The Oxford Comma
 

Saw this on 538, and figured I'd poll the board on this highly controversial subject. Hopefully this isn't too off-topic here on Food Planet. (Why hasn't the lounge been renamed to that yet, by the way?)

The Oxford comma is the last comma before the "and" in a list of 3 or more things. For example, which one of these looks correct to you:

Denver, Oakland, and San Diego can all go to hell. (oxford comma)

Denver, Oakland and San Diego can all go to hell. (no oxford comma)

With

Hello, commatard on the loose.

,,,

I usually do unless I feel rebellious, then I leave it out.

They both are correct, but it is a matter of how to get them there.

Just say no

AP sez no comma. I must abide by AP. AP is wisdom. AP is life. AP is God.

Oxford Comma4Lyfe

i use it

The last few years I've made a conscious effort to stop using the Oxford comma. It's pretty much second nature for me now.

The one that threw me for a loop recently was learning that the 2-space rule after periods I was taught and have used virtually my whole life was wrong. I'm still struggling with that.

Never got called on it in 6 years of school..

Two spaces is not wrong. That's just typographers being assholes.

That's horseshit, I don't care what anyone says.

The 2-space rule only exists because of typewriters, not because it makes any kind of grammatical sense. It is not necessary in the age of modern word processors that can handle kerning.

No, because I was taught it was not needed. Never knew there was a controversy over it. Tho' I'd seen it used, I just thought it was error.

Between this and some posts between Austin and Loneiguana, are we gonna name this place Grammar Planet now?

There's actually not a clear winner on this, its pretty split down the middle right now. It is punctuation's version of the Betamax vs VCR war.

In American English, the Oxford comma is deemed to be correct and used in most style guides except for AP. Since AP is such a huge deal over here, we still often see the extra comma omitted.

In British English, the Oxford comma is considered to be wrong and not used very much except in the Oxford style where the name comes from.

Yeah, I have multiple degrees and was never dinged for it either, but a writer friend of mine gave me no end of grief after seeing me use it.

The 2-space rule exists to prevent your sentences from running together like a couple drunk assholes....

It's incredibly annoying that the forum auto removes extra spaces.

Wow! Awesome you know what kerning is. I don't see that very often in people outside my profession.

You got it exactly right. It's only needed on typewriters because the spacing is mechanical and even. So the extra space is needed to be noticed as a stop. Not so, when the spaces between letters are optically spaced. The space can be seen. Yes optically, not mechanically. It's an art form. Scientists tend to be too mechanical. However, I do find it interesting that Steve Jobs took calligraphy in college and when he designed the Mac, their appearance of their fonts were so much better to look at.

Kerning is the removal of spaces between letters. Letterspacing is the addition of space between letters for a very wide set...but usually done as an design device.

I taught typography for a while in 2006-07. There's a book called The Mac is Not a Typewriter that applies just as much to anyone typing on a PC. There's other things like no space after a comma and a few others.

I know the history, but thanks.

It seems odd to me not to use it to me, though I know some places say not to. Commas generally indicate pauses when read aloud, and I generally say:

red (pause) white (pause) and blue

rather than

red (pause) white and blue

It's not the forum - it's all HTML.

I didn't, even know, such a thing, existed.

Only on a typewriter. When space is removed between letters, once impossible on a typewriter, it becomes unnecessary. The resultant space is enough without two.

I suspect, you don't use any kerning when you type something? If so, you use your desktop publishing like a typewriter. That's out moded.

Layout programs have this available so you can remove excessive spaces, which actually harms readability. Such things have actually been tested, as well as other typographical settings. Ad runs have even been split, showing that it deters reading of ads poorly set and other factors...as to where placed on the ad.

From there, I guess its a matter of preference. Since it is not necessary and never would have existed without typewriters, I don't like it.

To you it may look like sentences are smashed together because you are used to the extra space, but to me when I read a document typed out by someone who uses 2 spaces, the extra space just sticks out obviously to me as a wrong thing created from spastically slapping the space bar too many times.

A comma denotes a pause. The pause after Denver is the same length as the pause after Oakland; therefore, the comma belongs.

Also consider the following:

The regular characters on Gilligan's Island were: Gilligan, the Skipper, the Professor, Ginger, Mary Anne, and Mr. and Mrs Howell.

versus

The regular characters on Gilligan's Island were: Gilligan, the Skipper, the Professor, Ginger, Mary Anne and Mr. and Mrs Howell.

The Oxford comma clearly signifies that the first "and" in the sentence completes the list. When one encounters the second "and" one is already given a hint that the last item in the group is a plural item (Mr. and Mrs. Howell). Without the Oxford comma, one must read the sentence to the end and then parse out how things are grouped. The Oxford comma improves readability and therefore it is wrong to exclude it.

Mmmmm not really. The "being assholes" part that is.

Thats probably the strongest reason why the oxford comma refuses to die and has actually gained acceptance in America despite efforts to kill it.

It mimics the cadence of the words when they are spoken. Everyone pauses before the "and", so it feels right to have a comma there.

Yes, to people who like to know where sentences end, that second space is a blessing, as it reinforces the punctuation mark ending the sentence. To people who read like shit anyway, and do it basically just to get through what they're reading, comprehension be damned, it doesn't matter as much.

Yeah, it leaves this ugly gap. If you squint at the page you see a winding river of space running down the page that is ugly.

who gives a **** about an oxford comma

Ya' know fish, if you really hate to use two spaces. You can customize the space you want to be a tad wider, but not as much as two typewriter spaces if it bothers you so much.

Without. Learned that a looooong time ago.

Two spaces after a period is correct. Absolutely correct. But I could care less about that one.

Chiefs, Food, and GrammarPlanet

Also, if you moved Mr. and Mrs. Howell to earlier in the sentence all hell breaks loose without the Oxford comma.

The regular characters on Gilligan's Island were: Gilligan, the Skipper, the Professor, Mr. and Mrs Howell, Mary Anne and Ginger.

As I read that, I have to wonder if Mary Anne and Ginger are a couple. The Oxford comma would clearly show that both of them are on the market.

Yes, really. There's nothing wrong with the use of two spaces. This isn't a rule, it's an aesthetic choice.

I think you sort of have it backwards.

Modern books never, ever use the extra space. So people who are used to reading are accustomed to not having that extra space.

I don't have it backwards. That's why the second space was put in there in the first place, when they were using typewriters.

There is nothing wrong with getting up and walking over to your TV to change the channel either. Both are vestiges of outdated technology.

The Oxford Comma
 

I disagree. The Oxford comma is there for clarity and accuracy.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/06/18/gy2aga8u.jpg

You're welcome to prefer single space. You're being an asshole when you claim that it's wrong to use a double space, because it's not wrong and you know it's not wrong, since it's just a preference, and not a rule.

That's the difference.

You do have it backwards. You said, in your words, the extra space is needed unless you "read like shit"

But books never use the extra space. To me it seems like its helpful only if you "read like shit"

There were not 2 spaces before typewriters, because proportional fonts used in standard printing did not require them. Two spaces were used when there were only mono-spaced type on typewriters. Unless you are using Courier font, the second space no longer helps readability and in fact impairs it.

Picture says a thousand words:
 

Hope this helps.

Here's an image of a sample of even typewriter spacing versus optical:
http://www.westminster.edu/staff/nak/courses/spaces.htm

Hmm. I would think if the strippers were JFK and Stalin, there would be a semi-colon after strippers. But I struggle with the correct use of semi-colons.

I like this thread.

Awesome!

Yep, that would be entirely incorrect.

I'd say it's the new rule based on both logic, sense and aesthetics.
I know you're in printing right?

You should probably be reading posts for comprehension in this thread, given the two current topics. I did not write what you are claiming I wrote.

Try this: http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon

You can say what you want. You'll be wrong, since it's not a rule and is just a preference, but you can say it. Oh, and if we're doing the rules thing, it's "you're", not "your".

LMAO

I am also true to AP, but I refuse to give up the Oxford comma since clarity and accuracy are paramount. I also set up my company's style guide, and we went to website and email (one word, lower case) three years before AP.

That explains it. Thanks dude.

That is what you wrote. You are saying the extra space helps when reading, and that it doesn't matter for people "who read like shit".

But thats entirely wrong. (don't get offended by the way, I wasn't the one who decided to insult the other's preference. You really did not have to go there)

1) books never use the extra space after 1950 or so. That is a stone-cold fact.

2) The people who are best at reading probably read books more than people who "read like shit"

3) The best readers are therefore accustomed to single space, so the extra space does nothing for them.

So, the extra space either serves no purpose whatsoever, or perhaps it helps people who "read like shit". I pointed this out only because it was amusing to me that the insult you were using, if it applied to anyone at all, probably applied more to people who for whatever reason like the extra space.

If you don't want to use it, that's fine with me. But it is the new rule and is taught as one. It's how typographers always set type. We are all setting type now--just digitally.

Nope. I caught it--a typo. I went back and edited it.

Temper much?

I know what I wrote. I wrote it. You don't seem to to comprehend what I wrote. That's where the issue is, here. You're jousting at a non-existent windmill.

The Oxford Comma
 

No. It's wrong.

http://www.slate.com/articles/techno..._invaders.html

:shake:

Seriously, it's not wrong. There's no right or wrong here. It's a preference born of necessity, from the typewriter era. What the typographers would have been more accurate in saying is that there is no longer a need, in their opinion, for the second space.

You can't just fold your arms and say "thats not what I said, you can't read", when your post looks very clear to me.

Don't be an ass about it, either point out precisely where I'm wrong, or move on.

You are totally correct. Surprised you know this.

Readability is defined as the ability to grasp words quickly with ease.

It has nothing to do do with literacy or legibility regarding the topic of typography. Legibility is being able to determine what the characters are--busy backgrounds, water damage on a page, poor handwriting impair this.

When characters are spaced out too wide, as they are on a typewriter, one tends to grasp characters or words more individually. This slows down recognition. When closer and optically spaced a person can grasp a group of words more rapidly. Hence, readability is about speed. How type is set can aid or impair this.

Sure if one doesn't know what the words mean, they may go slower too but with all things being equal, proper spacing facilitates readability.

Also, applies to how wide a column of type one uses as too much length tires out the reader.

The Oxford Comma
 

It's an outdated workaround born of necessity. Doesn't make it less wrong.

And in today's world, it's utterly useless (and ugly).

Can we get an auto-correct that says "hello, spacetard on the loose"?

No temper, although your attempt to switch it around to me instead of your mistake is noted, but a typo is generally hitting "j" instead of "h", not getting a word choice completely wrong.

What does Oxford say about the hashtag symbol? I say burn it.

I've done the exact same thing before, and I'm an admitted grammar nazi. We all make mistakes, and sometimes you just type the wrong word.

Well, yes, it does. Pretty much by definition.

I think you're the one getting petty and sound pissed-off.

Yup! That's a common one. I actually did catch it and made the edit before he had to point it out.

A workaround can absolutely be against the rules. Is English your second language?

Yes, but people pissing and moaning about a non-existent rule should be paying better attention to the real rules. BEP's failure to do so was funny. I noted it and laughed. That should have been the end of it, but she doubled down with the "typo" excuse.

:spock:

There is no rule.

Dude... You are wrong. Get over it. Keep on using the two spaces, but know typographers for the past 100 years have agreed one space is correct.

Uh, I said I caught it and BEFORE you noted it. I usually edit after I post. I think you're acting pretty defensive.

I'm not wrong, and your own understanding of the typewriter situation should tell you that.

Christ, you people are failing logic 101.

He doesn't like being wrong, apparently. He's dug in and can't give in now.

Typesetting was around WAY before typewriters.

Looks like it. Note on time: 2:27 for my post. His is at 2:29. Plenty of time for me to make an edit without an edit line showing. So it remains corrected before he even calls it out.

I'm not defensive at all. I may be a bit rushed, since I've got 3 people using non-logic to say the same basic thing time and again, and I'm doing my best to respond before I have to leave.

Regarding your grammar error. You screwed up a simple rule. I pointed it out. You're the one who's been defensive about it. Look to your own self on this one.

Now, I've got to run. Have fun insisting a preference is actually a rule.

A workaround is, by its nature, intended to be temporary. A workaround rule is not usually permanent when the need for a workaround comes to an end.

The 2-space rule is correct when you are using an old-fashioned typewriter in certain fonts.

In every other case, the 2-space rule does not apply, and the use of the extra space is not correct.

The same can't be said for the Oxford Comma, there we have a real controversy with rational reasons backing up both sides.

It has nothing to do with logic. It has to do with change. Technology just improves how we can do things.

BTW there's even a PC version of the book I mentioned:

Your PC is not a typewriter

http://www.imarc.net/blog/727-your_p...t_a_typewriter