Berry or Hali...who is more valuable?
 

It was pretty much the consensus that drafting Ford spelled the exit for Hali next off-season...being that KC's defense is playing better this season with Berry on the bench, who is more valuable? I'm wondering if DJ hadn't been injured..if Berry's absence would even be noticed.

Hali is hands down my favorite Chief...his life history is pretty amazing. He is the veteran leader of the defense...KC would miss him in the locker room.

91

This defense is playing better because Bob Sutton understands the strengths and weaknesses of the players better than last season, and is putting them in better positions to succeed.

I agree...and Hali is more important to Sutton's scheme than an over-priced safety.

KC should trade Berry, IMO...he's just too expensive for what he brings to the field.

I, too appreciate Hali and think he's been a terrific and relentless player for us. But...

Is he a 'leader'? Not bashing him in any way, but my read on Tamba is that he's more of a self motivated player who is somewhat introverted. Admittedly you don't need to be a rah-rah, boisterous, vocal dude to be a leader- Example is a language everyone speaks.

But I don't see him directing team mates on the field or grabbing guys on the sidelines to collaborate. Who is our leader on Defense?

Pass rushers are always more important than safeties in any scheme.

But we should see how Sutton utilizes Berry's versatility with the adjustments he made from last year before we decide to just move on from him.

Berry, used properly, is a dynamic play maker that we don't have anywhere else on this defense.

Dontari poe loves eating blitz boxes

This.

Not sure how I'd elect to handle Berry yet. His final contract year drops from 11.6 mil to 8.3 mil... Might just play him out on that deal, and then see what's what. If he really does look like a brokedick throughout this season and the offseason? Yeah, **** paying him even 8 mil in 2015.

When Hali was injured last season the Chiefs defense struggled (with a healthy Berry in the line-up).

When Berry has been out this season, but Hali has still been available, the Chiefs defense hasn't missed a beat.

He was dynamic his rookie season...since then, has been over-hyped. He's a good player...but has never taken over a game or sealed a victory. When Houston went out ..KC tanked..when Berry was out..the defense got better.

I just said the same thing...you're a smart man. :)

Hali is more important but how many more years does he give us? They might both be gone. I don't think we should pay Berry(trade if possible) and we should try to restructure Hali.

There's a reason I said "when used properly".

He hasn't been.

I'd like to see if Sutton has figured that out.

That, and Kendrick Lewis is gone

We led the league in terms of defending the tight end last year.

Berry needs to be a chief for a while.

Berry's injury could give Dorsey some leverage to renegotiate a new contract. We don't need to lose Berry or hali as they are both above average players but to answer the question at hand , Hali is more important than Berry in any defense.

Hali is more valuable, especially when you consider Berry has trouble staying out of the tub

Dorsey needs to weigh Berry's on field contributions against how those millions could be reallocated. I think another talented 6-2 CB would have more impact for the money. They still have Commings too..

Berry tore an ace and has a high ankle sprain. I don't think you can say he's a broke dick yet

Commings.

LMAO

Commings will never play a meaningful down for the chiefs.

Right now? Hali. Overall, Berry because Hali is about done.

Commings and Berry are of equal value when injured...just sayin. Commings might never play..hard to know if he's glass or had bad luck.

Hali doesn't look done to me...

I really wonder if Berry isn't the cerebral safety we think he should be. Just because he works hard doesn't mean he has great football IQ. While there's a lot of reasons the defense has improved, including Sutton, I can't help but wonder if we're overrating DJ and Berry in terms of their on-field adjustments.

He is every bit as athletic as Ed Reed. I just don't see him anticipating plays the way Reed used to. Or blowing up plays as quickly as Polamalu used to.

If that's the case, then I'd rather Berry at Free Safety where he can rely more on his elite athleticism.

I agree. But if we're talking contracts, this team has a terrible habit of paying players past their prime. Somebody is going to pay Hali a ridiculous contract in his twilight years and I hope it's not the Chiefs.

His level of play has already started its natural age-related decline. He's still a beast, but for how much longer after this season?

I don't really think FS vs Ss has much difference in this defense. I also agree with milkman in that berry hasn't exactly been put in the most advantageous positions to utilize his talents.

I also don't think it's any coincidence that the defense is better in a system it's had time to learn vs changing every year

The Chiefs really need to find a way to keep Hali. Make him a deal that is good for the team and him. We can't break the bank, but we need to keep him IMO.

In this defense, Berry spends a lot of time playing more of a LB type position and as a blitzer. He's excellent at both those things. He can basically do all the things a strong safety does exceptionally well.

I think you might question the timing of when he does each of those things. Given that Berry has autonomy on the field to decide what he wants to do, the question is if Berry is used improperly because of Sutton or because of Berry's on-field adjustment. That's one really major distinction between the two positions. The Ryan defense gives Strong Safeties a lot more ability to play defensive QB -- one of the reasons they line up so close to the line.

Neither Reed nor Polamalu were/are lining up in the box 60-70% of the snaps.

By lining him up in the box, the Chiefs have gotten the outstanding run support he provides, but they've removed him from position to allow his natural playmaking ability to shine.

Berry? Never heard of him-does he play for the Chiefs?

I think the best years are behind Tamba Hali but Eric Berry still has a lot more years to tone his craft.


I love them both & would love both of them to retire as Chiefs I just know that's not going happen.

I don't think lining him up in the box is the problem. Reed started his career playing strong safety in a Ryan scheme. Berry has the flexibility to move himself around, which includes ability to move himself into more coverage responsibilities. So I think the question is if Berry is doing this to himself or if he's following Sutton's play design. I agree with you that he should be playing back more but I also think that's possible at strong safety too if either he or Sutton would make that a bigger part of his role. When you're spending 1/3 of his snaps blitzing, then obviously he's not going to be in coverage. When you spend another third in the box, same.

I think all of you under value Berry. He is a run stuffer, physical player, leader and a large part of the heart and soul of our defense. Last season he handled alot of TE coverage and he was brilliant. Witten, Gates, Cameron, Fleener, Thomas did nothing against him. I hope we find a way to keep both.

He had his best year as a pro last season.

Try again.

I think you are overstating Berry's flexibility in this scheme.

Reed never lined up in the box nearly as often as Berry has in this defense, and adjusting out of that requires more moving parts than just Berry moving.

Used properly or not Berry is a potato chip. Too injury prone for me. Nothing against him and think he is a very good player BUT.....

Regrettably I must admit.

Urc Burry

Mike mayock would have drafted earl Thomas

You put those two names together in the title, and my mind starts wandering to this:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/i...5uZr3w7Q4rI2OA

This is absolute garbage.

Hali makes EVERYTHING ELSE on defense tick. His energy pushes everybody on the field. There is very little question.

This. Berry's coverage on tight ends was nails last year except against Peyton Manning.

Hali has only been creating pressure against every LT he's faced this year.

But yeah, "about done."

No shit he's not done. He's only just crossed over 30, and is still beating every LT he faces.

LMAO

Berry.

Hali is a top 10 pass rusher but he's near the end.

Berry could play SS for another 5 years at a high level...

What natural playmaking ability? He's been given plenty of opportunities and proven he's no open field or deep threat. His strength is going downhill and making tackles around the line of scrimmage. He's basically Adam Archuleta.

You're ****ing felching crack...

I love her.

These threads always crack me up please don't stop. Ya, **** Berry he's just an over priced shitty all pro safety. Let's trade his broke dick ass.

Extend Houston and then we'll talk about these two...

Or are we just going to tag him?

for this year?

Hali.

for the future?

clearly Berry

We're almost certainly going to tag Houston. He's asking for the universe.

Plenty of opportunities?

He spends 90% of his time in the boor on man on the TE.
He has created, what?, 1 fewer turnover a year on average than Earl Thomas?

Seems like he has far fewer oppotunitie, yet make the most of those that he gets.

I wouldn't give him any more than the Solar System.

I'd give him your mother in a burlap sack if he asked for it...

The age factor would certainly give Berry the value advantage over Hali, although the injuries on Berry's legs (knee and now ankle/lower leg) seem to be adding up.

With Tamba playing like he is, it sure makes the Dee Ford pick look pretty terrible up to this point. They've gotta get that guy on the field other wise that was a huge waste

Have to ask yourself, would Berry be injury prone if he wasn't lining up in the box so much?

The guys weighs, what, 205?

He's a tough SOB, but that takes a toll.

I've been saying this since Romeo decided he should be playing LB on practically half his snaps.

He should never have been forced into that role.

The same was said about kelce.

Very good point.

Berry blitzed more than any saf3ty in the league by a mile. Let's start there. If he blitzes less, he's in coverage more. I don't see Abdullah playing the box in nearly the same way berry did and definitely not blitzing as much. Berry in an Abdullah role may play better. Which again begs the question, is it Sutton or berry that forced berry into the box or as a Blitzer? In either event, I'm leaning to berry to move to free safety but not because it's a better use of his skill set. Because I question if he has the football iq we think he has.

If we are gonna make any run at a title in the next 3 years, we are gonna NEED Berry AND Hali to be in that picture...with Berry being utilized to take advantage of his open field speed, tackling ability and overall ability he has shown in the past to be an elite playmaker. We NEED the current Tamba Hali matched with the Eric Berry from his freshman and sophomore years at Tennessee before Monte Kiffen got there and neutered him into the box guy he has been ever since.

If we can get those things going, this defense WILL BE top 5 and we will be thought of as a contender because we have an offense that can put up enough points to win big games if paired with a top level defense.

If they don't think Berry can be a top level playmaking safety going forward, then they should trade him and try to bolster another position with the pick because he's NOT worth 10/yr unless he is a game changing player.

And that's exactly what my concern was (both before and after drafting him)in utilizing him the way he has been.

Kiffen
Crennel
Sutton

All ancient coaches that still think you win by shutting down the run FIRST even after the changes to how the game is played the last 10 years.

Pffft would help also if some asshole WR from the Buffalo Bills wouldn't have taken out his knee/with a cheap shot.

Apart from that.

This thread wasn't about if Berry is a good football player...it's more about his value to the team. In a perfect world, they could afford both..KC is going to be pressed on cap space next year. The Chiefs could get something for Berry in compensation..it's about if he is a luxury at this point. Poe is going to be expensive too..

What would Berry be worth in draft picks?

I don't entirely disagree with "ancient coaches".

With the exception of the Pack, the teams that are winning SBs are teams that still value the running game, and do so effectively.

I don't agree that putting Berry in the box, however, is the smartest or best way to accomplish the task of stopping the run.

The Chiefs should trade Berry and let Hali go (his best years are behind us).

I agree. Big $$ and age don't coincide in the NFL.

Here's what you need to ask yourself. Is Berry worth it? Look at the job Ron Parker has done covering the field. He's been above average and we haven't had to worry. Abdullah has been fantastic back there as well. These two have been so good that we don't miss Berry in the slightest.
Look at what we've done against the competition we've faced? It speaks volumes that this team has not missed Eric Berry in the slightest this year.

If some slapdick GM is willing to give us a 1st rd pick, or even a 2nd plus a good player (WR) I take it.

And for the pro Hudson/Bailey/Hali club, it would not surprise me if Dorsey let's 2 of these guys, or all, leave this offseason.
People bitched about that last summer and literally NONE of those guys are missed.

We technically have capable replacements ready for most of these guys. Don't be surprised if Dorsey rolls with Abdullah, Kush, Cat, Ford and Parker next year over all these guys.

Right now he has a sprained ankle which has kept him in the hot tub for half a season - that has nothing to do with playing "linebacker".

Another major injury - a snapped ACL from getting hit downfield by Stevie Johnson - again, nothing to do with playing "linebacker".

Heel tendonitis? - nope, no "linebacker" problem there.

I know it's irrational but I just can't see us letting Hali go. He's such a nice guy, so productive, and the leadership he brings to this team is invaluable.

Can you imagine how awkward a conversation about cutting Hali would be for Dorsey?

All Ron parker has done is play Kendrick Lewis role and improved it by not getting beat deeo. He rarely forces turnovers doing that, but he keeps big plays from happening.

People scream that we don't miss berry, yet look at the turnovers we forced last year vs this year. Abdullah has done a great job playing the role he has, but he's not berry. So to say we don't miss berry in the slightest is basically, bullshit.

They're not letting guys that are producing at a high level walk. They didn't do that last year, the guys they let walk were solid but unspectacular players.

First year who cares. Next year he will start.

they also havent faced that scenario yet of signing a good productive home grown talent on their second contract. Dorsey has yet to give one besides that Bowe bullshit.