Originally Posted by Michael David Smith (Post 11739740)

*by Michael David Smith on January 4, 2013, 8:16 AM EDT

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Jeremiah Trotter played a total of seven seasons for Andy Reid in three different stints with the Eagles. And he thinks he lost a lot of games because Reid got out-coached.

“If it came down to both teams were even, talent-wise,*I think the opponent’s team would win if it came down to coaching,” Trotter said on 97.5 The Fanatic, via Philly.com. “Andy Reid got out-coached in a lot of games, man, a lot of big games,” Trotter continued. “Time outs, running the football, you know.”

Trotter said Reid’s offensive style made things different for the defense and the late defensive coordinator Jim Johnson, who ran the defense in Philadelphia until his death in 2008.

“As a defense, we understood we passed the ball too much. You know, there’s times we’re sitting over there like, ‘Man, listen. Just get us a couple of first downs so we can get a break.’ And I’m sure it frustrated Jim Johnson also,” Trotter said

Still, Trotter acknowledges that he won a lot of games during his time with Reid, and he says he would have given Reid a 7.5 or 8 on a scale of 1-10. I shudder to think what he’d say about a coach who was a 1.

Originally Posted by Why Not? (Post 11742758)

Nice to get some validation for what most of us thought. Reid is a rah rah guy who rode a borderline HOF QB and a definite HOF D coordinator to all his success.

Originally Posted by TheUte (Post 11742784)

He hasn't been out coached, he over thinks it and gets too cute.

1st and goal, run the ****ing rock 4 times if needed.

It seems more like play calling than coaching that he struggles with

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams (Post 11742791)

Goddamn he DID find his perfect QB, didn't he?

Originally Posted by RealSNR (Post 11742825)

Doug Pederson calls the plays in the preseason games.

I wonder what would happen if Clark said, "Hey Andy, I want you to let Doug do what most offensive coordinators do and have him call the plays. That's all. Keep up the good work."

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11742796)

This is funny because Trotter struggled unless he was playing for Reid, which is why he kept going back to Philly and played for them three separate times.

Originally Posted by RealSNR (Post 11742825)

Doug Pederson calls the plays in the preseason games.

I wonder what would happen if Clark said, "Hey Andy, I want you to let Doug do what most offensive coordinators do and have him call the plays. That's all. Keep up the good work."

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11742796)

This is funny because Trotter struggled unless he was playing for JIM JOHNSON, which is why he kept going back to Philly and played for them three separate times.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742839)

Jim Johnson might had something to do with that.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742843)

Andy Reid is Clark's hand picked coach.

He isn't going to do anything to rock the boat.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742839)

Jim Johnson might had something to do with that.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742839)

Jim Johnson might had something to do with that.

Originally Posted by DeepBallAlex (Post 11742803)

Reid is the typical genius. He has no common sense whatsoever.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11742852)

He had everything to do with that. But they had a system where a lot of guys on both offense and defense did great with the Eagles but struggled elsewhere. They won a ton of games and went to the playoffs almost every year, and won a lot of playoff games. Most teams would kill for that kind of success. They had a great run. Kind of surprised he'd throw anyone under the bus.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742865)

To the point, though, Trotter succeeded in Johnson's system.

He didn't go back because of Andy.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11742872)

If Jeremiah Trotter didn't trust Andy Reid, why did he re-sign with the Eagles after his initial contract expired?

:facepalm:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11742872)

If Jeremiah Trotter didn't trust Andy Reid, why did he re-sign with the Eagles after his initial contract expired?

:facepalm:

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11742876)

You ever heard of Jim Johnson??

Do you ****ing watch football??

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11742884)

OR -

I don't know, ask him.

OR -

For the money.

OR -

Because he flamed out everywhere else he went.

There's a lot of reasons.

You would just have to have a cognitive process to put that together, Dane.

Originally Posted by milkman (Post 11742865)

To the point, though, Trotter succeeded in Johnson's system.

He didn't go back because of Andy.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11742910)

Yeah, I agree... but Reid was basically the GM in Philadelphia. He had the final say in how all of those teams were built. And Trotter re-signed with them twice.

I'm just as critical of Andy as anyone. I said from the very beginning he's terrible at clock management and too pass happy. And he hasn't changed in 15 years. I still maintain that if they dumped Alex Smith tomorrow, everyone would rejoice but Andy would want another QB who excels in the short passing game. That's his thing.

But, this idea that he's outcoached in pretty much every game (the premise of this thread) is being way overdramatic. The guy has some major flaws but he's a top 10 coach. He's only had like 2 or 3 losing seasons in almost two decades or work, numerous playoff wins and deep playoff runs. You'd only find a handful of guys with a better resume, and that means something because Reid has pretty much built every team he's coached.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11742753)

Good coaches don't get out coached in a lot of games.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11742894)

Of which, you have zero.

If Trotter had no faith in Reid, he would have signed elsewhere.

How ****ing dumb are you, exactly?

Originally Posted by Dave Lane (Post 11742999)

He is literally a man standing out in a field.

Originally Posted by Chromatic (Post 11742889)

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Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743016)

Players don't re-sign, again and again, with coaching staffs and organizations in which they think suck.

Assuming that Trotter signed with the Eagles repeatedly because they were his only option completely invalidates his statement.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11742910)

Yeah, I agree... but Reid was basically the GM in Philadelphia. He had the final say in how all of those teams were built. And Trotter re-signed with them twice.

I'm just as critical of Andy as anyone. I said from the very beginning he's terrible at clock management and too pass happy. And he hasn't changed in 15 years. I still maintain that if they dumped Alex Smith tomorrow, everyone would rejoice but Andy would want another QB who excels in the short passing game. That's his thing.

But, this idea that he's outcoached in pretty much every game (the premise of this thread) is being way overdramatic. The guy has some major flaws but he's a top 10 coach. He's only had like 2 or 3 losing seasons in almost two decades or work, numerous playoff wins and deep playoff runs. You'd only find a handful of guys with a better resume, and that means something because Reid has pretty much built every team he's coached.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11743051)

Jeremiah Trotter said what he said for a reason.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743052)

Attention whore?

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11742942)

Either the game is fixed like professional wrestling, or Reid is a bad coach.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11743049)

Jim Johnson is the reason Trotter resigned with Philly.

No one thought Jim Johnson sucked.

In fact, the evidence shows that Jim Johnson was the reason Philly went to 4 straight NFC Championship games.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11743072)

Evidence shows? What are you, Matlock? What evidence is that?

I agree, Jim Johnson was a great defensive coordinator and the Eagles were not a better team after he died. But they had a top 10 offense most years. They were good teams. You don't have that kind of sustained run without being a good team on every side of the ball. And Reid was the guy who made all the football decisions and hired Jim Johnson in the first place. The excuses this places make for success are ridiculous.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11743065)

This is my whole point :

Either he's a terrible coach or he throws games on purpose.

Pick one.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11743075)

Reid w/Johnson :

Reg season :
97-62-1
Playoffs :
10-7

Reid w/o Johnson :
Reg season :
53-44
Playoffs :
0-3

I rest my case.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 11743094)

If reid is one of the best, nfl coaching is at a definite low point. The guy routinely blows games with complete unawareness of the situation. I realize the chiefs had to have a name coach in their situation at the time, but reid was and is a guy who is known for melting down in tight situations. There's no debate about it.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743097)

Despite the meltdown here we did not lose to Denver because of Reid.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 11743094)

If reid is one of the best, nfl coaching is at a definite low point. The guy routinely blows games with complete unawareness of the situation. I realize the chiefs had to have a name coach in their situation at the time, but reid was and is a guy who is known for melting down in tight situations. There's no debate about it.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743097)

Despite the meltdown here we did not lose to Denver because of Reid. Take away two of the five turnovers and this place would be talking about how good he is.

bunch of ****ing drama queens here.

Originally Posted by Sweet Daddy Williams (Post 11743134)

And there it was.



I am getting genuinely goddamned tired of watching this cavalcade of excuse-makers for this organization. If the Chiefs were an employee of a company, they would be long-fired and forgotten at this point.

Or, in plain English:

The "good" is NOT outweighing the bad.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11743110)

His playcalling has always been predictable. He hasn't changed in 17 years.

Originally Posted by Rausch (Post 11743240)

This, and this is all that matters.

It doesn't matter if you're predictable conservative like Marty or predictable risky like Mike Martz, it's bad. It leads to giving up an edge. It gives an advantage.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 11743094)

If reid is one of the best, nfl coaching is at a definite low point. The guy routinely blows games with complete unawareness of the situation. I realize the chiefs had to have a name coach in their situation at the time, but reid was and is a guy who is known for melting down in tight situations. There's no debate about it.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743379)

I can't believe that anyone thought that Kubiak "out coached" Reid. If so, that's a joke. The Chiefs didn't execute and turned over the ball five times.

That's why they lost.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743386)

Exactly. Kubiak's coaching was so bad it appears that Manning started ignoring him and running his own offense.

Originally Posted by tk13 (Post 11743339)

You just have to execute.

Originally Posted by rabblerouser (Post 11743396)

Reid out coached his own damn self.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743379)

NFL head coaches have always been "bad", which is why so many are fired and hired each year. And the reason for this is simple:

There is only so much one man can do from the sidelines.

Players have to execute. Plain and simple. When players execute, teams win, which makes head coaches look "great". When players don't execute, head coaches look like fools, allowing everyone to criticize.

Reid has won far more games than he's lost, making him a good head coach. He's definitely one of the best at game planning and scheming. He does his "thing" well but once it's off script, he has as many problems as anyone else in the league, which is why you'll always hear commentators say "He just needs to stick with the game plan".

I can't believe that anyone thought that Kubiak "out coached" Reid. If so, that's a joke. The Chiefs didn't execute and turned over the ball five times.

That's why they lost.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 11743405)

I don't think he's "bad". When I criticize Reid, it's rarely anything to do with playcalling. It's usually pertaining to him being oblivious to clock, down, and distance situations, of which there's a long track record. He's one of the last guys on earth I'd want managing my team in a critical 2 minute situation.

Originally Posted by TheUte (Post 11742784)

He hasn't been out coached, he over thinks it and gets too cute.

1st and goal, run the ****ing rock 4 times if needed.

It seems more like play calling than coaching that he struggles with

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz (Post 11743432)

wrong


Reid setup a game plan against Denver that was the exact opposite of what it should have been. We used a misdirection,lateral offense against a undersized,speed defense. That is a mistake from day 1 of the game plan. Reid was either too stupid or stubborn to use the correct game plan.

The fact that we don't have a power back on the team indicates that Reid has no plan to ever change regardless of the opponent.

Andy Reid was a good guy to bring in to turn the organization around but this should be his last year in Kansas City.

Originally Posted by Brock (Post 11743405)

I don't think he's "bad". When I criticize Reid, it's rarely anything to do with playcalling. It's usually pertaining to him being oblivious to clock, down, and distance situations, of which there's a long track record. He's one of the last guys on earth I'd want managing my team in a critical 2 minute situation.

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz (Post 11743432)

wrong


Reid setup a game plan against Denver that was the exact opposite of what it should have been. We used a misdirection,lateral offense against a undersized,speed defense. That is a mistake from day 1 of the game plan. Reid was either too stupid or stubborn to use the correct game plan.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743437)

I just don't understand the criticism and hate towards Reid for Thursday night's loss. I can't recall any team at any point in time overcoming five turnovers to win a game against a team as formidable as the Broncos and their HOF QB.

I could see how people would go nuts if he had called and end around featuring James O'Shaunessey or Frankie Hammond. But Reid put the ball in the hands of his best offensive player and that player failed to execute.

Let's not pretend like Reid didn't do the smart thing. And for those of you that counter with "play for OT", which would have been foolish against Manning anyway, as Reid said, he played to win the game.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743437)

I just don't understand the criticism and hate towards Reid for Thursday night's loss. I can't recall any team at any point in time overcoming five turnovers to win a game against a team as formidable as the Broncos and their HOF QB.

I could see how people would go nuts if he had called and end around featuring James O'Shaunessey or Frankie Hammond. But Reid put the ball in the hands of his best offensive player and that player failed to execute.

Let's not pretend like Reid didn't do the smart thing. And for those of you that counter with "play for OT", which would have been foolish against Manning anyway, as Reid said, he played to win the game.

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 11743437)

I just don't understand the criticism and hate towards Reid for Thursday night's loss. I can't recall any team at any point in time overcoming five turnovers to win a game against a team as formidable as the Broncos and their HOF QB.

I could see how people would go nuts if he had called and end around featuring James O'Shaunessey or Frankie Hammond. But Reid put the ball in the hands of his best offensive player and that player failed to execute.

Let's not pretend like Reid didn't do the smart thing. And for those of you that counter with "play for OT", which would have been foolish against Manning anyway, as Reid said, he played to win the game.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743440)

Just curious, what coaching experience do you have?

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz (Post 11743453)

You heard him, everyone on the board that hasn't coached in college or the NFL needs to get the **** out. You're opinion's are invalid.


of course since you haven't coached anything then should lead the way out the CP door.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743440)

Just curious, what coaching experience do you have?

Originally Posted by Mr. Laz (Post 11743453)

You heard him, everyone on the board that hasn't coached in college or the NFL needs to get the **** out. You're opinion's are invalid.


of course since you haven't coached anything then should lead the way out the CP door.

Originally Posted by splatbass (Post 11743485)

I didn't say that. Learn to read. I asked because I want to know how you know what the proper game plan would be. I am guessing you've never coached and get your "experience" playing Madden, a simulation game written by software geeks who also never played or coached football.

In short, why should I take your opinion seriously? What game plan have you ever put together?

Convince me.