The ground can't cause a fumble
 

This used to be a clear cut rule. No subjective bullshit involved. Now it seems like yet another way for the refs to influence the outcome of a game. Discuss.

Yes, the ground CAN cause a fumble if the fumbling player is not down by contact.

/thread

The ground is still less likely to cause a fumble than alex smith......

I've seen at least two instances this pre-season where the ball popped out as the player with the ball landed on his back after being hit, both were called fumbles. I could have sworn the back counted as down by contact.

Ban the ground.

Got a specific example (and video)?

If it's exactly as you described, those should not have been fumbles. However, if the ball starts to move around after the hit and then eventually becomes fully dislodged when the player hits the ground, it could definitely be ruled a fumble.

Likewise, if the player is hit but stays on his feet for a few runs, then falls and loses it, that could be called a fumble as well.

I didn't agree with this call at all, progress was over and Dex was down.

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McCluster also "fumbled" another ball where he was on his ass and then knocked on his back when the ball came out.

Not down by contact.

True that, but he was down by butt hurt. Ought to be a law! :cuss:

Definitely a fumble.

True, but that was an incompletion by todays definition unless the qb threw the ball backwards. I can't remember.

Didn't stop the refs from calling a Giants player down when he left the ball on the ground without being touched. I can't remember who the player was but it was a pretty deciding call.

They call it "giving yourself up" or some shit. McCluster clearly wasn't attempting to advance the ball and gave himself up due to injury.

I doubt the ref knew he was injured when the call was made.

It wasn't obvious when he was rolling around grabbing his arm?

Again, the call was made before that. When the ball comes out.

Edit: Actually, I was wrong. It appears to have been called down, initially.

Replay overturned it.

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Say whatever you want, that wasn't a fumble. At no point did McCluster lose control of the ball until he injured his arm and just let go of the ball.

Ah, the old "it makes sense to me, so it must be true regardless of the rules of the game" approach. Good luck with that.

... The rules of the game say a player can give himself up.

Nice try?

ROFL

Are you saying that because you've actually found it in the rule book or because you want it to be true?

:facepalm:

So you made it up. Got it.

I don't think it has anything to do with fumbling.

For instance, Sliding to avoid a hit is giving yourself up.

It's amazing how many people spend so much time watching football yet have no idea what the **** they're watching.

Get back to me when you have a clue about what you are talking about before saying someone else made something up.

Here. I'll even give you a head start.

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ule%20Book.pdf

Let me know when you find the part about a play stopping due to an injured player.

I wish I could remember the Giants player who caught a ball and went to the ground without being touched and left the ball on the ground and walked away like it was college.

That was ruled to not be a fumble because the player gave himself up and made no attempt to advance the ball and was ruled down.

No use talking to you anymore because you don't know anything on the subject.

I accept your concession.

Rule 7 Section 4 Article 1 (a): How to give yourself up

An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended:

(a) when a runner is out of bounds or declares himself down by falling to the ground and makes no effort to advance.

There you go dipshit.

Now **** off.

In case anyone wants to know what the actual rules are... (Sorry for a few missing letters, the pdf wouldn't copy correctly.)

http://static.nfl.com/static/content...ule%20Book.pdf


Basically you have to fall to the ground and make no effort to advance. Dex injured himself trying to stay up. His fall was not intentional (He did not "declare himself down by falling". Sure he made no attempt to advance, but that was after he had already fumbled. You would have an argument if he intentionally went down, but he didn't.

Like I said, he didn't "declare himself down by falling". He fell and in the process of falling lost control of the ball. Way to lose your shit over a play from a play from a year ago, though.

Again, there's no mention of an injury in there whatsoever. Therefore, the injury is irrelevant to the discussion.

So, if you watched that play and had no clue there was an injury, are you honestly suggesting that he "fell to the ground and made no effort to advance" in the 0.2 seconds that passed between the time his arm hit and the time the ball came out?

If that's the way you're interpreting that rule, then I can't help you.

He didn't lose control of the ball. He had control the whole time until he intentionally let go of the ball.

And I'm not losing my shit over the call made a year ago on a 2-14 team. I'm losing my shit over someone who clearly knows nothing on the subject acting like I'm making stuff up.

(peruses rules looking for something about a play stopping due to a player intentionally letting go of the ball)

:shrug:

Still a fumble.

Apparently you are the only member of the board who understands this rule correctly, since EVERYONE else thinks that was a fumble.

Clearly.

Even the person who posted the clip thought it was a fumble... :rolleyes:

Idiot.

So where's that rule? I missed it.

You're free to have the opinion that it is not a fumble, but you're still wrong.

Not really.

The rule states that if a player falls to the ground and makes no effort to advance the ball the play is dead.

McCluster fell to the ground and made no effort to advance the ball. Play dead.

It's either an incomplete pass or a catch and down by virtue of that rule.

You don't mean this Guy do you?

It almost sounds like thee posts later he thought it was a fumble too.

it's really ok to be wrong on ocassion.

Just admit you are wrong and move on.

Why would I admit I'm wrong when the rulebook agrees with me? Or are we going to act like the officials are right 100% of the time and know the rulebook from front to back?

No. it's either an incomplete pass or a fumbled lateral. He did not maintain control through the entire act of catching the ball. if it was thrown backwards, that makes it a live ball. But,giving himself up is not what happened.

Falling to the ground like Dex does in that video is not 'giving up'.

Kneeling or Sliding feet first is.

A fumbled lateral?

WTF? ROFLROFLROFL

Go back to lurking.

Now we are making up definitions?

ROFL Now you're just being intentionally obtuse.

Kneeling or sliding... the new "falling" ROFL

Do you know what a QB does to avoid being hit while running in open field?

Let me guess... He falls?

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Watch Moss after the catch.

Watch out for those base stealers falling into second.

Sliding feet first for a QB is them giving up.

They are immediately called down when they begin the slide.

Let me go fall on the ground to say a prayer.

You do realize that a backwards pass is a lateral, right?

I know exactly what a lateral is.

I'm sure we'd all like to hear about how McCluster lateraled the ball.

jd1020, you are wrong about this. McCluster didn't fall to the ground to give himself up. He lost his footing while coming down with the catch and in the process of trying to catch his fall hurt himself. The pain of the injury caused him to unintentionally let go off the football. He was never intentionally giving himself up. He stopped trying to advance the ball because he was injured and couldn't give two ****s about anything but his arm. According to the rules, this is a fumble.

On the contrary, if he had been running in the open field, pulled a hammy, fell down intentionally, and then let go of the ball, then you would be correct. He would have "intentionally" given himself up. Does that make sense, or do you want to continue to make yourself look foolish by arguing this point?

Could you please quote the word "intentionally" in the rule?

Thanks in advance.

No you dipshit the ball was lateraled to him and he didn't maintain control of it through the entire act of catching it.

ROFL Stubborn as hell...

"Declares himself down" implies that the act is intentional don't you think? Unless you know of any other instance in life you can unintentionally declare something.

It wasn't lateraled.

Doesn't matter because jd is 1000x wrong on this.

You're reeruned.

To me declaring himself down is clearly defined by the act of falling and not making an attempt to advance the ball. Maybe I'm just not good at reading the actual words like some people here.

Carry on.

That would present be a HUGE grey area, if that were the case.

There's a nifty extension for reddit called the Reddit Enhancement Suite that allows you to do a variety of nifty things. One of those things is to "tag" other users with little descriptions to help you remember who they are, what they're like, etc.

I kind of wish we had it here so that in times like this I could remember to just go "aww...look at the little special kid" and move on rather than trying to help him understand the rules.

That would be awesome.

Because it's pretty ****ing easy to comprehend that rule.

"Falling to the ground with no effort to advance the ball."

McCluster caught the ball and fell to the ground without making a "football move" to advance the ball.

It's either an incomplete pass or a catch and down by that rule. There's no two ways about it besides a bunch of challenged readers trying to invent their own definition of the rule.

But I'm done talking about a simple definition now. It was a year ago on a 2-14 team.

LMAO Obtuse

The ball came out and he was not touched. Fumble.

Keep digging that hole...

Poor little guy.

If you wanna call it incomplete, fine.

But your falling and giving up excuse does not apply here.

I do not understand why some people cannot just admit when they are wrong.

JFC one of the worst arguments in CP history.

I'll try this one more time.

McCluster "never declared himself down" by falling, kneeling, etc... He simply fell down in the process of making the catch and to further show he wasn't "declaring himself down" he tried to stop himself from falling down. In the process of trying to stop his fall, he injured his arm and this injury caused him to let go of the ball. He never got the chance to try to advance the ball because he was injured and fumbled the ball due to this injury.

When I started this thread, I was not thinking about that McCluster fumble at all. I was thinking about a fumble I saw Thursday night, I think in the Atlanta Baltimore game. The ball carrier was hit and landed on his shoulder/back and the ball popped out. They called it a fumble. Sure seemed down to me.

In this instance, I agree. He should have been called down.

Oh, and **** you btw.