Interesting O-Line Stats
 

A couple of Chief OL are, apparently, playing well in the passing game.

https://a2.espncdn.com/combiner/i?im...570&format=jpg

https://a4.espncdn.com/combiner/i?im...570&format=jpg

Other fun stats at the link: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...gs#prwrplayers

Our run blocking sucks.

Yep, they can passblock, but run blocking his horrible.

Kudos to Veach for plucking Remmers. Everyone thought he would be absolute shit.

Still sad about KO.

Is this based on not letting a guy into the backfield or pressures/sacks? cuz Mahomes be scramblin'

To be fair that falls mostly on Wylie

Reiter too, **** it was rumored that the Chiefs would select Center Cesar Ruiz in the 2020 Draft if he was available.

PFF sucks.

And yet the Chiefs are 11th in the league at 4.4 yards per carry.

Wylie was top 10 in the stat posted in the OP last week.

So either the stat is flawed or he’s better than most think.

Most likely, it's both.

The stat is likely a tad flawed and they're all a little bit better than most people here think.

I don’t think run blocking is that bad. Andy just hardly ever lets them run. When CEH gets 20 carries, he racks up the yards. But that’s only been 2 or 3 games this year.

The Baltimore game was the outlier - he had 20 carries for only 64 yards against a pretty stout run defense.

Otherwise, in his games with 10 carries or under, he rushed for 14, 21, 46, 40, and 38 yards. 4.0 yards per carry.

11 carries or more?

37, 69, 161, 64, and 138. 5.1 yards per carry.

Imagine if you will Osemele in and allegretti opposite him.

Context matters though. Sure we've been able to run it at times. But it's not a secret we can't run it on 3rd and 1 or at the goalline.

The line is doing about as well as can be expected considering the limited resources spent there and the opt-outs, although I haven't been all that impressed with LDT for a while now so I'm not sure his presence helps all that much.

There are a number of needs going forward, and we don't need a 2003 Chiefs type OL, but if we can just somehow find the resources to turn the IOL into more of a strength I think it makes the offense that much more unstoppable. I was hopeful that the signing of Osemele earlier in the offseason was a sign that they might be pivoting more towards powerblocking types on the inside, but that may just be wishful thinking. An OL that can blow people off the ball in short yardage makes Mahomes and co. even more lethal.

And back to pass blocking, perhaps PFF grades account for this but Mahomes clearly covers for a lot of deficiencies in pass protection with his pocket presence and mobility. Put a less capable QB behind this OL and I think you see their pass protection grades plummet.

Probably has a lot to do with #15. When he scrambles he gets good chunks of yards and since he is such a threat to beat teams through the air opposing teams rarely stack the box to stop our run. They are more concerned with stopping the passing game.

That doesn't make the line any less effective. Very few teams in the NFL can run effectively against a stacked box.

Some of that is the Mahomes factor for sure.


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Of course context matters. And of course Mahomes makes everyone around him better.

However, I'm not sure why that's relevant. The reality is that we have Mahomes so the line is doing its job more often than not.

Well, I want to be really clear-

We're a defending Super Bowl Champion team that looks like a good bet to run it back.

Any and all weaknesses should be taken with a grain of salt.

BUT-

Mahomes' pocket awareness makes things look better than they are.

Wylie and Reiter are below average. Both are pretty damned lousy as run blockers, and real mediocre as pass blockers.

As we have the best player the game has maybe ever seen, I think investing some serious draft capital in keeping him healthy is really important going forward.

Yeah, we're probably good enough to win it again. My concern is that Patrick stay healthy.

Yeah, it's too bad the run blocking sucks so bad because otherwise, the Chiefs would have the #1 scoring offense in the NFL.

This is completely irrelevant.

If Mahomes didn't have such amazing pocket awareness, Andy's scheme would be very different.

Reid tailors his offense to his offensive weapons and QB, which we've seen time and time again since he arrived in 2013. The 2014 offense with Alex Smith was completely different than the 2017 offense with Alex Smith because that year, the Chiefs had a seasoned Kelce, a 2nd year receiver in Hill, an amazing complimentary running back in Kareem Hunt and so on.

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter whether or not the offensive line is filled with five 1st round draft choices or a mixture of UDFA's and draftees - Andy Reid will design an offense that's best suited to his personnel.

Exactly.

Remmers has been a surprise. He has had some good performances against some good pass-rushers. Heck, I thought he'd get smoked by Crosby, but for the most part he held his own.

But the run-blocking has been up and down. Even in the same game. There are downs where Reiter and Wylie get destroyed, and others where they do a decent job. They're never great, but in some games they're serviceable.

Overall, I think they're playing just well enough to get us to the SB.

LMAO

Just because things are going well, doesn't mean they always will. Mahomes' knee injury last year was a fluke, but his ankle injury could be attributed to the OL getting him hit a lot.

I don't think anyone is saying we want five 1st rounders on the OL. It's not a stretch to suggest maybe a bit more of an investment beyond UDFA or 6th/7th round picks would be helpful.

They just took a guy in the 3rd.

And there are five positions, so I personally think more is eventually needed. It depends on what his long term position is, but if he's an eventual replacement for either Schwartz or Fisher that's probably at best a wash. That does nothing for the IOL. And if his long term position is at guard, well then Schwartz isn't long for this team most likely so a significant investment at RT is still a need.

You are absolutely obsessed with any position that you feel is understaffed or under-talented, despite the fact that the Chiefs are 19-1 in the past calendar year.

The Chiefs have the #1 offense in terms of yardage and the #2 offense in points at 31.6 points per game, just behind the #1 Packers at 31.7 points per game.

Enjoy the ride while it lasts.

Yeah. It'd be nice if he was actually playing so we could evaluate him. Is he gonna stay a tackle or moving inside when he decides to play I wonder?

:D
Glad we agree.

How am I obsessed? I'm well aware we're in a good spot to run it back. Clearly any discussion on changes to the OL are centered around 2021, and have nothing to do with the current construction of the OL.

The original post you quoted by Chris Meck gave the disclaimer that we're in a good spot and have an excellent roster, and apparently that still isn't enough for you?

Am I coming out with statements of "The OL sucks!!!"? No, I'm giving thoughts on ways I personally would like to see them strengthen the team going forward into 2021 and beyond.

Is it really the end of the world to suggest Austin Reiter and Andrew Wylie are replacement level and if the opportunity presents itself those positions should be addressed?

Rather, it's simple minded and short sighted to say "The Chiefs are 10-1 and will repeat as Super Bowl champions, zero criticism of the team is allowed." Hell, I'm not even criticizing them. They've done as well as can be expected on the OL considering what they've invested.

Countless posts about the linebacker and corner group as well as the lack of high draft picks along the offensive line.

You and others need to face the fact that Andy Reid and his entire staff, from Mark Donovan to Brett Veach on down, do not value offensive lineman, cornerbacks and linebackers as other teams in the league, whether it's past Chiefs teams or the other 31 teams in the league.

That's been clear from the onset and yet you and so many others live in the past. I was the only person in March & April stating that the Chiefs needed to draft a RB early and was told by nearly everyone that Center or Guard was the priority, which of course, was not the priority.

You and the others that think like you are going to be miserable until you realize that the personnel that you believe to have high value to this team and require high draft picks to compete are not anywhere near as valuable to this regime as you believe.

I totally get that. I'm just not comfortable with all the hits Mahomes was taking this week, for example. Yeah, we were still successful, but at some point, those hits take a toll.

So I'd like to get better on the interior line in particular is all I'm saying. I don't like Suh pummeling Patrick, and in the long-term view, the fact that the offense was still successful in spite of that is secondary. We're probably entirely good enough to win the SB as is, but I'm concerned about the long term health of the golden goose.

Financially speaking, that probably means drafting upgrades.

I'm not saying it has to be first rounders. I think Niang is promising, and a redshirt year is probably good for him health-wise. I think 3rd and 4th rounds are good places to find quality offensive line prospects.

I'd just like to see some guys that might be upgrades sooner than later, and UDFA usually take a while to be ready to play, if ever.

I’ve been surprised by Remmers. He’s done a quality job at RT, though Andy has used the Alex Smith quick play playbook to help them out.

Either way, I think we need to have a full medical look at Schwartz and if he’s not in a good place then Remmers becomes priority numero uno this offseason.

Niang was coming off a major injury. It's unlikely he'd have been 100% this season anyway. My conspiracy theory is that Veach and Reid might have encouraged him to take the red-shirt year and get healthy. I'm sure they're monitoring his progress and have him on a workout regimen.

Niang has a OT build for sure. When you look at him and watch him move, he looks like Willie Roaf.

Now I personally think Roaf was the best offensive tackle I ever saw play the game, and I'm not saying Niang=Roaf. I'm just saying he's physically similar. I would imagine that plan is that he could eventually be a plus player outside. I have no doubt he could be a plus player inside even sooner.

Again, OL to Reid are like RB's to Shanahan.

He wasn't going to be a tackle to begin with.

Veach said they were going to start him inside at guard and see where it went from there.

I assume he would eventually move to tackle but the plan was to start him at IOL.

I was right there with you at RB. It wasn't my first choice, but I understood the thought process and I like the pick for the most part.

I've also admitted that I was wrong at cornerback, but even then that formula won't necessarily work forever and there still could be a time where they strike out with the picks later in the draft and have to invest a higher pick.

They spent a decent chunk of change on Hitchens, and they just spent a 2nd on Gay. I'm not sure I would agree that they don't value the position, what I do question is their scouting and talent evaluation there.

KC drafted Mitch Morse in the 2nd and now Lucas Niang in the 3rd, plus they were apparently considering Ruiz in the 1st. So I'd also disagree with the notion that they don't value the position. I agree they don't place as much of a premium on the IOL, which is why I am not suggesting they take an OL with a 1st or 2nd. I personally think the ideal spot is in rounds 3 or 4 with some of our extra picks, which is still more than they've invested at the position prior to Niang in quite some time.

You also have to understand that the same formula will not necessarily work year in and year out. At some point the weapons in the passing game simply won't be as good as they are now, because the chances of finding another Hill AND Kelce are slim. Maybe they address that with a stronger OL and run game. Maybe we go through a short period where the offense falls off a bit and the defense has to step up.

I don't prescribe to this notion that past results and trends will always be indicative of future results and trends. Things change quickly.

If Reid and Veach don't take an OL in the draft early on I'm not going to throw a hissy fit, even if I disagree. But with likely 6 picks through the end of round 4, if I were a betting man (which I'm not) I would bet that one of those 6 picks will be an OL. I would still like to see a DE, WR, and maybe CB/S taken before, if it falls that way, but I'd also like to see them stick to BPA. If the BPA in round 1 is OL, fine. If it's not until round 5, so be it.

Pretty sure this is Andy's SOP for the most part. Same thing with not wanting to start rookies. Not an absolute rule for him, but he seems to be more comfortable starting vets over rookies. Not gonna argue with success.

And Andy seems to always find a way to get the most out of the OL regardless of who's playing. We should all be pretty thankful about that. A lot of teams would've folded having to rearrange the OL the way he has the last couple seasons.

Wylie is a better run-blocker than pass-blocker.

IDK what you're talking about with that one.

This is fair.

I think given our financial situation, the high draft picks have to go towards premium (in terms of pay) positions - OT, DE, CB, WR, etc. You have to hit on as many as possible because we simply won't be able to afford Frank Clark's or Tyrann Matthieu's going forward.

LB and IOL are often cheap in free agency and you can often get by with middle rounders as well.

This cannot be understated.

We've had a ton of injuries on the o-line this year. More than most teams. Just look at the Eagles for example. They've been battling o-line injuries and they broke Wentz. Complete turmoil.

Given the circumstances I'd say the coaching staff has done a damn good job.

That's kind of what I remember too. I thought they were looking at him at LG since we had the Dr. on the other side. Hopefully LDT comes back next year and we can fully reload with significantly improved guards without having to use many picks this off-season there.

What do you mean? Andy likes vets over rookies, in general. As I said, it's not a hard and fast rule (Kareem Hunt for example), but Andy has never just thrown rookies on the field if he had a solid vet to rely on. And CEH doesn't count, because Andy would've started Damien week 1 if he hadn't opted out. When his choices were CEH, Darrel and Darwin, he made the logical choice.

But he didn't start Hardman last season, just for example.

And, yet, we've done exactly that. We've also thrown for first downs on 3rd and short. Honestly, our line has done well in both situations, compared to the rest of the NFL.

The Chiefs are #1 in 3rd down conversion percentage. Of course, it helps to have Pat. But, we have Pat.

Getting a full year to recover his body and (in theory) add on some weight/strength/flexibility will pay major dividends. Are players who opt out even allowed on site? I'm guessing not, so this'll all be up to him to do on his own.

Absolutely. It's also a myth that there are O-Lines out there simply blowing people off the ball. It may happen occasionally (in Cleveland or Indianapolis), but it's not often, given the size, speed, and strength of most NFL D-Line.

Indianapolis has probably the most vaunted offensive line in the league, especially on the interior.

They've given up 12 sacks, good for 2nd in the league but as a TEAM, they average 3.7 yard per carry.

Suh is a freaking stud, so he's going to get his each and every game. Now, if the guards and center were getting beat on a consistent basis by sub-average defensive lineman, there would most certainly be cause for concern.

But Suh and Aaron Donald and guys of that nature are going to get their licks in on whichever QB they're facing each week. Those guys are just freaks of nature.

Just about every position on the Chiefs roster could use an upgrade, which means that Veach and Reid decide which areas are of great importance and which are not.

As we've seen over the past 8 years, Reid just doesn't value interior linemen nearly as much as he values Skill Position players.

I think Andy likes the BPA, vet or rookie be damned.

2013: Started Eric Fisher, Knile Davis didn't start, but saw action in all 16 games.

2014: Zach Fulton started 16 games as a rookie. Dee Ford didn't start, but was a key rotational player as we had Houston and Hali already. Gaines saw a lot of snaps as a rookie, and De'Anthony Thomas was featured.

2015 Marcus Peters started. Conley started 5 games and saw significant snaps,

2016 Chris Jones started. Tyreek Hill saw significant snaps.

2017 Kareem Hunt.

There's history of him starting rookies, and using rookies as key contributors.

I think it's more of a case by case basis based on ability and understanding of the playbook. Vets clearly have an edge in the latter, but if the rook is talented enough that edge doesn't seem to matter so much.

My summary: I think there's enough evidence to show that he isn't shy about playing young guys.

Exactly. I shat on the Line for the first half of last season. I really haven't since. Given the injuries the Chiefs have endured this season, they're playing damn well.

Also, as previously noted, it's a complete myth that we can't convert in short-yardage situations. There are clearly times when we DON'T convert (both running AND passing), but there are also times when we DO.

If Chief Fan is complaining that we can't do it EVERY time (or most every time), well, join the club with the rest of the fans in the NFL. It's simply not going to happen.

This is absolutely true. No doubt.

It indicates to me that offensive line should be a priority moving forward. Just A priority. It's not like I'm saying we're terrible and can't win because our line is so bad.

But Schwartz has back problems now, and those don't typically get better after 30 for big guys. Reiter and Wylie are, I think we can agree, not plus players. LDT? He's probably overpaid for his production level. He's decent; better than Wylie.

I'm really quite pleased with Alegretti thus far. Remmers has been better than I thought he would be.

I'd like to leave Alegretti at LG, and upgrade at C and RG.

I don't think that's crazy talk.

Well, I mean, should we have signed Suh and let Chris Jones walk then?

Because Suh looked like a bigger problem than Jones.

I'm being facetious of course.

I agree that Reid doesn't value OL as much as skill position players, and I totally am not arguing that he hasn't been right in that. I'm just saying it might be time this offseason to move OL up the priority list a bit since the skill position spots are in such stellar shape.

The thing is-

the injury replacements have actually been bright spots.

Alegretti has been playing well. Remmers better than expected.

It's the starting center and right guard that are problematic. Let's say "subpar".

What is it that you don't like about Reuter?

Well, he's lousy at pass blocking and makes up for it by being even worse at run blocking.

I mean, I don't see how anyone can watch him and think he's good.

Kilgore was a fairly dramatic improvement in run blocking and he's JAG.

Have you ever noticed that we can run a bit on the perimeter, and we can run left inside the tackle/off guard, but can't hardly ever get anything inside right tackle?

I think Reiter and Wylie are about as bad as our LB play.

Neither situation is likely to cost a SB trip this year.

They might, but I doubt it.

But both areas are in need of upgrading I think.

Do you have evidence of that? ESPN (and simply watching the games over the past year or so) completely disagree.

Oh, okay.

Btw, Andy probably had almost nothing to do with Peters and Jones starting. The fact of the matter has always been that he leaves defensive decisions to the DC.

And I didn't say he wouldn't put rookies in a game. I said he doesn't start them very often, unless he doesn't have a better option.

I kind of doubt the Chiefs will spend anything other than maybe one of their first four draft picks on an offensive linemen, especially when there are needs at WR, LB, Safety and TE. And unless they spend a 1st or a 2nd, that rookie offensive lineman will likely spend his first year on the bench.

Reid seems to have far more success in taking guys late and developing them for a year or so before putting them in the game.

Fulton, LDT, Allegretti, Kelce in Philly, etc.

I think it's going to be a tough sell to convince Reid or Veach that they need to spend a 1st or 2nd on a Center when they just won the Super Bowl with an former 7th round street free agent, especially since they're 19-1 in the past calendar year.

No, I'm not going to go dig up film and post it.

I watch the line a lot.

I watched the difference when Kilgore was in.

You can entirely disagree if you want to, that's fine.

Reiter and Wylie are below average.

Every team has holes, even the Super Bowl Champions, and I think we can totally run it back. I just think it's an area in which we should seek improvement this offseason.

I think the issue here is that in your first sentence, you said "pass" blocking. The rest of your post was about run blocking.

One of the first four picks is totally fine with me. That means last year's 3rd and one of the first four in '21. That would be a good start. I agree with your other need positions and would raise you a DE.

Understand, I'm not chicken-littling here. I'm just saying that interior o-line could use some attention.

No, one sentence is about run blocking.

Reiter and Wylie are subpar across the board; they're both worse at run blocking than pass blocking, but they're pretty mediocre at pass blocking too.

Look, it's fine. I'm totally driving the bus. I just think while we're talking about the line I'm allowed some criticism.

I like Alegretti, he's been solid. Remmers has done a good job filling in. I think Wylie and Reiter kind of suck.

I'd like to see a little more investment in protecting Patrick going forward. Doesn't have to be a first rounder. 3rd or 4th maybe even would be fine along with some UDFA types as we normally do.

I'm not sure why that's controversial.

It isn't. :D

"This season, Andrew Wylie has an overall Pro Football Focus grade of 57.6, a pass-blocking grade of 60.7 and a run-blocking grade of 56.8. Wylie is the lowest-rated starting lineman on the Chiefs this season.

Wylie's grade has dipped 9.8 points from a year ago"

this is from an article in SI about titled: Wisniewski could be what the Chiefs are missing.



So, it ain't just me.

Wylie was a LG before this year, right? He got moved to RG because of LDT opting out?

weren't we all lamenting how bad our LG play was?

We were.

And he's worse at RG.

Anyway, let's hope Wiz is ready soon. He made a big difference I think.

He's on the wrong side of 30 so I don't know that you bring him back next year, but maybe on a one year deal or something.

anyhoo,

I just happened upon my point in print, so I thought I'd post it.

I can't trust any stat that says Austin Reiter is a good center, or good offensive lineman. The fact that he plays next to Wiley, and the defense just chooses to attack Wiley, has to play a big factor.

I thought the offensive line played much better with Kilgore at center. I think we had our best rushing games when Kilgore was playing center.

I just want Reiter and Wiley replaced so badly. I get so sick of watching Wiley watch his man sack, hit, or flush Mahomes from the pocket.

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Yeah, I'm not saying he's good. I'm saying last year he was "good enough" but we was also playing next to Fisher.

This year he's been playing next to husk of Schwartz most of the year and then replacement players the rest.

That might explain the drop-off from "meh" to "not good".

Kilgore isn't a very good pass blocker, though. That's the issue.

We have a lot of problems on the interior line.

I say we have two.

Reiter and Wylie.

:D

Alegretti has played well. Remmers has done a decent job, too in spelling Schwartz.

Yeah, they are just trash. I dislike them both, but I dislike Willey the most.

If this line was blocking for Matt Ryan, they could end his career they are so bad.

Mahomes makes them look much better than the actually are.

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Reuter was really good in the TB game. Hell, even Wiley played better than he has. Maybe they're both getting used to Wiley at RG.

ummm...wha?

That's not what I saw at all. I saw Suh being a real problem. 5 tackles, one for a loss and a QB hit. While being doubled most snaps by my eye.

If it was any mere mortal at QB we'd have been in real trouble.

It's not a mere mortal of course, it's Patrick ****ing Mahomes and we're the luckiest fans in football to have him.

Doesn't change the fact that Wiley and Reiter are in need of being replaced.

I understand not really watching the line as it's so much more fun to watch the ball, but I've been watching the line closely and no, they're not good.

It's not a dumpster fire, and it is what it is due to injury, but I am hopeful Wiz can jump in there and take RG as soon as possible.

And next season, we need to look at upgrading too.

Reiter is a FA and Wiley is a RFA in the upcoming offseason.

Chiefs will draft at least one IOL to replace them.

We'll probably have 2 4ths and I'd like to see both used on the line.

And the Chiefs would have a completely different offensive scheme if the Chiefs had any other QB.

Rankin should be ready to go