Better Than Geno
 

Making the decision to draft Geno Smith means you probably have to ask yourself two questions.

Initially, we ask ourselves whether Geno Smith is the best player in this draft.

If you believe that he is, that's on you and the Yellow Submarine you came in on.

For the rest of us (which I think has to be the vast majority), the answer's no.

So the two step question:

1. Which players are better than Geno Smith in this draft?

and

2. Are you comfortable passing over them for Geno Smith?

Now, to me, this is the comprehensive list of players I think are better than Geno, everything being equal (including positional value):

1. OT Luke Joeckel, Texas A&M
2. DE/OLB Bjoern Werner, Florida State
3. DE/OLB Damontre Moore, Texas A&M
4. DE/DT Sheldon Richardson, Missouri
5. DT Star Lotulelei, Utah
6. OT Eric Fisher, Central Michigan
7. CB DeMarcus Milliner, Alabama
8. OT Lane Johnson, Oklahoma
9. DT Johnathan Hankins, Ohio State
10. OG Chance Warmack, Alabama
11. CB Johnathan Banks, Mississippi State
12. DE/OLB Dion Jordan, Oregon
13. S Kenny Vaccaro, Texas

(Incidentally, of course, that's my big board.)

Are you comfortable passing over this much talent for Geno Smith? Any one player on this list could be a Chief. There is no obstruction between them and our roster.

I think that's a tall order for Geno to have to overcome. The argument of reaching for a QB over Hankins and Lane Johnson is tough enough. You're also asking the Chiefs ignore the very best this year has to offer in elite talent like Joeckel and Lotulelei (and players who are likely to end up as choice favorites of any number of coaches, like Sheldon Richardson).

I don't make my top 100 until after the combine but right now I can say these guys have fewer flaws than Geno.

Joeckel
Warmack
Fisher
Lotulelei
Werner

And that's about it.

And no I wouldn't take any of them before Geno.

I would, based on the fact that if we do in fact re sign Albert, the only guys on that list who would be immediate starters would be the DT's, OG's, and S's. I'm not taking a guy at one who isn't going to start immediately, so thats out.

I'm not taking a guard at 1. Thats crazy talk.

I might think about a DL, but TBH, given our draft history which shouldnt matter but to me it does, I'm taking a QB and taking my chances.

Add to that, based on his combine today, I think Geno has shown that he's alot more athletic than I was giving him credit for, which leads to alot of optimism on what he can do.

If we have Albert back and Joeckel is your BPA you taking him?

I think that Geno is better than every single one of those guys. Well, I think that Warmack might just be a better guard than Geno is a quarterback, but I take the QB there 100% of the time over a guard.

I probably don't, no. Albert's my LT in your scenerio, and I'm giving Winston another season (and I'm not drafting a RT #1 overall anyway).

But you're right, that would narrow it down to a defensive lineman. Either a passrusher (which I would totally take, even with Hali/Houston), or a defensive lineman who can turn this whole party around with Poe and Jackson.

I like the team chasing after Chris Canty but we don't know where he'll go. And I love, love, love Sheldon Richardson.

In your hypothetical, I'm still reaching for Geno over at least five DL guys I think are superior -- and in some cases, far superior.

it's the easiest decision in the history of decisions

none of those players are the best at their position to come out in the last 5 years...they're actually NOT special...

ok, maybe warmack...but so ****ing what?

we've been down this road for 30 years...it leads nowhere...you're really just saying 'too risky'

Yeah, you take Geno over every single one of thsoe guys.

Which of the guys you listed will impact a team more than Geno Smith.

Or, look at it this way - Combine all the Super Bowl rings of Anthony Munoz, Tony Boselli, Willie Roaf, and Will Shields. Not exactly game changers, even if they were the very best at their positions.

I'm saying "not remotely max value."

In my (read: Kansas City's) desperation for a QB, we can't simply choose for Geno to be the best player in this draft.

It's not equal. That's the problem.

You have a list of 13 players there. How many of them are generational talents like Eric Berry, Von Miller, or Calvin Johnson? If you're a team drafting at #1 overall and don't have a QB, the only remotely conceivable reason to pass on a QB is if everyone in the class is an abortion and you have a generational type of talent that ACTUALLY makes your team better.

Offensive linemen don't make our team better. In fact, I can argue that it will make our team WORSE at the beginning. Joeckel and Fisher are rookie LTs, who are going to be compared to a LT who gave up one sack all season long. That's a tall order to ask out of a rookie.

There isn't even a Mario Williams at the other position. There's no Ndamukong Suh. There's no beast that explodes off the film. Just a bunch of flaccid dicks that would normally get drafted between 5-20 in a draft class that had generational talents and QBs that everybody liked.

You can hate on the QBs in this class, but don't ****ing tell me any of those 13 players you listed are "must haves". That's what you need if you're drafting at #1 overall. So if you can't get one, roll the dice on the best QB available.

And from that point it becomes a debate about what Geno lacks in a #1 QB and if he can be coached up to improve on it to the necessary level. And I think with a guy like Andy Reid, yes, he absolutely CAN do that.

Those DL you like so much? I don't see any separation from Geno in terms of prospect potential or viability. Perhaps a guy like Star has a higher floor, but I'm not even sure about that. Drafting DL in the top 5 seems like its been riskier than drafting QB.

In a different situation at QB, I'd be fine with taking another pass rusher. But as much as we don't think so, there is probably some business side to this decision. Taking a guy first overall, who isn't an everydown difference maker, isn't going to be met with alot of joy.

With Richardsons background I have a really hard time taking him at 1.

I'd also say, when you add positional value to some of these guys, I think that makes a better case for a QB.

Personally, I think you have some of your DL guys too high, as well as Milliner and Banks. I'm not taking a CB at 1, when I can get one at 34 who has equal skill.

I think the combine showed, along with what pro days will show, that there is a significant gap between the top QB maybe 2 depending on Barkley, and the rest of the crop.

yes, we 'risk' losing some mythological 'value'

'value' doesn't win games...QBs do

I would say Joeckel, who has the ability to be a 12-year Pro Bowler. And I think Moore has potential to be.

All 100% fair points.

To risk sounding like an internet meme, generational talents are generational.

Half of the drafts in our lifetime don't have them.

I would say there's three -- Joeckel, Werner and Moore.

Fair point.

And I just don't think Werner fits out defense. I don't like him standing up at OLB. IMO, he's a 43 DE.


Joeckel is losing ground to Fisher, who I would actually rather us take at 1 if we are taking a LT.

All players are risks in some form, and honestly if he's that big of a risk, he's not on my Top 15. I usually don't like boom/bust players as much as I do high-floor guys. Which puts me at odds with much of ChiefsPlanet, but my preferences are my preferences.

I'm just saying, all things being equal, most of us would probably take JJ Watt over Donovan McNabb. I may be wrong about that, but I think the board is skewed this year because of how insanely starving we've been for a franchise QB. But that doesn't noodle with my calculations as much as it does other folks here.

I do not see a Super Bowl winner in Geno Smith. I do see a world class bully of offensive lines in a few defensive players.

Looking at just the ticket-selling angle of things, I think Geno Smith would be the biggest boon to business, hands down.

Don't know if it'd be the best football decision, but there's that.

who in their right mind would take Watt over McNabb?

that's so ass backwards...

I'm high on Werner, but I'd like to see him perform in the Combine first.

If he breaks 4.7, he's in our wheelhouse.

Fair point on Fisher.

I would. Watt has Hall of Fame potential.

McNabb, I think, is the comparison I would draw to Geno.

If Jarvis Jones was healthy I'd have him above Geno as a prospect.

But Werner is the only pass rusher I'd put above Geno. I don't like Moore.

QB biggest need on team: Check

Geno best QB in draft: Check

Chiefs with #1 pick: Check

I dont see the problem here...

I've read that teams are absolutely hating Jarvis Jones. I've taken him out of 1st round consideration entirely.

Preface this by saying I'm high on Geno than you are. But with that, I don't think you are quit playing positional value into your rankings here.


And frankly, I'm tired of playing it the way we have. I'd rather take a chance on a QB who might have more risk attached than a DL who has less.

And as much as you like him, after talking to MU guys, I'm pretty much taking Richardson off the board.

What if we pretended Geno was McNabb. Then ask yourself if you'd take any of those guys over McNabb.

I'm not sure why that would be. He's undersized, but with the right team he fits. And I think teams hating Jones has more to do with his spinal issue than his game film.

And Moore just did 13 reps on bench at the combine. Thats probably not working out well for him.

the point isn't to acquire hall of famers....its to find a franchise QB

chiefs are a perfect ****ing example of what hall of famers that are not/sans QBs get you

you and i live on different planets

In my OP, I totally ignored positional value. So there's that.

I think people are getting too much of a confirmation bias with Geno. A bunch of folks watch his highlights but ignore the score of lowlights he has up. For every brilliant game, there's games where the offense collapses. For every great throw, there's a pass that falls five yards out of bounds.

I really like Geno and like everybody else, I'm starved for a QB and I want us to draft one.

But this fanbase is getting its hopes up waaaaay too high on this guy.

That's exactly why, apparently.

Yup. But give him a full season in NFL strength and conditioning.

And the Browns are a perfect example of taking QBs in the 1st round with huge question marks, over and over and over again.

I don't want us to be the Browns.

The fact is : QB is our weakest position. Geno would be an upgrade, as well as about 5 other rookie QBs. I still think Dorsey goes after the best talent ,surest pick at #1 if that's where we stay but IMO the logical choice is to trade down with Arizona / Buffalo and take Fisher and then come back and get Wilson or Manuel at 34. I do have a hardon for tavon Austin especially after today but he's not a big need other than giving us a punt returner.

Oh he's in no means a perfect prospect. The rhetoric on him around here is a bit much at times, but I really don't mind it. This franchise has shit on us overa nd over in terms of QB play, so I get it.

But I think last years class has hurt him, his system has hurt him, and things he's actually had control on have hurt him.

I may be putting way too much into todays numbers, but I am actually a bit blown away by his combine numbers and I'm starting to think he wasn't used very well at WVU.

Some info is coming out on him soon that you might not like. Secondroundstats is working on it. Will probably be posted tonight actually.

Eh, at this point, we are worse than the Browns.


And the Browns never had Reid grooming said QB.

Hmmm.

we are worse than the browns...

and at least they're trying...we don't even try, haven't for decades

you'd pass on that QB from Delaware for 'value' every time...you've got a recipe for nowhere

it's like you've learned nothing for the last 30 years

Geno Smith is the player in this draft that will have the greatest impact on his team.

He's the clear choice and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

As we've talked about recently on here, I also don't think with the new rule changes etc you have to have what you did say 5 or 6 years ago at Qb to win.

I don't think it's takes Elite at that spot, rather just good/great.

He had a great playoff run but no way am I putting Joe Flacco as elite. Against probably most opinions, wouldn't say Eli is either.


It just doesn't take Brady, Brees, Manning, Rodgers anymore. They are multipliers yes, but I don't think it's quite where thats what you have to have.

Every year you guys forget. Never fails. I'm on a QB's bandwagon almost every ****ing year. Sanchez, Clausen, I was even pushing for Weeden in the 2nd last year.

I haven't endorsed anybody for our #1 pick yet. I'm still deciding. But I love QBs, I know they're the most important player on the field.

This suddenly became the weakest QB class we've seen in a decade, maybe more. It's reasonable to be hesitant.

We had two teams in the Super Bowl going at it with good QBs, not great QBs. But they both had Top 3 defenses.

A QB offers you the most direct path to the Super Bowl, but it's not the only one. If there was a guy we could acquire along this DL that could transform our defensive front into an All League front, then that can be worth an investment.

Actually, IIRC, the Ravens defense wasn't near as good this year. Granted they had some injuries.


And I've been polite to others and I know you can take it, but **** the ****ing defensive line. **** it with a ****ing dildo **** stick.

I'll take a guy like Margus Hunt and see what happens.

Here's why my answer is an easy 'yes' - the guy you cited: Lane Johnson.

Is this really the most incredible LT class of all time? Or is it just that this is an entire class where there isn't much separation at the top?

Watching the combine, I thought Lane Johnson looked better than Joeckel and Fisher. That tells me that these tackles that are being talked up us as being so much better than Geno as pure players...really aren't all that. Warkmack's feet sucked balls, no chance in hell I'd take him over a QB; likewise with the other guard. I still like Star well enough, but certainly not enough to pass on a Matt Schaub level QB for him.

Does Werner have the athletic ability to be a great pass rusher? Is Richardson smart enough to find the stadium? Is Moore a tweener? Didn't Dion Jordan just have surgery? Are Milliner and Banks any better than Rhodes?

I can find you a wart on each one of those guys and arguments that are similar to the ones made against Geno.

I just watched Geno put forward an athletic display equal to the most athletic QBs the draft has produced in years. In the end, the arguments to be made against him juts don't sway me.

The position's too important. We've sucked too badly at it for too long and there are too many strengths in Geno for me to even contemplate passing on him at this point.

LMAO

I love Margus Hunt, first of all. I want him with our 2nd rounder. LOVE him.

But you're telling me you wouldn't take a Canty-Poe-Richardson DL? With Tyson Jackson and Jerrell Powe rotating in?

God, I'd sure ****ing take that.

You make a lot of good points.

I'm high as balls on Richardson, though. I know that makes me certifiable, but I don't give a shit if he's a dumbass. That mother****er can go.

Until Sheldon Richardson quits on his teammates like he did at Missouri.

He's an idiot and a selfish prick. Richardson at 1.1 would be !@#$ing insane.

I'd take it, but I'd also take a Canty-Poe- Bid dick Seymour for a year or two over drafting Richardson.

Dude is an absolute headcase and if we've learned anything based on the Chiefs history, DL with red flags scare the shit out of me.

You may love QBs but if you think this is the weakest class in a decade, you don't know jack shit about them.

Yep, you obviously know nothing about QBs.

With Alex Smith at QB?

**** no I wouldn't take that. That's ****ing stupid.

With new developments about Star, he might slip. Geno at 1, star at 34?

Right. Obviously I'd have to clear Richardson personally if I were a GM.

But he is stupid talented. You want to talk about generational talent. He could possibly have that if properly groomed. I don't know if I've seen much of anybody like him.

Honestly? I don't think Star fits our scheme.

I think he's a 4-3 guy, not a 3-4 guy. And you usually don't want to take a guy that falls that far in the 2nd. He's falling for a reason.

Yeah, sure. But again, if he checks out medically, Canty-Star-Poe could be pretty damn good, with others coming off the bench.

Okay - you'll have to defend that one. And here's the toughest route to it:

There's no argument made by anyone that Matt Barkley wouldn't have been the 3rd QB off the board last season in a draft that many are calling the strongest QB class since 1983.

Now all of the sudden he's the 2nd or 3rd QB off the board in the worst QB class in a decade?

Did Barkley get a hell of a lot worse or has the examination of this year's class under the microscope of the 2012 class become unreasonably critical? Matt Barkley was essentially in that class, slotted and ready to go to the Redskins or Dolphins. After going nose to nose with Luck last season, people were convinced that Barkley was 1b to Lucks 1a.

C'mon, this class isn't that bad and it's a damn sight better than, for instance, the Bradford draft. It's just had such a bizarre tilt to it after last year's class that nobody can look at it objectively.

Shariff Floyd. If I were going DT, I'd go with the guy that's 3.5 yrs younger and just as gifted athletically (if not more so).

Just like Joeckel, if there are 2 'once in a lifetime' prospects in a draft, I'm going to think twice about whether or not they're truly once in a lifetime. Sometimes they are (last year's QBs), but more often than not, Sheldon Richardson just ends up another Suh...or worse yet, another Dorsey.

Anybody notice what position both SB teams were stacked at?

Suggs
Lewis
Ellerbee
Kruger

Smith
Bowman
Willis
Brooks

Best post I've read in awhile.

The problem I think with the value comparison is, what if the Chiefs see him as a Brady Quinn not a McNabb? What value does he have if they think he isn't the guy? I know he's the highest rated this year, but that doesnt mean he's a sure fire starter just because we all want him to be. I want a QB bad this year, and honestly I'm having a hard time waving the banner for anyone ahead of him. I'm finding myself trying to overlook a lot. Total Access tonight made my stomach sink a little watching his interview with Mooch. (yep interview again) When asked to repeat the play Mooch drew up he blanked at first, then had to be prompted 3 times as he forgot progression, protection, and terminology. I've watched I think every QB with Mooch and Gruden the last few years and I dont remember anyone needing more than 1 prompt. Add the repeated "Alex Smiths value went up today", and "how does he make such great throws and turn around and miss so badly on the next?", and I think its reasonable to give a little pause when talking about #1 overall pick.

Yeah. That's what did it. If only the Chiefs could get that missing piece at ILB.

Sheldon Richardson was one of the few players that worked his ass off. Sure he made stupid decisions, but when have we had the huddle and decided we want smart Defensive linemen all of a sudden?

Lets look at it this way:

Who is the best offensive lineman ever? Anthony Munoz? Willie Roaf? Bruce Matthews? Randall McDaniel? John Hannah?

Choose anyone - your personal #1 offensive lineman of all time.

If you were starting a franchise would you rather have that offensive lineman or would you rather have Warren Moon? Jim Kelly? Joe Namath?

Quarterbacks are so important that I'll take a great QB (not best ever) over the greatest offensive lineman of all time.

No player in this draft - as a prospect - is the "greatest of all time" at any position. I'll take a very good prospect in Geno at QB over a great prospect (debatable) in Joeckel, Werner, etc.

Good post

They are clueless and the Chiefs are doomed.

The first three were game changers. Willie Roaf changed TrINT to Trent, for example. The Chiefs last window slammed shut when Roaf retired and it hasn't reopened since.

Geno

No, it closed when Peterson pissed off Tait and he went to the Bears. We paraded has-beens and never will be's out at right tackle for a decade and never recovered. Defenses stacked that side of the line and it was a flood gate to the QB.

Suppose all those players actually meet their max potential. Then suppose Geno Smith meets his max potential. Who's going to make a bigger difference at that point? The QB that's who. The Chiefs need to draft Geno Smith #1 overall and build off of that.

[QUOTE=Direckshun;9432702] Are you comfortable passing over them for Geno Smith?[QUOTE]

You cannot ignore need and positional value. Both scream that the answer to your question is "Yes"

I'm sure it was the 49ers 23rd ranked passing offense that got them to the SB, not their 3rd ranked defense.

Clearly you missed out on their playoff games.

Moron.

Yep, I totally missed out on their 8th (out of 12) passing offense powering them to the SB. It certainly didn't have anything to do with their defense having the second most turnovers of any team in the playoffs. The only team with more was... oh yeah, the team they lost to in the SB.

The team with the #1 defense has won the SB 8 times.

The team with the #1 rusher has won the SB 4 times.

The team with the #1 passer has never won the SB.

Personally I think Kenny Vaccaro is the most overrated player in this draft. I watched him miss so many tackles and have arm tackles the whole season, mix that in with a 4.7 40, I dont see what all the hypes about with him

Stop trolling. It doesnt work when we know you are a opposing fans

Here's a list of the last 20 Super Bowl winning quarterbacks:

Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman
Super Bowl 29. Steve Young
Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman
Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre
Super Bowl 32. John Elway
Super Bowl 33. John Elway
Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner
Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer
Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady
Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson
Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady
Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady
Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning
Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning
Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger
Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees
Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers
Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning
Super Bowl 47: Joe Flacco

17 out of 20 were elite quarterbacks, and Flacco certainly played like one the entire postseason. You don't have to have the passing leader, but you have to have an elite quarterback.

If Albert isn't re-signed, then you pick Joeckel without thinking twice and maybe Barkley Wilson or Bray in the 2nd

CoMo, is Margus Hunt awesome!?

Not trolling, just posting facts. I agree that QB is the most important part of a team, but around here it's getting to the point where I think people honestly believe that the rest of the team doesn't matter. I read a post recently where someone stated that defense doesn't matter at all.

Back when Brady won 3 SBs in 4 years, he threw for less than 3500 yards per year. Since then, he's been throwing for more than 4400 yards per year, and has no more rings to show for it. Coincidentally, the Patriots used to have a really good defense.

When you haven't had a franchise QB in 40 ****ing years, the rest of the team DOESN'T matter.