ChiefsPlanet

ChiefsPlanet (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/index.php)
-   Nzoner's Game Room (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/forumdisplay.php?f=1)
-   -   Chiefs NFL teams can be fined for posting video under new policy (https://chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=302716)

teedubya 10-08-2016 10:57 PM

NFL teams can be fined for posting video under new policy
 
Darren Rovell
ESPN Senior Writer

Beginning Sunday, NFL teams can be fined for violating a newly introduced part of the league's social media policy.

According to two memos obtained by ESPN, teams can no longer shoot video inside the stadium during the game and post it on social media, nor can they use Facebook Live or Periscope to stream anything live within the stadium.

Teams also can't take highlights of what happens on the field and make it their own by using their own video or posting highlights from television directly to social media. Teams also can't turn highlights into GIFs.

In conversation with the teams, sources said that league executives want to make sure that content generated within the stadiums, including game highlights, are hosted by team websites so that the league maintains control of what is disseminated.

Violations of the policy will cost teams up to $25,000 upon the first instance, up to $50,000 the second time and up to $100,000 for each additional violation of the policy.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/1...-posting-video

hometeam 10-08-2016 11:01 PM

... my god

Hammock Parties 10-08-2016 11:02 PM

The league is eating it's own tail.

What the ****, man.

Bowser 10-08-2016 11:08 PM

I guess they're taking notice of the league wide declining attendance.

And also, **** Goodell

Discuss Thrower 10-08-2016 11:08 PM

Cuban. Was. Right.

Bowser 10-08-2016 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 12472807)
Cuban. Was. Right.

Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban sparked a huge discussion about America’s favorite sport with eyebrow-raising comments on the NFL prior to a Mavericks game Sunday. Cuban believes that if the NFL continues to expand and dominate the market, the league may eventually implode.
“I think the NFL is 10 years away from an implosion. When pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. And they’re getting hoggy. When you try to take it too far, people turn the other way. I’m just telling you, when you got a good thing and you get greedy, it always, always, always, always, always turns against you.”
Cuban expanded on those thoughts in great detail in a 1,500-word Facebook post Monday, laying out five reasons why he believes the NFL should reevaluate its strategy.
Via Facebook:

So why do I think the NFL will implode in 10 years?

1. I wouldn’t want my son playing football, would you? I’m sure helmet technology will improve over the next 10 years, but why risk it? There are plenty of sports to play. Plenty of ways to get exercise and if my son decided to do anything outside of sports and never pick up any ball of any kind, I’m fine with that. I can think of 1k things I would prefer him to get excited about doing.
As far as watching, I good with that.
I don’t think I’m alone. If we start to see a decline of popularity at the high school and then college level because kids choose other sports, it will hurt the interest in watching the NFL.

2. Player Behavior. The NBA learned this lesson. Fans don’t like to see players acting the fool. While fans may forgive players over time, advertisers have long memories.
It is hard to ask players to be warriors on the field and perfect citizens off. Across a population of more than 1500 players under the age of 30, you can bet that they will have continuing issues. With the unquenchable thirst the online and media world have for HEADLINE PORN, and the ever growing availability of pictures of those mistakes appearing online, it is not inconceivable that over the next ten years something could impact the perception of the game enough to impact attendance and viewership.

3. Their TV strategy today is perfect. Nothing wrong with expanding their Thursday night broadcasts. It is a great idea.
That said, if they continue this trend of adding games on more nights (I have been told they are looking at Saturday Nights as well) and this was the point I was making to ESPN yesterday, they risk over-saturation, a decline in interest by current, and non NFL fans feeling imposed upon because of the relative popularity of the NFL.
Some have asked, “if you can supply programming that has such huge demand on more nights , why wouldn’t you?” The answer is simple. No one wants to do the same thing every night. No matter what it is.
Sunday audiences for the NFL are big. Huge. Monday night audiences are smaller than Sunday. And Thursday are smaller than Monday. Sundays get 21.Xmm viewers on NBC/Fox, 18mm on CBS. Monday Nights get 13.7mm viewers and Thursdays get
7.1mm viewers. No question that Thursday night viewership will be much higher on CBS. Which is good for the NFL. But as you can see, there is not the same level of interest in the NFL carrying over from Sunday night to other nights of the week.
Can the NFL add more nights? Sure they can. Will they draw more viewers than most TV shows can on the nights they add? Sure they will. But is there a point of diminishing returns? No question about it.
As I said, Pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered (don’t know who said this originally).
How many days of NFL football are too many? I think they get one more night. Probably a Saturday. Simply because Saturday is a waste land on TV right now. So an NFL game on the NFL Network or broadcast TV would probably work relative to other options available to TV Networks or the NFL Network. After that, they go backwards.
After that the backlash starts. Will they take away from High School Football on Fridays? What would the general consensus be if NFL football dominated the ratings Thursday through Monday with only Tues and Wed as days off?
What will the law of unintended consequences be when the NFL is on 5 days a week. Will we see a “Who Wants to be A Millionaire ” affect?
Only time will tell. But while over playing their TV hand is a risk for the NFL, they are smart and may not even take that direction. My comments to ESPN were based on speculation in the event they do. We will see.

4. Fantasy Football. TV saturation is not the NFL’s biggest risk. What is their biggest risk? Fantasy Football. Yep Fantasy Football.
When I broached the topic of the NFL being too aggressive and possibly devolving from “piggy territory” to “Hoggy Territory”, the recurring response was that Fantasy Football is the difference. That Fantasy Football drives interest in the NFL.
Is that true? What does everyone out there think?
How much is the NFL worth in aggregate? At least an average of $1 billion dollars per team? And with the whole probably being worth more than the sum of the parts, the NFL if it was a public entity with all the teams in a single holding company, traded on the stock market, would be worth what? Half of Facebook? 3X+ Twitter or about $100 billion dollars?
Could a $100 billion dollar venture really be dependent on how many people sign up for leagues to get points for plays and bragging rights with their friends? If the answer is yes, that is a problem for the NFL and to a lesser extent all pro sports.
Does anyone believe that in 10 years Facebook will be the dominant social network? It might be. What about Twitter? Will it be a player? Will Google dominate? How will they dominate?
We all know from history that very few tech based businesses live on as they currently are forever. And 10 years is forever. And Fantasy Football at its base is a tech based form of entertainment.
I’m not saying there haven’t been quite a few online entertainment franchises that have been able to thrive over 10 plus years. There are more than a few.
What I do know is that every kid and their brother is looking for ways to create games or new forms of entertainment that pull people’s attention away from fantasy football.
Do you bet on the NFL and Fantasy Football or do you bet on the entrepreneurial field?
Could there possibly be a new technology or new form of entertainment that impacts the popularity of fantasy sports and has a big impact on not just the NFL, but all pro sports at some point in the next 10 years?
I bet yes.

5. The risk of TV changing. TV is changing. Not near as much as people think. TV subscriptions started climbing again this past quarter as Cable and Satellite distributors greatly improved their user interfaces , VOD, internet streaming and discovery. But could it change? Yes it could. Could we see more streaming and less traditional delivery? Maybe. Will that have an impact on the NFL which is one of the few programs that has so many viewers of a live program that they could be seriously and negatively impacted if streaming became the expectation for sports and tv programming? Yes. If the NFL needed to stream its games over the public internet in a net neutrality world, thats a problem for the NFL.
And if mobile consumption of the internet became dominant it could be even a bigger problem. Not just because of the technical nature of streaming mobile, but because i think there is a smaller audience of people who would want to watch the NFL on a mobile device.
The NFL, because of its audience sizes, more than any other pro sport, needs traditional tv to stay strong.
Will it. My guess is yes. But there are many who disagree with me.

You can read Cuban’s entire essay on Facebook.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/mark...osion-facebook

tk13 10-08-2016 11:27 PM

Even for the NFL, the lack of foresight here is pretty incredible. I assume Snapchat is included too. Things like Snapchat and GIFs are the way you connect with young fans these days. More than any other sport, the NFL thinks they can control everything 100% and nothing can stop them.

Easy 6 10-08-2016 11:39 PM

Its only somewhat related, but I'm on my third episode of Rams Hard Knocks right now

What a clown show

If the bald old strength and conditioning coach crinkling up paper and constantly cursing his players isnt a joke... then it has to be a joke

Nickhead 10-09-2016 12:31 AM

well, it appears it will be up to the fans to upload everything. IMO i never liked how paid professionals were allowed to post rants of their own. its really CDTTT. if a player does not like something, dont pander to the masses, go through the NFLPA. remember back in the day no video or cameras were allowed :D

kcxiv 10-09-2016 06:56 AM

I ve been losing interest in the NFL for the last few years myself. I used to be a hardcore football nut. I loved football sunday. I used to eat up stuff like training camp and radio talk shows. I have paid no attention to radio talk shows and the training camps the last 2 years. Almost didnt even buy sunday ticket until i got it for 100 bucks because my nephew goes to college.

Oddly enough my interest in baseball and basketball has been growing the last few years.

notorious 10-09-2016 07:25 AM

Jesus.


Why are they trying to make themselves so unlikable?

displacedinMN 10-09-2016 07:29 AM

Unless the NFL figures out a better social media policy.
The day is coming where fans will have their accounts shut down for even talking about the NFL. CP will be blown up by the NFL.

HemiEd 10-09-2016 07:41 AM

I don't care but it is a pretty big mistake IMO.

The NFL is doomed to have their fan base die off just like the NHRA if they continue on this path.

scho63 10-09-2016 07:46 AM

http://images.freeimages.com/images/...lden-goose.jpg

scho63 10-09-2016 07:48 AM

http://beaconnews.ca/wp-content/uplo...lden-goose.png

hometeam 10-09-2016 08:04 AM

This is gonna be like the Streisand effect in a way.

They need to learn from the NBA who embraces its fanbase that makes videos/gifs/etc etc

Chief Roundup 10-09-2016 08:08 AM

And the NFL is wondering why viewer ship and profits are down.

ChiefsCountry 10-09-2016 08:10 AM

It's because the television rights are the meal ticket that pays the bills.

Chief Roundup 10-09-2016 08:19 AM

So is the NFL Network still going to post videos from their Facebook page? After all they don't have anymore control of the dissemination from Facebook anymore than the teams.

Discuss Thrower 10-09-2016 09:00 AM

So stupid.

How the **** can you equate gifs with an unauthorized audio visual dissemination of a game?

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 09:23 AM

It's 2016, so this is part of life.

Quote:

so that the league maintains control of what is disseminated
While it sucks, in the PC world we live in, corporations feel the need to control what's said so they minimize damage from mistakes.

DaneMcCloud 10-09-2016 10:11 AM

I'm don't see why this is a big deal, as it only applies while the game is happening, not after.

If people want to see videos during the game, go to the team's website.

Does anyone really go to Snapchat or Facebook during a game to see highlights?

kcxiv 10-09-2016 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryDayz (Post 12473034)
It's 2016, so this is part of life.



While it sucks, in the PC world we live in, corporations feel the need to control what's said so they minimize damage from mistakes.

its not though, its the only ****ing league that does this. NBA and MLB arent so ****ing tight with this> They embrace it. NBA was the first to do this and its growing pretty fast all around the ****ing world.

Its just NFL Being bitches like they always have been. They do it with EVERYTHING.

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 12473095)
I'm don't see why this is a big deal, as it only applies while the game is happening, not after.

If people want to see videos during the game, go to the team's website.

Does anyone really go to Snapchat or Facebook during a game to see highlights?

I think it's the fences the NFL keeps drawing-in ever closer.

Bowser 10-09-2016 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 12473095)
I'm don't see why this is a big deal, as it only applies while the game is happening, not after.

If people want to see videos during the game, go to the team's website.

Does anyone really go to Snapchat or Facebook during a game to see highlights?

True, but it certainly has the feel of them laying the foundation for a new precedent.

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 12473104)
its not though, its the only ****ing league that does this. NBA and MLB arent so ****ing tight with this> They embrace it. NBA was the first to do this and its growing pretty fast all around the ****ing world.

Its just NFL Being bitches like they always have been. They do it with EVERYTHING.

They certainly are doing some things that are angering people.

kcxiv 10-09-2016 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaneMcCloud (Post 12473095)
I'm don't see why this is a big deal, as it only applies while the game is happening, not after.

If people want to see videos during the game, go to the team's website.

Does anyone really go to Snapchat or Facebook during a game to see highlights?

you would be ****ing amazed how much Facebook and Snapchat have invaded the world we live in today.

DaneMcCloud 10-09-2016 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kcxiv (Post 12473110)
you would be ****ing amazed how much Facebook and Snapchat have invaded the world we live in today.

No, I get it, it's just that I don't understand why anyone would choose Facebook or Snapchat over a team website for highlights while the game is being played.

DaneMcCloud 10-09-2016 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowser (Post 12473108)
True, but it certainly has the feel of them laying the foundation for a new precedent.

Keep in mind, they're not restricting the fans from posting videos to social media, just the actual teams that are playing.

Iowanian 10-09-2016 10:44 AM

What a herd of clueless jerkoffs.

SAUTO 10-09-2016 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASS11 (Post 12472801)
The league is eating it's own tail.

What the ****, man.

They are coming after you.

Hammock Parties 10-09-2016 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 12473146)
They are coming after you.

No they're not. ROFL

SAUTO 10-09-2016 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASS11 (Post 12473156)
No they're not. ROFL

That's what's next. I mean they only state that it's all their property at least a couple times a broadcast.

Hammock Parties 10-09-2016 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 12473159)
That's what's next. I mean they only state that it's all their property at least a couple times a broadcast.

They're still not coming after "me." ROFL

Bwana 10-09-2016 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iowanian (Post 12473135)
What a herd of clueless jerkoffs.

Yeah they don't seem to get it at all. They keep pulling wagons full of crap while their ratings tank. Their spin as to why, would make Baghdad Bob blush.
https://somuchsatire.files.wordpress...dbob.jpg?w=660

NFL tries to reassure teams as TV ratings drop

The National Football League has sent a memo to team owners seeking to ease concerns about the ratings decline that has hit football this fall.
Through the first four weeks of the season, NFL viewership has declined 11 percent, and among the crucial adults 18-49 demographic that advertisers covet, ratings are down 12 percent.

“While our partners, like us, would have liked to see higher ratings, they remain confident in the NFL and unconcerned about a long-term issue,” the letter from NFL senior executives Brian Rolapp and Howard Katz said, adding that over the last 15 years, ratings viewership has grown 27 percent and that football “continues to be far and away the most powerful programming on television and the best place for brands and advertisers.”
he league said the large drop in ratings for prime-time games on ESPN, CBS and NBC is likely because of “unprecedented interest in the Presidential election.”

On Sunday afternoons, the audience for Fox News, CNN and MSNBC has increased as well, and the league believes that is cutting into those games. The letter also cited the 2000 election as another time when NFL ratings took a hit due to coverage of the race between George Bush and Al Gore and the subsequent legal battle over the results.

As for a potential backlash by some viewers angered at players not standing for the national anthem to protest of police brutality, the NFL said it sees no evidence to that being a factor in declining ratings: “In fact, our own data shows that the perception of the NFL and its players is actually up in 2016.”

The NFL said it was issuing the memo to all the teams in response to media inquiries about the decline in ratings. Long seen as invincible against the trends and changing media habits that have negatively affected other programming, network executives and advertisers have been scrambling to figure out if this is a short-term blip because of political news or the start of a long-term trend.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/1...ings-drop.html

SAUTO 10-09-2016 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASS11 (Post 12473161)
They're still not coming after "me." ROFL

That what it's coming to. You. Guys like you.

Hammock Parties 10-09-2016 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 12473170)
That what it's coming to. You. Guys like you.

And what exactly are they going to stop me from doing?

SAUTO 10-09-2016 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASS11 (Post 12473171)
And what exactly are they going to stop me from doing?

What ever they want to stop you from doing I would say

Hammock Parties 10-09-2016 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JASONSAUTO (Post 12473175)
What ever they want to stop you from doing I would say

Can't stop the signal, bro.

Discuss Thrower 10-09-2016 11:22 AM

It's 2016 and you just made a Serenity reference.





...

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bwana (Post 12473165)
Yeah they don't seem to get it at all. They keep pulling wagons full of crap while their ratings tank. Their spin as to why, would make Baghdad Bob blush.
https://somuchsatire.files.wordpress...dbob.jpg?w=660

NFL tries to reassure teams as TV ratings drop

The National Football League has sent a memo to team owners seeking to ease concerns about the ratings decline that has hit football this fall.
Through the first four weeks of the season, NFL viewership has declined 11 percent, and among the crucial adults 18-49 demographic that advertisers covet, ratings are down 12 percent.

“While our partners, like us, would have liked to see higher ratings, they remain confident in the NFL and unconcerned about a long-term issue,” the letter from NFL senior executives Brian Rolapp and Howard Katz said, adding that over the last 15 years, ratings viewership has grown 27 percent and that football “continues to be far and away the most powerful programming on television and the best place for brands and advertisers.”
he league said the large drop in ratings for prime-time games on ESPN, CBS and NBC is likely because of “unprecedented interest in the Presidential election.”

On Sunday afternoons, the audience for Fox News, CNN and MSNBC has increased as well, and the league believes that is cutting into those games. The letter also cited the 2000 election as another time when NFL ratings took a hit due to coverage of the race between George Bush and Al Gore and the subsequent legal battle over the results.

As for a potential backlash by some viewers angered at players not standing for the national anthem to protest of police brutality, the NFL said it sees no evidence to that being a factor in declining ratings: “In fact, our own data shows that the perception of the NFL and its players is actually up in 2016.”

The NFL said it was issuing the memo to all the teams in response to media inquiries about the decline in ratings. Long seen as invincible against the trends and changing media habits that have negatively affected other programming, network executives and advertisers have been scrambling to figure out if this is a short-term blip because of political news or the start of a long-term trend.

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2016/1...ings-drop.html

I'm sure they'll claim it's my age, and perhaps Chief's fans being butthurt because of the whole 1970-Present thing, but I know in the 2000-2005 time-frame I was all-in for the Chiefs, and these days football is anything but #1. So Chiefs fans might be not be a good place for the NFL to get to the bottom of the ratings issue they've seen so far this year.

But lord knows when I, at 11:50am on a Sunday, decide to put a turkey breast on the smoker, or do yard work, or hang-out in the the CP DC, instead of watch the kickoff of a game, well it's kind of clear I'm some part of that 11, or 12, percent.

But I'll clearly admit that, in my case, a lot of it is that I don't feel my team's owner/leadership is going to fix the team's problems and will continue the 1970-Present trend. It's a rather helpless feeling when you're in a division with the likes of Denver that enjoys the league's #1 natural home field advantage (lack of oxygen), and and owner/GM who have what it takes to get a better 53 out there year-in and year-out. It just sucks to continually subject yourself to one of the league's perennial whipping-boys.

Otter 10-09-2016 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryDayz (Post 12473211)
I'm sure they'll claim it's my age, and perhaps Chief's fans being butthurt because of the whole 1970-Present thing, but I know in the 2000-2005 time-frame I was all-in for the Chiefs, and these days football is anything but #1. So Chiefs fans might be not be a good place for the NFL to get to the bottom of the ratings issue they've seen so far this year.

But lord knows when I, at 11:50am on a Sunday, decide to put a turkey breast on the smoker, or do yard work, or hang-out in the the CP DC, instead of watch the kickoff of a game, well it's kind of clear I'm some part of that 11, or 12, percent.

But I'll clearly admit that, in my case, a lot of it is that I don't feel my team's owner/leadership is going to fix the team's problems and will continue the 1970-Present trend. It's a rather helpless feeling when you're in a division with the likes of Denver that enjoys the league's #1 natural home field advantage (lack of oxygen), and and owner/GM who have what it takes to get a better 53 out there year-in and year-out. It just sucks to continually subject yourself to one of the league's perennial whipping-boys.

No, I've used to be a rabid NFL fan and don't even watch games anymore unless it's really convenient and I'm very comfortably in the median demographics. It has a lot to do with ESPN turning into a bad reality show, making athletes wear hot pink socks for a serious cause that actually only received 40% of the profits, refs having way to much influence in the games outcome, games only on the NFL channel, and shit like this.

Deciding to follow Jan Brady of the NFL has a lot to do with it as well but it's not the only reason.

And Durango, CO has about 1200 ft over those pussies in Denver. :D

Discuss Thrower 10-09-2016 12:13 PM

The NFL just isn't compelling football unless you have a vested interest in a particular team.

College? Odds are if it's televised game, it'll be closely contested game and has actual ramifications on which teams are contending for championships or are entertaining rivalry games. And this is on a weekly basis outside of the two week stretch where the big boys schedule cupcakes.

The majority of games played today matter very little to who will be contending for the SB.

Dayze 10-09-2016 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HemiEd (Post 12472956)
I don't care but it is a pretty big mistake IMO.

The NFL is doomed to have their fan base die off just like the NHRA if they continue on this path.

Serious question, what do you mean with your reference to Nhra? What did they do to kill off their fan base? I'm out of the loop etc.

HemiEd 10-09-2016 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dayze (Post 12473303)
Serious question, what do you mean with your reference to Nhra? What did they do to kill off their fan base? I'm out of the loop etc.

They have been battling it for years, fans are getting old and passing on.

The NHRA has been doing what they can think of to bring on younger fans/participants with Jr. Dragsters and rice burner races, but it is just not what it used to be.

There have been races without even a full 16 car field in some of the pro brackets.

Participating at almost any level, let alone nationally, has gotten so expensive it has eliminated a lot of possible participants.

vailpass 10-09-2016 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otter (Post 12473258)
No, I've used to be a rabid NFL fan and don't even watch games anymore unless it's really convenient and I'm very comfortably in the median demographics. It has a lot to do with ESPN turning into a bad reality show, making athletes wear hot pink socks for a serious cause that actually only received 40% of the profits, refs having way to much influence in the games outcome, games only on the NFL channel, and shit like this.

Deciding to follow Jan Brady of the NFL has a lot to do with it as well but it's not the only reason.

And Durango, CO has about 1200 ft over those pussies in Denver. :D

5280 is plenty for me:D Durango is so damn pretty, you're a lucky man.

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vailpass (Post 12473331)
5280 is plenty for me:D Durango is so damn pretty, you're a lucky man.

And when teams know the 5280 number, then do nothing to deal with it (spend the week in Denver doing their best to acclimate to it for Sunday's game, well you know that the 2nd half is going to have a built-in fatigue factor for one team that the other doesn't suffer. Lord knows if I was an AFC West owner, I'd at least try it a few times, it's not like they go full-bore during the week anyway. One owner could buy 50+ acres, put a couple of fields on it, build some decent living quarters (barracks) for the teams, and rent it out 8-10 times a year (if it works). It might make a lot of sense for an ACF West owner to do that (if they have any spare cash).

I know it can take 3-6 weeks to acclimate to altitude, and this would give the team only one week, but it's better than 12-15 hours.

It all depends on how bad you want to compete.

Discuss Thrower 10-09-2016 01:45 PM

Yeah, good luck with forcing players to spend a week away from home.

Demonpenz 10-09-2016 04:35 PM

9ners snapchat is savage af

GloryDayz 10-09-2016 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discuss Thrower (Post 12473397)
Yeah, good luck with forcing players to spend a week away from home.

http://www.shockmansion.com/wp-conte.../03/q35gfd.jpg

http://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.M6...718o0&pid=15.1


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.