LNBS: Did Reid force Dorsey out because he didn’t want to lose Veach
 

I was explaining to a buddy how Veach was the guy that found Mahomes, and it got me thinking.

Dorsey was fired after Ballard was hired by the Colts, and the timing was weird. I don’t doubt that Dorsey’s issues were part of the reason as well, but something tells me Reid was scared to lose a guy who he knew had a special eye for talent and found his QB.

Don't know, but thank God if that's what Andy did. Got us a SB.

Veach will be on the Mt Rushmore of GMs when it’s all said and done with

I can only imagine the contract that Dee Ford would’ve gotten had we not made that change

Yikes.

I'm still happy to be done with all those older players. It's nice having much younger team that's still actually good on top of it.

I agree, I don't think Clark/Reid wanted to lose him. I think they saw someone who could be the GM for the next 20 years.

I don't think Dorsey's persona fit with Clark.

I also think they knew losing Chris Ballard would suck, so they didn't want to lose Veach next.

Nah. There was some pretty clear awkwardness and tension there between Dorsey and Clark. Apparent on the night we drafted Mahomes.

Edit: wasn't it something to do with Berry and his contract?

That’s all speculation IIRC, no different from this.

I said that issues with Dorsey were also probably part of the decision as well, but something just tells me Reid knew what he had in Veach and refused to lose him too. It’s not a coincidence that he got the job after and he was being talked about for a GM job that offseason (Buffalo).

Essentially, Dorsey fired himself.

He could not report properly and he could not manage staff properly. Therefore, he and Clark were incompatible. Dorsey was given an opportunity to course-correct and could not do it.

Personally, I think Dorsey was elevated well beyond his competency (Peter Principle) and is unfit for a managerial or leadership position.

He's a scout. Nothing more.

FAX

I hope so. It would make me love Andy even more.

No. It took 2 months to hire a new GM after Dorsey got fired. Veach was right there, ready and waiting. If this factored into even 20% of the decision to fire Dorsey, then why did Clark wait 2 months?

The timing of Dorsey's firing was directly after Eric Berry getting his panties in a bunch over his contract and Dorsey cutting Maclin abruptly. He clearly pissed off Clark. And based on the stories that came out of Cleveland, it's likely he pissed them off, too, even if they're just a bunch of simpletons.

Dorsey is an asshole who doesn't play nice with others. That's the best explanation for why he got fired.

FAX and SNR have it down.

Dorsey was ****ing terrible with the cap too. Hell we have basically the same squad as last year and are under the salary cap. He can get Jones and Mahomes extended somehow without losing critical pieces I’ll let Veach blow me as much as he wants

Any hope of this being true went out the window when Dorsey got his ass run outta Cleveland too.

The stories there are hilarious. Dude can scout players, but outside of that is an asshat.

I think this was all Clark. He's a pretty smart guy, and I think looking at the cap situation that had emerged he didn't want to pay up for Dorsey. Not a total indictment of Dorsey, just Clark wasn't enthusiastic enough about Dorsey's overall performance to extend.

Dorsey will always have a special place in my heart for drafting Mahomes. People can give Veach credit all they want but Dorsey had to sign off on it, and it changed this franchise forever. That said, Clark's master stroke might have been to not care about any of that and do what he felt was best going forward.

2 months?

Dorsey was fired late June and Veach was hired early July. It was less than a month. There wasn’t much doubt he was going to be the GM during that time either.

That contract would have been invalid anyway because Dee Ford would have signed it on the wrong side of the page.

Yep. Dorsey was fired June 25th and Veach was hired July 10th.

SNR is drunk lol

My memory failed me. I thought he was fired in early May.

I remember several weeks passing since he was fired, though. It took less time for Clark to fire Crennel and hire Reid. Why the hell would we fire Dorsey to ensure we could keep Veach and then wait so long to hire the guy we really wanted?

Dude, it was two weeks lol. Pretty standard.

All indications were Veach’s a going to be the guy and he was. I have no idea what you’re remembering here!

I think he'd expect that to be the other way around . . .

Two weeks is especially fast because it was in the middle of the summer and there's was no hurry to hire someone.

No, I still think it was an already unpleased attitude and how Maclin was handled.

To the people saying it’s all because of Dorsey, why did they have to do it in June? There was no rush, the draft and everything was over. The odd timing is why I think it’s a combination of the two.

They don’t make that move in June without knowing they’re going to hire from within and keep it rolling. Not after they just drafted their franchise QB.

Dorsey is a ****ing asshole. Don't you think that's a far bigger point?

Bigger? Maybe. Far bigger? No.

It’s pretty obvious Veach is a great young GM. Why is it so hard to believe that Reid saw this coming and didn’t want to lose him?

You can believe both things at the same time, and I think they were probably both equally as important in making that decision when you’re talking about a team that was starting a journey with that young franchise QB. They might at least let Dorsey play out the year if they didn’t have Veach waiting in the wings. What was the rush?

You don’t break up with your hot (but older and crazy) GF out of nowhere unless you have a younger and hotter one on deck.

Well, you can choose to believe him or not, but Clark said the timing was such that the new GM could be in place at the beginning of the college football season so that the following draft and offseason could work within the structure of the team without any kind of transition.

We wouldnt have interviewed other candidates if this were true. OP is fake news.

Man, you really don’t think Reid knew that Veach was this good and he was going to be the guy to replace Dorsey when they fired him?

If you want to say it was mostly because Dorsey was an asshole than fine, but you seem to think that Veach wasn’t always going to be that guy and I just don’t understand how you come to that conclusion. It’s clear that Reid saw something in Veach a long time ago and it was an inevitably.

Teams are constantly interviewing as a formality. Have you never paid attention to HC/GM hiring processes?

Billay, get something right man. You can do it.

Veach was always known to have a good eye for talent but no one truly knew how he would do as a GM. Not only is he great at finding talent but when he wants a player he gets him. When it comes to contracts and cap space he is light years better than Dorsey. He also seems very loose and fun to be around, I can’t say the same for Dorsey.

Nobody?

Not the guy that was having him find LeSean McCoy, DJax, Cox, etc. back when he was in Philly and far from a GM job?

Not the guy that got to see Pat for a year and knew that same guy found him the next great QB?

Reid’s clearly had trust in Veach’s eye for talent for a long time and it rewarded him with Patrick Mahomes. I think by the time he fired Dorsey, he knew exactly what he had in Veach. How the **** could he not?

I heard this from my old boss whose family has been STH’s and “in the ‘in’ crowd”.

Dorsey was ****ing up badly and seemingly had everyone hating him for his own failures. He pissed off Berry and Houston bc he waited and also paid his own draft picks over Berry. He pissed off Clark bc Clark had to step in on the Berry deal. He also pissed off the scouts as reported by the Star. Clark’s evaluation saw that internal staff loathed Dorsey and he made rash decisions on his own by going rogue.

I think he would have been GM for the rest of the 2017 year if he didn’t finally piss off the one person who had his back. Andy vouched for Dorsey when he got here. Andy isn’t the kind of guy to give up on people, but Dorsey finally broke the camels back.

When he went rogue one last time and cut Maclin by voice mail, that was it. Keep in mind this happened like 2 or so weeks before Dorsey was let go. Not sure if I mentioned this or not, but the rumor was that Andy found out Maclin was cut from Maclin himself. Imagine being Andy and not knowing your friend that you hired cut a player you were close with by voicemail and he didn’t tell you? Also keep in mind Andy was just at Jeremy’s wedding a couple weeks prior.

Andy naturally called Clark and knew they decided that Dorsey was out and the kid that was close to Andy (Veach) had proven himself enough to get the job.

I honestly think had Dorsey not ****ed up with Maclin, he would have been fired in January 2018 bc of his ego and failures. He wasn’t gonna stop ****ing up.

I understand Dorsey was a complete dick, and I said from the beginning that I understand that was a huge factor.

But Reid knew he was dumping his GF for a hotter younger one. No doubt in my mind.

Again, both things can be true. Those kinds of decisions, especially being made right after you draft your franchise QB, aren’t made in a vacuum.

18 days between Dorsey firing and Veach becoming Chiefs GM.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/c...fire-their-gm/
From Thursday, Jun 22, 2017

https://www.chiefs.com/team/front-of.../brett-veach-1

It could be 14, 18, 22, I really don’t give a ****.

I remember that it was fully expected that Veach would be named GM and he was. They knew who they were going to hire before they even fired Dorsey. That’s all that matters.

Lot of things happened in one offseason. Veach found the QB everybody in the franchise loved, Dorsey was already in not water with Clark and then he finally ****ed up right before his contract was up.

I think Andy knew Veach was the future, but Dorsey’s dumbassery expedited tHe decision.

I think there were a lot of great things Veach did and didn’t get public credit for them. Wasn’t he our SEC scout? If so, would it really surprise anyone if Veach brought Chris Jones to the table early in the scouting process?

Are you 8 years old?

It was a highly criticized move at the time. I remember after the firing of Dorsey there was an article that stated Dorsey was a more qualified GM after departing from KC than when he was hired. That added fuel to the fire. But yeah, no ring without Veach.

Yeah, that is the event the broke the camels back the way I remember it Didn't he cut him via text or tweet?

Dorsey signed off on Mahomes, orchestrated the trade for him and also was Green Bay's director of college scouting when the Packers drafted Aaron Rodgers. So it's not like the guy didn't have an eye for QBs. Firing of Dorsey was more than likely a power play by Reid. Had nothing to do with Veach being this can't miss guaranteed to be great GM.

It obviously worked out but this is a ridiculous purely speculative theory by OP..

I hate to sound like Dane, but you're speculating.

It's a fun theory and all, but I don't buy it being the determining factor in letting go of Dorsey.

Good thing Buffalo hired Beane.

My understanding is that Beane was a paper pusher in Carolina, not a scout but he was buddies with the Buffalo coach McDermott. If it had been on merit Veach would have got that job.

https://www.espn.com/blog/buffalo-bi...ills-gm-search

I don't necessarily think it was any one reason why Dorsey was canned....probably several. But this thought is plausible as one of those many reasons....

This is a terrible take

I think Dorsey must just rub people the wrong way.

Its weird that he got canned by both the Chiefs and the Browns fairly quickly.

Great talent scout, but everything else is lacking....

How is it terrible you butt****ing moron?

I think it's clear that Dorsey doesn't play well with others.

I think it's clear that Andy likes Veach and wanted to keep him.

When Dorsey passed the point of no return with Reid and Clark, I think they did due diligence looking at qualified candidates, but I think Reid was probably pushing for Veach. After consideration, Clark agreed.

I think it's that simple.

Didn’t say it was. I told you I know that Dorsey being an asshole was a huge factor and maybe even the biggest.

You’re also speculating that it was all because Dorsey was a jackass and that Veach wasn’t already their guy. How is that any different from my speculation? Sure, you’re connecting dots based on what happened with Dorsey in Cleveland and reports of him being an asshole with both teams, but I’m also connecting dots based on Reid’s history with Veach, Veach’s success, reports on him being Reid’s go to guy when finding talent going back to Philly (McCoy, DJax, Cox etc.), and the fact that he’s the guy given credit for finding Mahomes. How is that any different?

I'll play devil's advocate. We got to meet Dorsey a few years back and he was genuinely nice. Maybe we just caught him on a good day?

Also, this theory of "Reid didn't want to let go of the guy with the real talent" kind of spits in the face of Andy's leadership and teaching philosophy.

Everybody on the Andy Reid coaching tree tells you about how supportive he is to all of his guys, and how he cares about them as men more than he cares about them as employees. He's not afraid to let go of great coaches so they can get promotions. I know that's basically any guy with a coaching tree, but in 21 years Andy has had some damn good assistants come through his ranks, and he's never removed the guy ahead of him on the staff just so he wouldn't lose the more impressive coach.

For all of Dorsey's faults, he DID make the Mahomes trade happen. That's nice that Veach was the one who found the guy and all, but Dorsey is the one who kept things quiet, found the perfect spot in the draft to perform the trade up, and negotiated a pretty cheap deal for the trade up. It happened under his LEADERSHIP. If Dorsey wasn't such a ****ing asshole and knew how to better manage the cap, why would Andy want to get rid of him? Yeah, he had an impressive underling. But the guy in charge got the job done for the most valuable player this franchise has ever seen.

Veach would have left, but there would have been guys who take his place. Just like Andy's coaching staffs. If you're good at hiring and teaching your scouts, it all works out.

Man, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree because there’s a clear lack of understanding here that I can’t seem to clear up for some reason.

I’ve conceded over and over that Dorsey is an asshole and it was probably the bigger factor in his actual firing, but you keep talking as if I’m saying Dorsey was fired simply to keep Veach.

No, it's not speculation. That's what was said by Clark Hunt himself. And on top of that, Terez Paylor put out multiple articles describing what likely went down. Clark didn't say, "Dorsey sucks" but he basically said it with whatever language he chose to use. "We needed better communication, so we chose to go in a different direction" or whatever it was.

Again, if you're more convinced by your narrative, that's cool, but I'm just telling you the official one on the books.

I’m not saying it’s speculation that Dorsey was an asshole and it got him fired. I’m saying it’s speculation that it was the only factor and that they didn’t view Veach as their guy before they actually made the move. It’s easier to let somebody go in June when you already have your guy.

I think the real point that I’m trying to make here is that Reid knew what he had in Veach, he probably didn’t want to lose him, and all the combined with Dorsey being a jackass made it really easy to fire him after we just drafted Mahomes. They weren’t going to fire Dorsey and bring somebody in that had nothing to do with the biggest move the franchise has ever made right after they made it.

everything isn't a conspiracy guys, with nefarious characters carrying on evil secret plans.

Who the **** said there was a conspiracy?

why did you take that specifically personally?

I was referring to several posts by several posters.

that's why I didn't quote anyone in particular.

If it doesn't apply to you, then don't apply it.

That’s why I asked who said that....

Yeah I think it’s more simple than folks realize. Dorsey was fired for being an egotistical sonofabitch who can’t play well with others or handle any managerial responsibilities. Low and behold, the internal candidate who has impressed management replaces him.

This happens all the time in the real world. I mean FFS the guy was not management material, ever. He was rarely professional. Dorsey never even dressed like a manager.

Dorsey was a ticking time bomb.

It's been implied by several people all the way back since it happened that Reid is power hungry and doesn't share it.

That he basically undermined Dorsey to get rid of him and install a yes man.

That he might have gotten rid of Dorsey to keep Veach, who he saw as a diamond in the rough.

That Clark got hoodwinked.

Now, since we won the SB, everyone is more forgiving of Andy, and so it's painted in a less nefarious light, but there's still a lot of speculation implying things that run counter to anything/everything anyone who's ever worked with Reid says.

If that seems like I'm misunderstanding, then perhaps it's my own bias.

I generally see a lot of over-reaction and assumption of back room scheming on this board when it's more likely a lot less sinister or sneaky than all that.

So Veach could trade himself. If he wanted a pick/player bad enough

That’s a great point. I don’t know where people got this idea that Andy is power hungry or a control freak. But since we won the Super Bowl, I’ve noticed the talk about Andy being dictator for life in KC has died way down. Probably because it was a silly and stupid narrative that fans chose to believe to vent their frustrations

Andy said in a interview just awhile back he didn’t want anything to do with front office.Alluded to past experience in Philadelphia and mentioned that it didn’t work and wanted nothing more than coaching.Now I am sure he wanted someone who would listen to his input

There was definitely something off with Clark and Dorsey watching the way they embraced half ass after the Mahomes pick.

I initially thought it was due to drafting a 1st rd. QB, lol.

And I still thought that when I met Clark at Centurylink '18 when the 1st words outta my mouth was, "thanks for drafting a 1st rd. QB", lol.

We can all agree Veach is a good GM dont need to dive into conspiracy theories to justify his accomplishments.

Dorsey is an asshole and a terrible cap manger and cotract negotiator. We canned him and so did the Brown. He is shitty GM, that's why he was fired. End of story.

Didnt Dorsey get fired shortly after they cut Maclin? I seem to remember everyone going to his wedding them they cut him like a week later lol

Oh what an honor you would bestow upon him. You're a ****ing tool

That fat reerun Ron Hughley was always saying that shit, but he's no longer on radio, so you don't have to hear him saying that shit.

In the beginning I thought Andy had full say in everything and made all the decisions. I thought he listened to his people though, but had the final say. Now I firmly believe that Veach handles personnel and Andy coaches. He learned from Philly.

Veach makes all the moves but if Reid wants a player Veach will go get him. Just like last year when Spags wanted HB Veach went out and made sure that happened

"I notified John that we would not be extending his contract beyond the 2017 season, and after consideration, we felt it was in his best interests and the best interests of the team to part ways now," Chiefs Chairman and CEO Clark Hunt said in a statement. "This decision, while a difficult one, allows John to pursue other opportunities as we continue our preparations for the upcoming season and the seasons to come."

Quote tells you everything you need to know. Back at the time there was a lot of surprise that Dorsey was going into his final contract year and no extension had been done. Dorsey wanted his extension, Clark ultimately said no. Dorsey said I'm out and Clark said okay.

Every indication was Dorsey was going to be allowed to finish his contract & might have been able to salvage his job if he fixed his ways (completely my speculation).

It was NOT a good time to change GMs with contracts to be done and more recruiting still going on. It took a couple weeks to get it ironed out because they had to change gears. Does Rooney Rule apply on GM?

I think Clark had his eye on Veach when Dorsey forced his hand.

Pretty much. Dorsey has a good eye for player talent but sucks at the financial/management/relationships part of being a GM. He needs to be a scout