Building a defense in the modern NFL
 

So, I've been thinking about this all season, and especially after watching Monday's game have some thoughts.

Something Reid said a few weeks back has been on my mind-he said that he thought the future of pass rushing was on the inside, as it's a shorter distance to the QB. Teams are getting the ball out quicker and quicker these days to neutralize that outside pass rush. See Aaron Donald.

1. Corners aren't allowed to play physical anymore. So top end speed, discipline and ball skills are really the only things that matter.

2. Outside pass rushers and CB's are generally the highest paid defenders at the current moment.

3. Interior linemen are, with a few exceptions, undervalued.

4. Safeties have become undervalued, as teams refuse to spend the top dollar on them (other than us with Berry) and instead put that money into CB's. We're speaking relatively here.

I think going forward, I would concentrate on defensive linemen as pass rushers first in the draft and free agency. I would tag Ford next year and let Houston walk after '19. I would sink dollars and high picks into the interior 3 move away from overpaying edge rushers.

I would absolutely sign quality veteran safeties, as to me, they're MORE valuable than corners if this is how the NFL wants to play.

I think every corner gets torched anymore and so this position is no longer worth the premium contract. There's not a lot of difference anymore between a mediocre corner and a great one under these rules. But a smart safety that diagnoses the play and is in the right place is golden. More so than before.

just my thoughts.

Whatever you do, you've gotta be multiple. I think having versatile guys that aren't necessarily specialists is where you've gotta try and go.

You are kinda contradicting yourself on the safety and corner stuff

Run a 4-3. You need to be able to pressure consistently with your four down linemen. You'll also need LBs that can cover well and stop the run. Man corners that have speed and ball skills. Rangy safeties that can take away the TE and also play the deep zones.

well, what I mean is-pay the safeties, not the corners.

the safeties prevent touchdowns. The corners are going to get burnt no matter what they do.

I would agree with this except that nobody's in their base defense much anymore. Nickel is more or less everyone's base defense.

Exactly why you run a 4-3. You have defensive linemen that can get pressure from the base defense, nickel or dime.

Yeah, I'm just saying we do that a lot already. I mean, they may call Speaks and or Kpass OLB's, but their essentially DE's on a four man line when we're in nickel, which is like 70% of the time.

I think 4-3 or 3-4 is irrelevant in the modern NFL. What does matter is where you put your monetary and draft pick resources. I think it might be smart to put it where other teams DON'T, at least not as a first priority. Especially so since we're likely to be drafting at the bottom of each round for the forseeable future.

I agree. Absolutely. Unfortunately in this new "era" of Arena League - you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Run a 3-4 and you get very little push up front, giving the opposing QB more time to look downfield.

Run a 4-3 and you get more push up front, but if you miss - you lose.....


Me? I'm a believer in the 4-3. But again - if you don't have a good rushing Down Lineman who can shoot the gap and 2 good edge rushers, well.....it can end fairly badly.

Neil Smith, Derrick Thomas and Dan Saleaumua. Need I say more?

The Chiefs lead the league in sacks this year. That's not been the problem.

This is true. If you have a bad backfield.....well.......all bets are off....

think of it this way-

with any contact on WR's getting a flag, paying for 'elite' CB play is pointless. However, smart, talented safeties know where to be, take good pursuit angles, can cover backs and TE's, and shut down the big play.

I'd pay the money for Landon Collins AND Earl Thomas. I'd pay the money for another force on the d-line to pair with Jones.

What I'm saying is, with these rules, quality safety play>CB play, and DL rush>edge rush.

So when it comes to corner what would you look for? Find the fastest guys and play a ton of zone hoping to create turnovers?

I agree with you about Dbacks. CBs aren't able to be physical anymore, so speed and hands are essential. It'd be nice if they could tackle, too. I'm not sure there's such a thing as a 3-4 or 4-3 anymore except the number of LBs and D linemen. It's evident that edge rushers alone aren't the answer to the Madden/fantasy football product the NFL is pushing now. Either modify the rules for PI or just accept that 80 point games are going to be the norm and ruin the integrity of the game.

yeah, I think so.

I think a guy like Tremon Smith is what you'd be looking to draft for CB's. Fast, fast, fast. And NEVER pay a big second contract to those guys. Just draft and replace. They're not allowed to be great so why pay them like they are?

And spend the money on elite safeties. Earl Thomas, Landon Collins, guys like that.

And edge rushers are nice, keep 'em when you got 'em, but invest more heavily going forward in your d-line, interior guys. You need another Chris Jones.

/thread

The modern NFL defense should be a 43

Winner winner chicken dinner.

When Chris Jones collapses the pocket....good things happen.

Bailey having a good year helps.

Interior DL are crucial.

With the wrong personnel is the point. We're trotting out 300+lb Dlinemen and asking them to rush the passer.

That's not as efficient as a true 43 D-line that can play lighter, smaller and quicker. Along with LB's who are also lighter, smaller and quicker.

They're having exceptionally good seasons. They also get a lot of opportunities.

well, I think you're missing the point. What difference is it, really, especially when a team like the Chiefs has 275lbs. OLB'ers? Call them a DE, call them OLB'ers, what difference does it make? More than a DE then, even in a 4-3, I say the DT should be the new point of emphasis. And even they will not look like the old hulking 300+ pounders but more like the Donald prototype. Reid's point was that the interior linemen collapsing the pocket from the INSIDE is faster and more disruptive than pressure from the edge.

My point is I think that Interior linemen and safeties are more important in this new era, with the new rules (or new emphasis on the rules) than the previous conventional wisdom that CB's and edge rushers are the premium defensive positions.

Jone's hands are getting better...isn't next year, year three?


:rockon:

MLB will be super important as well.

Interesting how rules will change defense from outside in to the opposite.

Take this a step further. You should be investing more in offense than defense as well.

This all day.

I think the modern defense is more about turnovers and shutting down an offense.

Fair enough. It's a side discussion really, to what my main point is-which is that for decades, the NFL has placed a premium on pressure from the outside-i.e. edge rushers, OLB'ers, DE's, and shut-down corner play. Both are now handicapped by a)quicker developing passing games and b)no contact by DB's at all or it's a flag. Aaron Donald, for example, doesn't rush against the LT much, he's usually rushing against a guard. He gets inside that guard and eats your QB alive. That's what I'm talking about. I don't want Jones outside rushing out around the tackle-I want him on a guard, inside, on a bee-line to the QB.

So perhaps, like the Royals which found undervalued skills and rode it to a championship, the Chiefs should build a defense designed to collapse the pocket from the inside out and limit big plays downfield with superior safety play. SAFETY in the actual use of the word as well as the term for the position.

I'm still surprised that with the Jim Johnson defense back in style, Reid didn't pursue a Jim Johnson like candidate. Then again, maybe we got saved... Minnesotas defense hasnt looked great this year.

Here's a more intriguing idea... Why not poach from Reid's coaching tree? Nagys got a scheme we might like. Fangio is basically running a 3-4 under (not sure how many are doing that). Goes without saying, Khalil mack really makes that D go. The bears have one of the more intriguing defense.

Those guy are running around in coverage half the time. Dee Ford and Justin Houston aren't rushing the passer 100% of a QB's drop backs.

That's the difference. How many more sacks would those guys have if they weren't running around in coverage?

How much more effective would our D-line be if you slid Houston and Ford at DE, and moved Jones and Bailey into the middle 100% of a QB's drop backs?

How much easier could we cover backs swinging out of the backfield and screens etc if our OLB's flew around like DoD?

THAT'S the difference.

that actually is a much more concise way of saying what I'm trying to say.

Invest much more heavily on interior linemen and safeties (INSIDE) as opposed to conventional wisdom of investing in edge rushers and CB's (OUTSIDE).

Correct.

Which further supports the argument that the 43 is the optimum scheme for today's NFL.

Man you guys are really obsessing on this.

Okay, we're a 4-3 now.
We see this anyway, about half the time. This is not the point.

I'm not even against a 4-3. I don't even disagree that it should be our base defense. I just think it doesn't matter all the much because we'll be in our base defense about 20% of the time. I'm more concerned with the other 80%.

My point is, less run stuffer big guys and more pass rusher types from the inside positions. More Jones's and less Williams's. And that the Houston's and Ford's, while good players, affect the game less often than a force like an Aaron Donald due to his proximity to the QB at the snap. Good OT's just ride the edge rusher out most of the time and the QB has a nice pocket to throw from. Collapse it in his face and it's more chaotic.

I believe you're onto something

Dude. The question you posed is "Building a defense in the modern NFL".

And we're giving you the correct answer. It starts with a scheme switch. That IS today's NFL. Today's NFL is the 43 D.

Even Andy Reid himself says that. The ability to rush the passer from the interior line.

So if we're "Building a defense in the modern NFL", well the first and most fundamental building block is the scheme itself.

The scheme will dictate personnel. The personnel being smaller, quicker and the ability to pressure with 4-down linemen, allowing you to pressure whether you're in base/nickel or whatever.

The 34 has inherent issues that cause problems when defending today's NFL offenses.

It's not "obsessing", it's the correct response to your OP.

But not with optimum players to run a 43.

Right. What you're describing is personnel that would match a scheme switch to the 43 LMAO

In which your OLB's are smaller, quicker and better suited for playing in space/coverage and used less to rush. Your DE's are no longer "Run stuffer big guys" and instead guys like Houston and Ford, and guys like Jones and Bailey aren't there to eat space, but to rush the QB.

You're not in a base defense all that much. Everybody's BASE DEFENSE is pretty much a nickel and/or dime, regardless of whether they are a 3-4 or 4-3 in their BASE. It's not 1992. Last year, teams were in their base 33.1% of the time. This is because most teams use the 11 as their base offense these days. (3wrs, one back, one TE.) So your BASE defense is really just a personnel package that gets used less often than others. In all reality, it doesn't really matter all that much anymore.
from Football Outsiders:

We no longer separate 3-4 and 4-3 fronts in our stats. In all honesty, the distinction is becoming more and more meaningless in the modern NFL; the difference between a 4-3 defensive end and a 3-4 outside linebacker is more or less whether or not they have their hand in the dirt at the snap. Hybrid defensive schemes are the name of the game now, and trying to cram 2018 defensive strategy into a 1980s framework is less than useful.

So we can disagree, that's fine. I say it's just a personnel package that's used less than say, the nickel. Most nickel defenses are a 4 man line, but not all. Most dime packages are a four man line, but not all. There are all sorts of packages that we and every other NFL team use from time to time, regardless of what is listed as their "Base" alignment.

MY POINT is that the edge rusher is perhaps overvalued and the interior rusher is perhaps UNDERvalued and so we should be concentrating on the interior rushers going forward. And that CB's are now over valued due to the rules and so SAFETIES should be where we spend capital in the future as crap safety play (like we see every week) is a bigger problem than mediocre CB play. So basically the age-old concept of outside in is OUT and now INSIDE out is the way to build a defense in this era. Edge rush takes too long and leaves a pocket to throw from. CB's can't be physical so just get guys that can run with WR's and hope for turnovers and batted balls. Smart safety play keeps the big play away. Make the QB stand in there for 12 play drives with the pocket collapsing right in his face.

DUDE. Yes, we have less than ideal personnel. YES we need quicker, faster d-linemen. NO a 4-3 isn't the answer because we're likely to be in it less than 30% of the time anyway. We'll be in a 4-2-5 more than we'll be in a 4-3 because that's. IT DOESN"T MATTER. the difference between an OLB and a DE is often just a hand in the dirt anyway. THAT PART is not the thing to be keying on.

We need less Williams/Nnadi types and more Jones's. You want a 4-3 base, that's fine but it's just ONE alignment that we'll see some of, and we already do, especially when we have the O'Daniel package on the field where he is essentially a LB'er with four pass rushers on the line in front of him. So yeah, I mean it's fine, but just calling it a 4-3 isn't an answer.

we're arguing semantics; I'm just saying the terminology is not important. We agree that the personnel is.

Check it out Chris Meck: In a 43...playing in Nickel....you still have the same D-line you'd have while playing "base" 43. That's NOT the case in a 34.

That's the whole point. You are utilizing guys to play all 3 downs instead of "run down guys" (your 5-techs) and "pass down guys". I understand that everyone spends more time in passing formations than not. Clearly. That's the whole reason for the argument to switch to a 43.

What happens when a 34 base defense switches to nickel? The NT comes out, right? And now you're pass rushing with two larger OLB/DE types, and two guys who are generally lane cloggers. And your LB's, what are they in a base 34? Bigger guys right? So now you have LB's in coverage who aren't generally great in coverage. Your Reggie Ragland types.

Just because you can run multiple fronts does not mean you're putting the BEST guys out there to run said fronts.

Scheme dictates personnel. In a base 43 we rid ourselves of a NT. We rid ourselves of guys that are specifically run stuffers. You roll with your "base" dline even on passing downs, whether it's base or nickel. You get your $$$ out of said D-line instead of having guys come off the field on 3rd down.

You also have LB's who can run now, which is more optimum for Today's NFL. Who do you want in coverage, DoD or Tamba Hali?

Scheme dictates personnel. Personnel will dictate matchups, right?

Switching to a 43 means we no longer have to invest in 5-techs and NT's (big body guys with limited rush ability).

Your theory on today's NFL defense is NOT wrong. But the fundamental, core part of Today's NFL defense requires a switch to the 43 so that you can maximize your theory with players who are best able to carry it out.

Wanna run a 43 with 34 personnel? Sure. But it's not OPTIMAL. They are NOT interchangeable, because the personnel required to run them is different.

We're lucky to have a guy like Chris Jones or Allen Bailey who can in fact do both. Which makes a scheme switch even easier for a team like the Chiefs.

Can we all agree that LB is the most important position on D?

There's a fundamental shift in the player acquisition process in a base scheme switch.

Your plan is to carry both small, fast D-linemen along with 5-techs? Along with smaller, quicker LB's? And a NT or two? There's only so many roster spots, dude. And you're not using your "43" line 30% of the time. You're using it 100% of the time. That's the whole point! Lol.

You can't have it both ways.

A major component in the scheme switch is that you don't have to have guys who only play "30% of the time" like we do now.

You get it? Maybe im just not explaining clear enough. Can someone else spell this out better?

Whatever defense you build you better hope you win a SB with it in year one because the NFL will neuter it with rule changes the first chance it gets.

Civil, enjoyable debate from Chris and Detox

Both making great points, but kinda talking past each other to an extent

I do agree that 43 is the way to go, because it can give you that same base front 4 personnel in a nickel package... you'll always have a rotation of 4 pass rush capable D line, because the scheme dictates you draft and develop a 4 man rotation

A timely discussion idea by Chris at any rate, great thread

In this new era of arena ball 50 burger games... how to adjust defensively is a critical issue

You need to be able to collapse the pocket with 4. Basically follow the Giants D model when they won their two SBs.

:facepalm:

Ideally yes. This has been pretty much the only way to beat elite QB's for about 50 years now.

Joe Phillips

So my perspective is you need to be able to do all things competently. Not one thing great.

The Patriots are a good example. They’re going to identify what they think makes your offense go and sell out to stop it. Whether that’s the power run game, short pass game, deep balls running QBs whatever.

So many years we think we have something but we come up against some **** all team that does one thing over and over and just obliterates our ass because we are too dumb to stop it. If you keep 12 teams under 200 yards that’s fine. But if you can’t stop the other 4 from wrecking your shit at any one thing you’re done.

That’s a situation we’ve been in far too often.

We need faster LB's- they can't cover RB's or TE's.

Our Safties can't tackle or cover CB's.

Pass rushers, coverage LB's and ball hawking, rangy DBs. Gone are the run stuffer lineman and linebackers. Gone are the hard hitting in the box SS. It's about creating turnovers and rushing the passer.

I'd like to say there will be a team that bucks the trend and goes old school since no defense will be able to stop a power running game but with colleges not developing big time offensive lineman like they used to with all the passing and teams making their best prospects go Dline, then I see this happening.

I understand. I'm really not even arguing with you- I'm not anti-4-3. Our base defense is more a 4-2-5 than anything, just like everyone else in the league. I just view it as a different personnel grouping, one of many, and one that will be used less than others. But we're in agreement about the type of interior lineman that we should be looking at in the draft and FA. So, yes, the four man line should be the main idea that we should be building towards with all four being pass rush threats.

to other posters-no, I don't want to keep both fatties and passrushers. I want to move away from the fatties for the most part and draft and sign active pass rush players to play inside, at defensive tackle positions. A nickel set is more the base defense than anything else these days, but yes, a four man line helps cover for smaller, faster linebackers. I also think that edge rushers should no longer be considered the premium defensive position, and interior rushers instead should be. An Aaron Donald has a bigger impact on the game than a Dee Ford or a Justin Houston. Good players, nice to have, but not the same.

You hit on it,

DL's with power and speed

LB's with speed

DB's with speed

Safeties with speed

It's the way to go, speed up your defense to keep up or else fall behind!

What are your thoughts on fanginos scheme? Hes basically running an under scheme out of a 3-4 alignment. It's one defense that's actually really working right now.

OK, Chris, you've convinced me. The bottom line is we want 2 guys applying pressure inside and guys that can rush or seal from the edge. I think your point about a 4-2-5 is well taken when 1 of your 5 is a hybrid S/ILB to cover the back or react to the run. With our current crop of young players such as Speaks, O'Daniel, and perhaps KPass, your scheme would better suit their talents and still allow for a pure edge rusher you could move side to side. I remember that we'd do that with DT and Smith on occasion. Speed and hands become the weapons at the CB spot and you could even convert bad hands WRs to that pretty easily. The key are the safeties and the ability to both cover and tackle. The only problem with that is the demand may outstrip the supply.
BTW, kudos for starting this discussion. I've enjoyed reading.

So this brings up an interesting thought. With the NFL geared towards offense, what will it take for a current or future defensive player to get selected to HOF? Will the HOF become lopsided ie leaning towards offense instead of defense?

If they continue at current pace would D. Donaldson, K. Mack, JJ Watt be considered HOF material?

yes, BUT-with NO, the Rams, and the Chiefs you can't just take away ONE thing and win. We contained Gurley fairly well Monday night, and he's usually what makes that offense go.

My overall point was that for decades, since Lawrence Taylor and Derrick Thomas the edge rusher has been the premium defensive player, along with the shutdown corner. Modern NFL offenses (and the new rules) have conspired to minimize the effectiveness of those positions. Taking Reid's quote to heart I think I'm coming to the conclusion that the interior line and collapsing the pocket from the INSIDE to combat the quick pass is now the only real way to disrupt the pocket QB. Edge rushers like Ford and Houston are nice pieces to have, but are less of a factor than an inside rusher because it takes longer for them to get to the QB and unless they just flat beat the OT the pocket holds together long enough for receivers to clear coverage since you can't touch anyone without a flag.

So what you really need now is smart, disciplined, elite Safety play to minimize gains, tackle well, and take good angles to the ball along with a strong INTERIOR pass rush to force quick throws from a pocket that is collapsing in the QB's face. I just thought it's interesting that the NFL has been an "outside in" defensive trend with CB's and edge rushers dictating the game and now it appears that the opposite is what you should build your defense on.

We have a couple of good edge rushers and they're still good players, but over the next couple of seasons I'd like to see emphasis on acquiring DT's that are a handful as pass rushers, a pair of stud safeties ala Collins, AND Thomas (as I doubt Berry will ever play a full season again even if he does return). Could be that Kpass and Speaks fit as DE's on a four man line; and Houston is stout enough against the run to play DE but Ford doesn't really have a position in a 4-3. He'll be an awful expensive situational pass rusher.

exactly. and more than just 'pass rushers' INTERIOR pass rushers.

I think we are well set for this. Andy and Brett have been heading this direction already and it shows. Ragland would be better as a thumper in the middle (I hope at least, not sure he is smart enough to make the defensive calls). But the main thing is, have you noticed that at least our top 3 CBs are all slot corners? Able to cover close for a short period of time by which time you hope that interior rush is getting home. We just need the over the top safeties to cover the deep routes (Berry just might be helpful here :( ).

Which brings up another point, the cash it would take to retain Ford both next year and after. If we go to more of an inside out defense, do we really need a pure speed pass rusher? Could we use his money in other places?

Good point. If you look at pure stats, it's going to be hard to measure the effectiveness of some positions. Can you measure a speed and hands guys against someone like Emmitt Thomas, master of the bump and run? But to answer your 2nd question, yes, those guys are game changers.

Man...he's a real good pass rusher...but if you could sign a Geno Atkins or similar player in there I think it'd make more of a difference. I'm not sure what the cap situation would look like, but at least ONE Earl Thomas/Landon Collins type and a Geno Atkins would make that defense look a LOT better. If you can afford it, franchise him and see where you're at in 2020.

I'm less concerned with the corner play because the rules are so skewed against them it just doesn't really matter anymore. I'd play Tremon Smith and maybe look for guys like that in the 3rd and 4th rounds and just keep doing that.

This is an interesting topic. The changes in the rules around DBs has made it very difficult to play defense. Even with limited contact, offenses still run rub routes to get players open without really being concerned about the consequences. Being able to dictate what the other team does seems like a good strategy however you have to have the players to do it.

Players like Mahomes have to make it hard of defenses; his is mobile and throws the ball on the run as well as he does in the pocket, maybe better. I'm not sure we are going to see dominant defenses like the Ravens, which the Chiefs routinely torched, again.

It's going to be even tougher if you are always drafting in the end of each round like the Chiefs have been.

I agree that you want to find interior pass rushers. The problem with that is they are far less common than edge rushers. Donald is extremely rare. So I think you'll still see teams go after edge rushers because even though it's a longer route to the QB, it has still been proven effective even in this era.

I have some extreme ideas about secondary play. I disagree with going after safeties unless they are elite cover guys. I think you should go after all corners pretty much unless there are elite safeties. Generally, corners are faster and better cover guys than safeties. You can't hit guys over the middle now, so having an intimidating hitter at safety is useless in this era. I think you go all corners and convert them to safety. That puts more speed and coverage ability on the field. With the way teams spread out on offense now, walking out a safety to go man to man on a TE is kinda pointless. Might as well be a corner, a guy who is more comfortable in that role.

To get even more extreme, I wonder if you couldn't start converting more receivers to corner. With the way you can't use your hands in coverage anymore, having former receivers able to mirror routes and use their ball skills would be interesting. Poor tackling and big plays are going to be the norm anyway. Might as well have a bunch of fast guys out there who can catch the ball on defense.

Saints defense looked good tonight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1-10 scheme would be ideal. The 1 get pressure and the other 10 man zone coverage with 2 deep safeties

I don't think the offenses have changed much to be honest. There are just more offenses doing what Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees etc led offenses did: Spread teams out and pass more. It's the changing of the guard and scoring will dip as those QB's retire.

2018 is a mere .8 PPG higher than the 2013 season. 2017, scoring was down to the lowest since 2009 at 21.7 PPG, a full point lower at least than the previous 3 seasons.

My take...

Run a 4-3 base.

Focus on your DTs being smaller, disruptive, pass rusher types. Carry a NT type on the roster just for short yardage. He's kind of like a FB, not really needed too often, but he's needed enough to have someone capable. Your DT's should be your best defensive lineman and you should focus resources there. They are the quickest means to getting to the QB now.

Get edge rushers that can move well enough to get a sack, but don't worry about them being superstars. They must be able to anchor on the outside, maintain gaps, and be rangy and aware enough to defend the outside runs and sweeps. These guys don't have to be your star pass rushers, they just need to be average.

Get two rangy linebackers that can cover and have just enough juice to take on blocks to come downhill. These guys are going to see alot of underneath passing action so they have to be cover first, run second types. Ideally, they are your outside linebackers. Get an ILB that is more of a run defender than pass, but has enough range to cover a TE in the middle zone. This is the guy that will be out there on 1st down and short yardage alot but is the guy coming off the field most often You need a SS/LB hybrid type as well that can replace your ILB on middle-distances downs between 4 and 6 yards or something. This guy isn't really a nickel player but he's got enough beef to play the run yet alot of speed to play the pass. Basically you're going for 2 solid all-around linebackers and using the third like relief pitchers... middle reliever and set up guy.. that gives way to your nickel corner that acts as the closer.

You need one longer CB and at least 2 with speed. You have to be able to match up with teams that employ a bigger wideout so having that bigger CB is important. He doesn't have to be your playmaker, but he should be one of the two starters. Most offenses now have a guy starting with some good speed so your other starter should have it. I think you move your CBs as much you can to keep matchups rather than just R/L like Sutton does. You should have a nickel guy with at least great quickness and hopefully speed as well. You gotta take these quick slots out of the game. I think it's so important now to just have guys that can mirror receivers and not worry about having corners that can press and be physical. There isn't much sense in trying to be physical anymore. One of your starting CBs needs to be a ball-hawking type that can turn the game.

Your safeties have to be able to cover and one needs to be a ballhawk type. I think the days of box safeties are done. Obviously, they have to be good tacklers, but they don't need to be "tone-setters" or "thumpers" back there. Coverage ability is priority one. One safety has to have the size to match up on TEs.

I have enjoyed the shit out of this thread. I don't really have anything to add, as you all have done a damned fine job of brainstorming and debating. Thank all involved... This was a nice "I can't sleep so lemme check out THE P" treat. :clap:

Oh, because no one else has yet, I'll throw in the obligatory "I hope you get aids from molten lava cum and try to douse it with gasoline that was stored in an antifreeze bottle."

Wait. Who's doubling the lineman who reported as an eligible receiver?

Agreed. Having great Interior DL's and Safety's are going to be the keys in the 2019 NFL. Every team will be moving to a high flying offense as soon as possible. They are not going to stop the offenses but they just need to slow then down. We should sign Earl Thomas and spend the 1st and two 2nd's on the DL, safety and ILB.

https://beargoggleson.com/2015/01/21...ensive-scheme/

Here you go. We could run this scheme tomorrow. Our personnel isn't that far off. In fact, a lot of it is ideal. And the under scheme is still successful and in this case it's largely run out of 3-4 personnel and allows you to keep our strength which is an elite olb pass rusher.

And they have an experienced coordinator with green bay connections who knows the scheme inside and out in Ed Donatell.

One thing teams are really scouting for is if players raise their hand as a fist as a gesture to everyone that is 4th down. It is really key on 3rd down stops for them to put their fist in the hair while taking out mouthpiece.

Building a defense in the modern NFL
 

I’ve always enjoyed Fangio’s defenses.

“I think he (Vic Fangio) is one of the all-time best defensive coordinators in the history of the league. I think that’s who he is. I think that’s what his legacy will be someday” – Jim Harbaugh

I think we are talking past each other some. It's my fault, I kinda hung a left back there a ways.

What I was saying was going past scheme. IMO, whatever scheme you run, you need to be competent at stopping every aspect of offense, not sell out for stopping the run or piling a bunch of capital in corners.

OCs are smart enough these days to attack you where you're weak rather than "We're a smashmouth team" or whatever like it used to be.

Also, with the rule changes and willingness of offensive staffs to get production out of offenses guys can run, you're just not going to lock down a good team.

Accordingly, you have to have a good offense. Nobody is winning ****all without that. To go with that defense you need to have a defense with competency for all aspects of the game. You won't get a stop every time, but if you're competent, you'll eventually outrun the other offense.

That's the way I see the league these days.

Look at the good defenses. You’ve gotta have 11 talented guys and be fundamentally sound

Physical fast football will always have a place

I agree. Although I might lean more towards a Landon Collins just on the age difference.

It's incremental; and while the league overall is only up a little, the elite offenses are taking advantage of the new rules and increased emphasis on any contact downfield. In the postseason, these are the teams you will need to beat, and what you need to try to build a defense to stop.

I go ahead and switch to a 4-3 (which is actually almost a 4-2-5)
Let Ford walk, no position in a 4-3, too expensive for a situational player. Let Bailey walk as well.
I sign Geno Atkins with some of Ford's money. Houston-Jones-Atkins-Speaks at DE, hand in the dirt at about 280 lbs

I play: FA coverbacker (several options) -Hitchens- O'Daniel
I sign Landon Collins and play Watts/Lucas in the other slot. if Berry returns we're ****ing great, but I'm not expecting it.
I hope Tremon Smith can take a job from Scandrick or Nelson, opposite Fuller. look for undervalued speed at CB in FA and draft. Just get faster, nothing else matters. Just so guys don't look wide open running down the field.

In rounds 1 and 2a, 2b I take: A DT with some pass rush ability, probably another Safety, and another speed CB. Middle rounds I'm drafting OL. Late rounds athletic projects as they are available for any position.

Just my hypothetical .02

You're not the only one holding out some hope for Tremon Smith

He quickly claimed a starting special teams role, with any luck that bodes well for him

I like a lot of this, but I don't think you draft another safety high if you have collins and Berry on the roster.

I also think Atkins signed an extension with the Bengals, so he's unavailable.