Thin and young Secondary Thoughts
 

Our Defense is now down a 3rd player in the secondary. All 3 of these players were high quality veteran players that were important to our team and Defense.
Peters has been exceptional. But his own youth almost got the most of him a couple of times as even he alluded too. He mentioned that the veterans helped calm him down.
I do not really know what is available from the FA pool. I know there seems like some good prospects in the draft at the CB position, can they have as much impact in their rookie season as Peters did though is the real question.
Don't know much about the Safety pool in the draft. I wouldn't be surprised if we spend our first two rounds on the secondary.

I hope we sign at least one vet and don't go that young.

I love the idea of Karl Joseph in the first.. Corner is more pressing, but as much as we use our safeties I'd love the idea of taking him... It might be a little early, but I don't think he'd be there in the second. He's the total package for a safety.. Great in coverage, and great in run support. He's also got that Tyrann Mathieu versatility.. I don't think he'd have a problem covering man in the slot

Sanders Commings is ready to break a leg.

Hope for Eli Apple but WJIII or Alexander would be ok in the first. From the rankings I have seen I was hoping maybe Von Bell or Joseph might be there in the 2cd.

I'd think they'd look later in the draft for safeties as they need more 4 and 5 type safeties vs immediate starters

Every single training camp/preseason, Dorsey takes the notion that our secondary sucks and kicks it in the balls.

Fans are stupid. Dorsey is smart.

We're gonna be fine. We'll come up with a solution, if we even need one.

Gaines and Peters will be more than fine as the starting corners in base defense.

Berry and Parker will be fine in base defense.

I think moving Fleming to safety is gonna pay dividends.

I'm a bit concerned how we're gonna do in nickel and dime, but Dorsey has earned the benefit of the doubt on building the secondary.

1) we really need that third rounder back.
2) Houston needs to be healthy by midseason and going into the postseason.
3) every guy in the front 7 has extra motivation next year. Poe and Howard are playing for new deals...DJ and Hali has sense of urgency due to age...Ford is playing for respect..Houston and Bailey are on a mission.

Unless we are able to get some decent vet FA I think "later in the draft" will not equate to helping the team this season at the safety position. We have Berry, Parker and Sorensen who is really a ST than a starting safety.

810 AM said that Fleming was moved bc his best play in 2014 was in zone coverage. He played mostly press last year and got burnt.

Gotta think Dorsey views this as Ron Parker version 2.0

I am not worried at all at this point. Dorsey has been able to find what has been needed. I am just curious where everyone thinks that might come from in the draft, FA and for which positions.

They don't "need" immediate starter types with what they've already got on board.

No they don't but a 4th or 5th round talent is going to get abused when they do rotations. Sutton likes to use those sets that require more than 2 safeties. Don't forget a viable insurance policy in case of injury.

I'm also of the opinion that Fleming will be a solid safety for sub packages.

Why? There are good players that come out of those rounds every year.

Just depends what they ask them to do.

Haven't seen anything that suggests he would have to be taken at 28. Seems to have the "injury concern" label floating around with him, that with the depth at the position should put him in the mid-day 2 range.

Players of the same quality of Branch, Abdullah as rookies in the 4th, 5th or later rounds. Maybe the occasional but it is definitely not the norm.

I was just thinking this. Another Ron Parker type would be great even with Fleming.

We need good cover guys and we play both press and zone. DeAndre-Houston Carson is a guy later who could fill that role if they choose that route. Played as a press CB and safety in college.

I think he goes with those sets out of nessesary rather than anything else.

Remember, we were without SS for 3 games and Gaines went on IR in the second game...otherwise, Parker wouldn't have been the nickel corner.

Gaines would have.

Hopefully they have confidence in Steven Nelson to fill that role this year and were also able to add a CB in the draft and we stay healthy.

Hmmm..I thought the title of this thread was "Thin and Young Secretary Thoughts." I was going to recommend calling Cordell and Cordell.

Branch and Abdullah according to Football Outsiders were responsible for 39% and 39% defensive snaps last year (about 430 snaps each), they are about 80% one full time starting safety platooning together.

If you're selling me on the idea that those 800 snaps now go to Fleming, Sorenson & rookie safety I might puke. That's a massive drop in talent.

Parker will be back at safety.

Parker already led the defense in snap count last year and he wasn't a full time corner anyway. He still played safety last year too. He can't get anymore snaps he's already maxed out and never leaves the field, so it doesn't matter where we put him.

You're still losing those 800 snaps from Branch and Abdullah no matter how you slice it whether with 2 safeties or 1 safety and a slot CB. it's still minus 2 platoon starters in the secondary.

Gotta think that this is where Dorsey cements his status. Can he do it?

I don't think it's a drop in 'talent' at all. Honestly, Fleming is a more talented player than Abdullah and Branch, IMO.

That said, it's unquestionably a drop in experience and as a consequence, likely a drop in productivity at least in the early-going.

But that's why coaches get paid and that's what happens to talented teams in a cap league. You simply have to continue to find cost/resource effective solutions to filling holes.

Using a first round pick on your 3rd safety is damn sure not a resource effective solution, IMO.

I worry a fair amount about CB2 but the NCB/#3 safety should be able to be filled with Fleming and a mid-round pick. There will be some growing pains but that's life.

if Fleming has to play slot CB for us I don't trust him being able to cover anyone, mainly because he hasn't really shown he can cover anyone.

I object to the idea of a football thread on a football forum!

Man from what I remember Fleming was like burnt toast out there. I don't see him as an upgrade at all.
I sure don't want to pick a S in the first but I don't want to wait until the 4th or later and then have to depend on that person.
Gaines and Nelson haven't proven anything yet other than they have been injured and should not be solely relied upon either.
At this point I imagine Dorsey will figure something decent out of it all. We are going to be pressed to replace what Smith meant to the CB position as well as replacing two starter quality safeties all in one offseason there is likely going to be a down grade overall in the secondary.

He can't press worth a damn and his man skills are deficient at best, but the NCB isn't going to be tasked with covering most SWRs in man. His deficiencies will be masked a lot in the slot and he can just use his athleticism.

I think he'd be fine there.

Ultimately it's depth that worries me more than the front line guys. If we ran with Peters, Gaines, Fleming, Berry, Parker as our primary 5 DBs, that's average at worst and has the potential to remain among the best secondaries in football. But boy, it doesn't take more than one or two injuries for that unit to fall to hell in a hurry.

Different question w/r/t Gaines and Nelson.

I absolutely believe the first rounder should go towards a CB and the moment that only one remains of Alexander, Apple and Jackson, Dorsey had better be ready to trade up and grab him. They absolutely cannot exit the first without one of those guys, IMO.

Because out wide, the talent has absolutely been reduced and that's how the Chiefs will have to address it.

I'm responding to the idea that we should take a safety in the first - that's just batty. This safety group is still plenty talented and getting a 2nd round player at the back of the 1st to act as a backup is just a horrid use of resources.

Totally agree.
Unless we sign a decent FA vet safety, or get our 3rd back, I hope we draft a S in the 2cd. I just don't believe the talent will be there at the safety position, 4th round, that late in the draft compared to say the G spot that needs some attention also.

But the thing is, if you take a safety in the 4th or 5th round, you aren't going to depend on him to be the guy back there. He's gonna be the 4th or 5th in line for that.

Hell, they've scrapped together guys like demps, Coleman and turned them around. I wouldn't put it past them to find another guy like that

Heading into 2014 we were much thinner and less talented in the secondary and still managed to have an elite pass defense.

I'm not too worried. Address some things before the start of the season, yeah, but at the end of the day if the front 7 is doing their job and the coaching staff is doing theirs, we're going to have a really good pass defense again.

We have Berry, Parker and Sorenson. We lost both of our second string safeties. Sorensen is listed as the 3rd string because he is primarily for ST. The players that we bring in should stay ahead of Sorensen on the depth chart and although you might say they would be 3 and 4 they are both actually 2cd string that will play a lot of snaps. They have to be better than Sorensen IMO.
The Safety position has become more and more important, therefore you don't find the talent we need in those late rounds. The position is "overvalued or overdrafted" similar to but not to the extent of the QB, CB, OLB/DE positions.
I like Parker but he is actually more of a crossover type that can and does go back and forth between S and CB which can help the defense hide some of its coverage schemes. He wasn't the starter at the beginning of last year for a reason.

Abdullah played next to DJ in nickel packages. Could see the Chiefs drafting another guy to play that role, almost even like Deone Bucannon or Mark Barron.

Parker was a starter at safety week 1, but was forced to play nickel when Gaines went down. He played very well at safety in 2014 and that's where they intended on him playing when they re-signed him last offseason. I don't know what you're talking about.

Yeah, Parker was the starting SS last year week 1 and likely will be this year too..

They'll draft a shitload of corners this year...

They'll take 2, if they don't sign one before then

I guess the injury is why I don't recall him being the starter. As I recall thinking that Parker got that contract because he could play either position in the secondary at a high level. Parker has went back and forth between the two positions a couple of times as I recall.

When you watch the film on the games without Sean Smith, it wasn't as bad overall as you might think.

Fleming got burned in man coverage vs Denver, but he was a good tackler to his credit. I think he does need to have things in front of him to do better overall like he showed in 2014.
Marcus Cooper was a complete disaster out there. My god that guy sucks so much. seeing him get raped by Rodgers was bad enough. Dude gave up 2 TD's that game.

It just seems like depth was our biggest issue bc Gaines was actually pretty good. Yeah he tore his ACL when he gave up a TD but besides that he looked solid.

It woukdnt surprise me at all to see Dorsey skip CB round 1 and trust Peters/Gaines/Nelson. I know Nelson didn't play much last year, but I believe a big part of that was bc Fleming and Cooper had experience opening the season and then Nelson needed to adjust.
But if they do want a CB, it's gotta be someone capable of covering the slot really well. IMO Jackson and Alexander seem like the best choices to cover that role from our pick at 28.

But is there really a huge dropoff if we chose a guy like Maurice Canady in round 2?

LMAO I was trying to think of a way to bring his name up earlier...nice

Personally, I like thin and young.....

Read this thread as "Thin and Young Secretary thoughts" and was excited to weigh in.

BossChief touched on this a little on the first page, but the main reason(s) I'm not worried about the secondary a whole lot...

https://arrowheadseaofred.files.word...efsprobowl.jpg

http://www.chiefs.com/assets/images/...ots-IMage2.jpg

I like this 'Young, dumb and full of c**' secondary

Too bad we will be missing the man in the middle there, our best pass rusher for at least the first part of the season if not the entire season. The men on either side are not getting any younger. Hali is not what he once was and is another year older.

False. It's more likely that Houston is playing week 1 than he misses the entire season.

His timetable is 6-12 months.

Chris Harris came back in 6 months two years ago. Von Miller came back in 7 months that same year.

There's a damn good chance Houston is back week 1.

He might be and hope he is there, but missing all of the off season training and camp is not going to make him sharp out of the gate either. I know he will still be decent, although not the same.
We have seen what happens to players that miss all that time. They are anywhere from rusty to injured again from lack of conditioning.
Being solely positive about this situation is disingenuous at best. No the sky is not falling but it is not all sunny and roses either.

I'm not opposed to bringing in some veteran safeties, but you've gotta look at overall position cost. We're likely to have tied up alot in berry, parker.

I know you need depth, but if berry gets this big deal, he's gotta make up for having some young cheap inexperience back there.

Both of those guys had huge years with the same recovery time. I'm not being soley positive as much as asking why should we be as negative as you and others mostly are, when recent history indicates otherwise.

I am not being negative. I am being realistic. There is a range in those time frame stats for a reason. You can't expect everyone to be back in the shortest end of that range. The more people make it back at the short end of the time frame the more people expect that to be the case. Then when someone doesn't make it back within that shortened time frame the player starts to take blame about not doing enough or something of their fault no matter the truth.
The best option is to expect him back in 9 months that way you are not pissed when he doesn't make it back in 6 months which is more unrealistic although possible.

several hence the parody thread.

I clicked on this thinking thread title said

Thin and young Secretary Thoughts

ROFL

DOH!

PS - I'm in favor of them though!

Sorry, but you aren't being "realistic" if you completely rule out him coming back week 1 and having a big year.

I'm not even saying he will or I expect that, but it's certainly a possibility and maybe even likely looking at recent history.

I haven't ruled it out. It is a possibility and more likely than it taking the full 12 months.

Ok, well you started off saying he will miss "at least the first part of the season", so I assumed that meant you were ruling that possibility out.

Bottom line is the best examples we have to go by are Harris and Miller. I think their speedy recoveries on the same team in the same year is more of an indication that Houston coming back and playing week 1 is very realistic if not likely, than it was just some miracle.

I was big on WJ III but I worry about his physical strength and tackling abilities. Wouldn't be surprised if we pass on him round two. Definitely not round 1 material

Have the schedules been released yet? It would be nice to not have as difficult of a start this year

Yes he will OTAs Training Camp and he will not be the same for the first couple of weeks at least when he does come back.

Draft 1 corner early, pick another one late. Need a safety in this draft too. Trade away a 2017 pick to get a 3rd/4th rounder for this year

I don't disagree with that, but Houston at 75% with a fresh Hali, an improved Dee Ford, and the rest of our front 7 would still help offset the losses in our secondary.

Usually gets released a week before the draft. Almost there.

Everyone keeps mocking a Corner to the chiefs, which makes sense, but I dunno, doesn't seem like a Dorsey move.

Thanks.

I'm thinking this too man. Aside from DL, I wonder if Will Fuller could be an option? Looks like he's gonna be there and he fits the scheme really well

Yeah, because he has never drafted corner, especially early....

:shake:

They've never reached on an immediate need just because of said need.

If corner matches up,theyll take one. If not, I could see them going another direction.

For some reason, I get the vibe that they're pretty satisfied with the wr's they've got. Fuller makes sense, but so does Sheppard in round 2 (potentially).

I dunno what they're gonna do.

Passing on Boykin pisses me off. He signed a 1 year $840k deal with Carolina. Tied for the most INT's from the slot with Matheiu over the last 3 years.

Dorsey must have that much faith in his guys.

IIRC, Houston held out of the entire offseason program going into 2014 so I'm not overly worried about him missing that stuff. He's smart enough and been in the game long enough with us that it shouldn't make a difference.

Yeah, I thought that was a nice deal.

They had interest in Heyward,dunno if they're done looking or what.

Is there any decent corners still out there?

With dorsey going to Ole Miss, wonder if Nkemdiche is on their radar?

That's what I'm thinking. Maybe Treadwell though.

Nkemdiche has Dorsey written all over him.

Bring in NELSON@

I'd say it's nkemdiche. Treadwell doesn't seem to be a fit here. He doesn't run great routes and it's a workout warrior.

The whole BPA/need debate is often conjecture at best. What fans perceive as need and what organization's deem as need can differ. We are not privy to remaining FA interests the Chiefs may have with players. We are at the stage of free agency where many of the remaining FA's out there will be picked up after the draft when a team feels it needs to round out positions for depth.

Fans aren't stupid, and are aware of roster deficiencies, but how much of an emphasis individual teams place on need vs. BPA varies from franchise to franchise. Every GM is going to "say" they take the BPA at any and every given pick, but there are so many factors that go into evaluations of what truly constitutes your BPA: production, health/injury history, experience, measureables, character, etc.

Look at Dorsey's recent early picks:
Peters? - definite need, and arguable BPA (where as some teams stayed away because of character concerns, so for some he was not the BPA)
Ford? - arguable about immediate need, and arguable about BPA. I believe the Ford pick was based on supply/demand that draft year for pass rushers and an aging Hali consideration.
Fisher? - definite need, but at the time also merited legitimate #1 overall consideration given a weak draft class especially at the top. Not a lot of elite blue-chip talent that year or consensus prospects.

Corner this year is a need whether it be slot or #2, unless they are ready to turn Gaines and Nelson loose as starters (which could happen). The DL rotation could be shored up and when factoring contract situations, maybe a buffer against Poe and Howard could be brought in.
Personally my gut feeling says the Chiefs will go with a secondary player (Corner or safety) early given the departures of Smith/Branch/Abdullah. The DL depth in this draft should mean great talent is available later.

Where does Nkemdiche fit though? With Poe, Bailey, Howard... Not a lot of snaps to go around

They just don't seem to reach for the draft. They do a good job of letting it come to them.

I agree with your post though.

It just seems alot like the year we were so badly needing a wr and ended up with Ford where everyone and their brother had us going wr.

3rd downs to start. Just let him get up and go I'd imagine.

I don't think Dorsey cares about that. He's not drafting for next year. Poe is a FA after this season, then Howard the next, and Bailey in three years.

If he feels Nkemdiche is BPA he will take him.

As for this year, I think Nkemdiche could be used as an interior pass rusher in sub packages.