Offense v. Defense using comparable stats
 

We keep hearing from some on here how the Chiefs are the 28th ranked offense. In the same breath the people defend the defense by saying "they only gave up X points".

Okay so fair enough, but not really. Let's look at like for like.

Scoring offense (because points are what matters)
Chiefs are 19th. Not 28th

Scoring defense (because points are what matters)
Chiefs are 5th - very good

now compare the same stat that people like to tout as 28th ranked offense..yards per game

Yards Per Game Offense:
Chiefs are 24th

Yards Per Game Defense:
Chiefs are 25th

So pick your poison but keep it consistent on both sides of the ball

Oh well, It's only a game.

The Chiefs have more scoring opportunities BECAUSE the defense creates all of those turnovers. They still only score FGs.

Yeah you totally missed the point of the thread.....good job

If the battle is supposedly won in the trenches...it's a shame our run defense is tied for the bottom 5 and gives up the 6th most rushing yards each game.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/t...sition/defense

at times, very true.. but then you have to keep it fair and realize that if the KC D can't get off the field and gives up TOP like they did yesterday.. it minimizes
the opportunities the O has to score.

then I hear you bitch about Andy Reid's playcalling.. all of you.. and then you wonder WHY the offense struggles to score TDs? or worse, point to an individual?

The team has a lot of problems... and is still 7-3. THAT's what should give people hope.

The top players return from injury.. the playcalls get cleaned up a bit.. the QB gets some confidence back... maybe they can still make an impressive run.

The Chiefs had the ball 9 times. The Bucs had the ball 8 times.

Did you subtract defensive touchdowns from the total points scored?

If you subtract the kneel down right before half they are the same

Offense is scoring 19.4 points a game. This INCLUDES a billion turnovers in opponent territory that lead to field goals.

did I hear a stat correctly yesterday in the broadcast when they mentioned the Chiefs offense hadn't scored a TD in 8 quarters? (prior to the Alex Smith run for TD).

Offensive points scored is how it was sorted....ask the NFL

League avg. is around 23 ppg.

And the take away our possession with 8 secs left in the game as well as it was never going to happen

We're still only 1 less than the Bucs.....but keep acting like we had 4 possessions all game.

2 of those times were with mere seconds left in the respective halves.

The Chiefs had 7 drives and had that few because the defense was unable to keep the Bucs from getting into Chiefs territory on every single possession except the very last one where they stalled at the 49 after not even trying to throw the football anymore.

The Bucs offense toyed with the Chiefs defense all day.

The Bucs shortest drive was 9 plays that ended in a FG. Yeah, stellar defensive performance.

:clap:

The fact that TB could drive 50+ yards on all 3 FG's they scored is a damn shame. That's not what a top ranked defense does.

No one is claiming the defense had a "stellar" performance yesterday. But the fact of the matter is, 19 points is 19 points. People, specifically the Alex apologists, are making it seem as if the defense gave up 40 points and they made it impossible for our offense to do anything.

Gee, now go back and read the OP of the thread in which you just replied...

Keep acting like they lost by 30.

One drive when you lost by 2 points is pretty damn critical, is it not?

But in the respective number of drives isn't the issue because the Bucs taking long, time consuming drives limits their numbers as well. It's isn't a comparison between the teams but a comparison between the respective weeks.

Getting 7 offensive series in a game is awful. 9 should really be the lowest acceptable number and that's if neither side is playing great offense. A standard defensive battle should really be around 9 drives. But when you just cannot get a team off the field until they've driven deep into your own territory, your offense isn't going to ever get on the field. The defense allowing the Bucs into Chiefs territory on every drive yesterday is the worst stat to come out of that game. The offense led 2 sustained drives for scores. The offense put up 19 despite NO help from the D. The offense still wasn't good, but the defense was absolutely worse.

Offense didn't help out the defense at all.

2 trips inside the 5 yard line and only 3 points. That combined with being dominated at time of possession was your ballgame.

the Bucs made it into Chiefs territory every drive. Including one they started from their own 4 yard line.

Offensive points per drive IMO is a better indicator of offensive efficiency. Especially when you consider we run the ball a lot which drains the clock leading to less possessions in a game for both teams.

Regardless, we are off from 2015's standards and a lot of that has to do with Maclin not being at his best or even on the field. Somehow, Smith's efficiency isn't that far off from 2015 in the passing game despite all the overreaction on CP.

Because they punted 3 times?

The defense did more damage to the offense by simply keeping them off the field for 15 minutes at a time than the offense did to the defense. The Chiefs had a great sustained drive to start that game and while you'd like to have seen them finish it (Thanks again, Andy - gotta love a ****ing TE reverse inside the 10...), they still showed some nice rhythm to drive the field.

The defense promptly goes out there and lets TB drive it right down their throats. And yes, you'd have loved to have seen the O turn around and make something of that turnover (a completely unforced error after a muffed mesh) but then again, you'd like to see that turnover not lead to a drive starting deep in your own end because the defense was bent over all day. Maybe had the defense not then gotten the ball stuffed down their throat AGAIN, the offense would've been able to get back in rhythm.

The defense spent all day surrendering 9, 10, 12 play drives for 60-70 yards a pop. And as for the offense hanging them out - when the O went out there and drove the field late in the half for a TD, how did the D respond? Oh...right, another 9 play drive that ended on 3rd down only because the Bucs ran out of time to keep slamming it down the D's throat. Drive after drive after drive, regardless of what the O did, the D failed.

The defense absolutely sucked and it definitely sucked worse than the offense.

2 offensive TDs in 12 quarters at that point.

The defense was bad but the offense was worse.

A lot of people are complaining about the jet sweep to Kelce but the Lions scored on the same play from virtually the same down and distance in their game yesterday.

Yeah the defense definitely deserves some blame yesterday. The Bucs beat us at our own game. Time of possession and fewer mistakes.

thanks.
I couldn't remember the stat.

How was the offense worse?

Our immediate reaction this season (with good cause) is to blame the offense when things go poorly.

But the offense had the ball SEVEN TIMES. That's it - seven times. I'm honestly not sure I've ever seen a game where a team only had seven drives. They scored 2 TDs and a fieldgoal in those 7 possession. That's not good, but it's not bad either.

You know what's bad? Letting the opponent into your territory every time he touches the ball. Letting your opponent average 10 plays per drive (made even better by the fact that they had another down to play with in the first half and weren't trying to score on their final drive of the 2nd half).

The offense did its job at a couple of key points in the ballgame and each time the defense again failed to get TB off the field. Because they couldn't get the TB offense off the field at any point in that ballgame. The defense was trash. Blame injuries if you want, but the defense was trash.

Facing another bottom-of-the-barrel defense and failing to get their shit in gear.

The Bucs have given up more than 26 PPG this season on average. On a perfect weather day at home we managed 17.

Two trips to the 5 yard line and we come away with 3 points and a red zone INT. That turnover was the worst play of the day for either side of the ball.

The absolute funniest thing on this site is the logic of better than bad being good.

Our starting QB is gutter trash but he's better than Nick Foles so there!

Our defense is also dogshit, so our beyond-pathetic offense deserves a break!

The offense actually played well enough to win...until Alex threw that awful ****ing interception.

The Good

• Alex averaged more yards per attempt than Winston (8.4 to 8.2)
• The entire offense averaged more yards per play than TB (6.6 to 6.0)
• The defense held TB to 1/5 TDs in the Red Zone

The Bad

• We were 4/8 on 3rd down conversions
• We lost TOP ~35 to ~25
• The defense gave up 442 total yards
• Not forcing a punt until early in the 4th quarter

The Ugly

• TB ran 74 offensive plays to our 52
• TB converted 11/16 3rd downs
• That dumb as shit sweep with Kelce from the TB 4
• Alex's drive killing interception

I said they were ranked 28 in 3rd down conversions.

I'm not shocked you didn't understand.

They couldn't stop the Bucs on 3rd down. They were 11/16 and for some reason I thought it would be worse than that. They just chewed up a lot of clock at times and it seemed like we were powerless to stop them. Marcus Peters really is our MVP because without him we are just sunk.

You are not who I was referring too, Mr. Guilty Conscience

There no guilty conscience here dip shit. That's when you actually did what someone is saying.

You're the idiot who refused to understand plain English yesterday. I thought you were still playing dumb.

We run the ball more than only 8 teams in the whole league.

Do you have your next excuse ready?

Also of note: we have a winning record.

We really don't run the ball much at all.

7-3 with key injuries. I'll take it.

Yes the defense was bad yesterday no ones denying that. But the offense has BEEN bad for a really really long time. You can't expect your defense to play like the 85 Bears week in and week out. It's not manageable. They will suck sometimes. And when that happens, the offense needs to pick up the slack like the Defense did in the Carolina game.

Much of everyone's resentment right now stems from watching the offense consistently under preform.

Please show me where this team resembles the 85 bears? We are ranked in the bottom five in rushing yards allowed per carry this season

Defense only needed one stop in the final ten minutes, they couldn't do it. Gave up fifty yards, four minutes of clock and a TD.

they're not playing like the 85 Bears. But considering how few points the offense generates each game, the defense has to basically play like an elite defense to have a shot week in and week out. Particularly against good teams. That's how I interpreted it.

They averaged 2.4 points per drive. Give them the NFL average of 11 drives in a game and they end up right at 27 points; pretty much balls on with what the Bucs have given up this season.

The offense didn't play poorly, it just never got a chance to play because the defense shit the bed. Their offense was almost exactly as successful as the average offense to face the Bucs this year on a per drive, per play basis. The problem is that our D couldn't get off the field and give the offense the drives it needed to operate.

My response after sitting and watching the game at arrowhead, it didn't seem like the offense was who I'd be upset with.

The 2 redzone trips that ended in a pick and a field goal sucked dick, but man, it was hard t watch the defense. They couldn't get off the field. 3rd downs, etc.

I will say it's amazing how much "better" the offense looked when we consistently got the ball to Kelce and hill and ware.

They were on the right track before the concussion and actually moved the ball quite well yesterday. Suspect play calling multiple times in the game. Smith was much improved from the Carolina game, although had his first red zone INT in almost thirty games.

Maclin is the difference maker is what it comes down to. Can't recall any QB in the league that didn't see a drop in efficiency when they lost their #1 receiver, thus Smith deserves some slack for that.

50% on third downs would lead the league pretty much every single season. It's way above average. The 3rd down conversion rate should be in the good category. Moreover, the fact that they only had 8 3rd downs in a game would be seen as a good thing but/for the fact that they never had the ball in their hands.

And as for the Bucs converstion rate - Really, 62% and they win that game, IMO. One stop at the end and I think they'd have won it - the third down right before the two minute warning; the only time the Bucs tried to pass and they had it pretty easily. The Chiefs just couldn't stop anyone yesterday. Steven Nelson was victimized outside and Ackers was pretty much routinely a half-step behind the play. He was never bad enough to get torched but never really good enough to break up the pass.

Careful, reasonable thinking is unwelcome on CP

They kept playong soft and keeping everything in front but it allowed long methodical drives.

Weird and maybe I'm way off, but it looked like a game they knew they were beat up and playong new faces and just tried to play bend don't break and hope the Bucs would lose.

Winston made some nice throws but he missed some open throws as well. It was weird.

Two trips inside the 6 and they came out with three points and about -50 in yardage. That's not "poorly"?

I conceded that.

But if you're going to discuss this game, you have to be fair about it.

The Chiefs defense has been better than the offense all year. Yesterday it wasn't. I'd listen to an argument that it wasn't worse, but there's no way you can argue it was better.

At most, they were equally shitty. What I saw was 60/40 defense responsibility to offense, but that's not saying the offense was good. Had either the offense or defense had a truly good game, the Chiefs still win. Instead they both left room for improvement and that's how you lose at home to a pretty mediocre team.

I reiterate, 2.4 points per drive yields you about 27 points in an average NFL game. That's not a crazy Chip Kelly pace; it's 11 possessions (and right now teams are actually around 24 total possessions per game so I'm being conservative).

Cherry pick all you want, but when you're given only 7 attempts to really move the ball, 17 points isn't bad. It isn't good, but there's a wide middle there.

The defense, OTOH, was bad. The offense was merely pedestrian.

And I'm not making excuses.....but no Peters for the entire game and no Ford for half the game is what caused that.

And before someone jumps in with "NO MACLIN!".....we had him before and our offense was still shit.

They were trying to steal one.

Once Ford went down, the team clearly decided that they'd try to get lucky again. They weren't doing anything to push the issue (hell, the offense at least took a few shots downfield; the D really didn't do anything but rush 4 and drop guys into coverage).

Hali's done. I hope he retires; we just saw what he's capable of contributing when he's the most critical player on the field and it's precisely dick. And it's time to move on from Zombo as well - he was completely useless out there. Now I don't expect any team to be able to continue to take bullets and not eventually feel it, but we've found out that the OLBs don't have nearly the depth we'd hoped. Hali and Zombo barely resemble NFL players at this point and I'm not sure how much confidence we should have in Dadi if he can't get snaps ahead of Zombo.

But I digress, you're right - they were playing soft and hoping. And the shit of it is that it would've worked if Acker could've made one goddamn play at the 2 minute warning. You know Evans isn't looking to beat you deep there; just sit on that route and make one single ****ing play on this entire afternoon to knock that ball away and get us the ball back with 1:55 and a timeout. I think they win it if they do.

But again, the D just couldn't get off the field.

Of course that's the reason the D was bad - but the D was still bad.

You can say you aren't making excuses but if someone points out the defense played poorly and you say "but Ford and Peters weren't there" well that's exactly what you're doing.

Yes, injuries probably caused it. Yes, the gameplan changed because of the personnel and it kept them from being able to play the kind of D they wanted. But in the end, the D was ****ing BAD yesterday and the why of it is only relevant going forward. In explaining yesterdays outcome, why they were bad doesn't matter; the scoreboard went in TBs favor because they were bad - full stop.

And let's not forget about Howard and Bailey. RNR flashed yesterday, as did Jones and Poe but Reyes was just awful.

But hey, Direckshun thinks the Chiefs should trade Bailey.

LMAO

I'd also point out that Ramik Wilson regressed this week and as much it pains me say, DJ's lost at least a step this season, if not two. He missed tackles that in years past, would have been short gains.

At the end of the day however, holding any NFL team to less than 20 points should result in win, especially at home.

Yeah I told my wife when ford went down that they'd ran out of horses.

I think you can still get something from tamba, but he can't be the guy anymore.

Meh. The offense didn't do much to help the TOP battle themselves. Aside from that first drive, which was an absolutely beauty up until the 5 yard line, they didn't have a single drive that lasted longer than 4 minutes.

.. And I just can't help but go back to the end zone INT. That was the absolute back breaker. One play prior and we were looking GOOD for the game. I was legitimately confident that we'd win.

Man, that play just really sucked.

Dj missed an open field tackle right in front of us that would have ended a drive. I'm thinking his hamstring is still bothering him.

However, I didn't really feel the run d was bad.

He looked bad out there yesterday but a hamstring injury can really **** up mobility, especially at his age.

I'm hoping this issue is resolved quickly and he goes back to being at least a solid B contributor. We'll need him if we plan to make any waves this season.

DJ's been missing tackles all year. The hamstring doesn't help, but Dane's right - he's just not as good as he used to be.

It happens to everyone. He's not getting better from here forward so they'll need to figure something out.

True.

ThaVirus is right on the endzone int though. **** that was bad. If he throws that away and they end up taking a field goal, I think they win

Cornerback ball skills were also absent yesterday. Ron Parker had a good chance to intercept Winston in the end zone, as did Acker, but neither could bring them in. Winston's too good of a QB to let those chances slip away.

The other thing of note is Smith. The mantra for the past 3+ seasons is play smart, be conservative, don't make risky throws and mistakes. Yet two weeks in a row, he's made very poor decisions, which cost the Chiefs a win yesterday.

If Smith continues to perform in this manner, I think there's no reason why Reid shouldn't turn to Foles, who's younger and throws a better deep ball. If the QB is going to make mistakes, I'd rather have the guy who has a better chance of routinely throwing successful deeps balls as opposed to the guy that doesn't.

I can't express how much I dislike the WCO, especially Reid's horizontal WCO. I pine for the days of the Coryell.

Eh, the endzone one was awful, no bones about it.

But he threw it pretty well from where I was sitting yesterday. The deep ball to hill should have been a td with a better throw but it was completed and there were a fee nice deep balls to kelce.

People were up in arms over smith yesterday, mainly because of the endzone int. But outside that, I really couldn't pinpoint him as playing poorly

Yeah but that's two weeks in a row in which he's thrown crucial INT's. He can't do that against Denver or Atlanta or the Chiefs will looking at 7-5 with the Raiders on a short week, which would likely put them on the outside looking in for a final Wild Card spot.

Why didn't the Chiefs offense make any long time consuming drives, and maybe even, god forbid, score more than 17 points? The Chiefs defense played like ass, but they still held the other team to 19 points. That should be enough to win if our offense wasn't a dumpster fire. Every now and then, the offense needs to win a game for us, instead of relying on the defense every damn game.

He missed Kelce on a drag on what could have been a critical 3rd down.

On the first drive I remarked that it appeared we had 'good Alex' that game.

Our offense wasn't a dumpster fire. 2.4 points per possession is above average.

He missed Kelce on a drag on what could have been a critical 3rd down.

On the first drive I remarked that it appeared we had 'good Alex' that game.

Last week's INT was not crucial as far as INT's go. It was very early in the game.

Had Peters not taken the ball away from Benjamin or if Berry hadn't returned an INT for a TD, the Chiefs would have lost the game.

The bottom line is that Alex Smith is billed as "Smart and Safe". The offense is built around him being "smart and safe".

If he's not those things, there's no reason to continue to limiting the offense.

Okay but you can't start saying an INT early in the 1st Q is crucial. If that's the case then all INT's are crucial and we should never do anything but check down.

It was crucial to the offense. If Alex Smith is going to through interceptions, then the Chiefs should play the guy that has the better arm.

His usefulness goes out the window if the guy isn't protecting the football.

It wasn't that he just missed it either. He put his head down and lunged into open air. Was truly a pathetic, lazy effort. Strange.

Imagine the easy TD catch on that first drive, 2nd down, over the middle. If Kelce just makes the easy catch and lunges forward, that's 6 (7) more points. :facepalm:

to be fair, that degree of difficulty on that potential INT was sky high.

We got the FG, so 4 more. But yeah, that was bad.

Ah, shit.. forgot that they scored anyway on that drive. Gotcha. :thumb:

you're coming around.

hell i saw you cussing alex yesterday, i was almost proud of you.