrestling tournament, every round is ending with Montana holding up the bloody, severed head of his opponent.

Let me frame it this way:

Superbowl game, your choice...

P Manning or E Manning
P Manning or T Brady
P Manning or Big Ben

P Manning has a much better skillset than all of the above, but in the SB who is truly the better QB?

Joe Montana
Tom Brady
John Elway
Drew Brees
Johnny Unitas

that's probably your top 5 all time right there

Manning is Marino, the only difference is he happened to get a SB win. Both are pussies when it comes down to it. Brady, Big Ben, and E Manning have that same clutch refuse to lose mentality when it comes down to it in big games. M&M were both regular season superstars.

agree with where you're going but you missed one important fact. P Manning isn't clutch.

John Elway is. That was in my factors I listed below.

Alright people, here it is. Knock it off already:

Even when Elway had the same "stacked team" and won, he still played like shit.

Read every word of this article and tell me Elway is better with a straight face:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/7...te-of-all-time

But for a quarterback it's all about one game: the Super Bowl. And obviously Elway was a stud in the big game, right? Well, let's compare Super Bowl stats between the two.

Elway: five games, 152 attempts, 76 completions, 50% completion, 1,128 yards, three touchdowns, eight interceptions, a 59.3 quarterback rating and two Super Bowl victories.
Montana: four games, 122 attempts, 83 completions, 68% completion, 1,142 yards, 11 touchdowns, zero interceptions, a 127.8 quarterback rating and four Super Bowl victories.

I could not believe it when I calculated those stats. Aside from his last game, Elway wasn't just bad in the Super Bowl, he was god-awful. Montana was just as great as Elway was awful—he shined the brightest in the big game. Montana had more touchdown passes (five) in his last Super Bowl then Elway did in all five of his. Montana never threw a pick in the Super Bowl, while Elway threw at least one in every game. Montana's completion percentage in 18 percent higher and his quarterback rating more than doubles Elway's.

Please god let elway be knocked out this time.

I will contend that if you take those SB head to heads of Montana v Elway that the talent levels between the teams were so great that if they swapped, you'd get the same result. 49ers win.

It is widely accepted that Jerry Rice is the greatest football player ever. Not just at his position. Ever. Honestly you have to factor this in.

Read every word of that article I posted and tell me you would still take Elway. Even when he had the talent of the 9ers teams he played like shit.

Absolutely, I do it ALL THE TIME here.

That wasn't the question. If I had a team that had already made it to the Super Bowl, I might actually start Montana.

But if I had a team that was mediocre in most aspects and I need to GET TO THE SUPER BOWL in the first place, I'd take Elway.

It's a team game. Some of the defenses Montana had in SF were AWESOME.

And there you have the REAL answer at the heart of this argument.

The problem is you've focused completely on the Super Bowl.

Nowhere in the original premise does Rain Man say we should limit our opinion to just Super Bowl performances.

In the year where the 49ers beat the Broncos 55-10, the Broncos had the #1 defense in the league.

Re-read the OP..... you think he was referring to the 2nd preseason game?

montana's first SB team wasn't loaded. dwight clark was above average, but other than that, show me who on that team (other than a good defense) that was above average. seriously.

Probably not. Probably a faulty assumption on my part.

Farve over Elway? O.o

only on a Chiefs ... or Packers forum would this happen.

I bet a Colts forum would do it pretty easily, too. Elway was a colossal bust for that team. It wasn't until his second team that he even got a starting position.

Ha! Good point!

You are a ****ing moron...LMAO

All-time leader, career, game-winning 4th quarter drives :

Dan Marino, FIFTY-****ING-ONE of them...

So you're saying he let his team get behind a lot?

Definite bias on this poll towards more recent QBs. Sammy Baugh, Otto Graham and Johnny Unitas were head and shoulders better than the next best QB in the league in an era where passing was much more difficult. They defined the position.

Originally Posted by COchief
Manning is Marino, the only difference is he happened to get a SB win. Both are pussies when it comes down to it. Brady, Big Ben, and E Manning have that same clutch refuse to lose mentality when it comes down to it in big games. M&M were both regular season superstars.

I am embarrassed for you, go find a poop thread and avoid any further threads with intelligent debate please, for your sake.

I see your point, but you have to consider eras and athleticism. Baugh, Graham, and Unitas never faced down athletes like Deion Sanders, Ed Reed, and so forth. If you put Dick Butkis in today's NFL would he even make the team?

I truly do understand, I will probably be on a message board arguing Brady was the best QB of all time in 40 years to a bunch of 20 somethings that don't even know who he is. Just not really a discussion you can have unless you're on a AARP message board.

Plus what are we supposed to do, go watch entire seasons of 1950s football? We can really only comment on recent QBs, am I supposed to be able to tell if Terry Bradshaw was a good/great/average qb? I was shitting in my diapers when he was playing.

Actually, Bowe seems to be better at catching the shit passes than the ones that hit him in the hands.

Gotta give Elway the nod over Favre. Montana no...Wrangler boy yes. I shall puke now.

Oddly I agree and that does seem to be the case with him a lot of the times, maybe years of catching only horrible balls have ill-prepared him to catch one in the numbers. Like when they do actually happen, he's like "oh shit, I'm not used to catching these types of passes".

Emelen Tunnel, Nightrain Lane. I never saw Baugh or Graham play and only saw Unitas towards the end of his career. You have athletes in every era. Only difference is its a full year job to stay in shape. Butkus is too much a competitor to be held back. Have him work out like today's pros and he would be a much better athlete. I can't see a soft player like Deion playing in the 40s or 50s. The receivers would have shoved him all over the field. Ed Reed make plays with instinct, not athleticism. Can you see Joe Montana holding up in an era when there was no such thing as roughing the passer? Can you see a timing QB like Brady having success when there was no 5 yard chuck rule?

It's because he has a lot more practice catching the bad balls. The ones that hit him in the hands are a surprise.

It is indeed a tough question, in part due to exposure and in part due to the fact that the game has changed so much. Also, the guys in the 30s and 40s were selling used cars in the offseason and didn't have year-round scientific training and didn't have modern medicine for their injuries.

For my part, I think I base my opinions somewhat on how they compared to others in their era. If a guy was way better than others in his era, I suspect that he would have been way better in this era, too, after getting the benefit of the training/money/medical advances. Based on that, I think guys like Baugh and Otto Graham probably would've been standouts in the modern era to roughly the same degree that they were standouts in their own era.

Elway's good, but not even top 5. Staubach, another scramble to pass QB, had better stats in a less QB friendly era. Staubach had as many rings. Nobody argues that Roger Staubach is GOAT.

John Elway was never first team all-pro. He wasn't the best QB of his era.

Elway wouldn't have had as many comebacks if he didn't suck so bad for three quarters of the game.

People who think John Elway is the GOAT are just confused about being Marty bit.

The NFL network agrees:

http://forums.footballguys.com/forum...owtopic=552157

Elway losing. LMAO.

I just remember so many years in his career when Elway just couldn't hit his receivers. He didn't develop any touch until much later in his career. People want to bag on his run game as well. Would you rather have Sammy Winder or Bernie Parmalee?

Well, that was close (wiping brow). Moving on are Dawson, Montana, Favre, and Brady.

Yes, that is fairly obvious. Elway has left a giant hoof print in your soul that will never go away. It comes out every time you post about him. He owns you. As a Bronco fan it is hilarious to see, and nothing could be a more fitting tribute to his everlasting greatness than to see you regularly twist and writhe about as you wallow in your painful memories. I'm not sure what kind of wine you can make with sour grapes, but your particular Elway whine is incredibly bitter.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...07985147_n.jpg

What are you talking about? I'm completely neutral and unbiased in any post I've ever written about that lowlife scum.

https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...51435053_n.jpg

Favre over Elway? LMAO Elway put a beating on you so bad for so long it's made you stupid.

LMAO

LMAO This might be the worst football take of all time. Stupid doesn't begin to describe it.

Unless, of course, you aren't serious. Which would make a lot more sense.