Mathieu v. Ward: Who Ya Got?
 

I think we all doubt the Chiefs can re-sign both of these players.

So if you had to re-sign either of these players this coming offseason and let the other walk, which one and why?

Mathieu. He affects the game in so many dimensions. Ward is a good corner, but corners are overvalued in this era in the NFL as they're not really allowed to do anything but run with receivers. Take Ward's comp pick and draft his eventual replacement, rolling with Sneed, Fenton, Hughes, and Baker + draftee.

I would not sign Mathieu to a long deal; maybe a 3 year deal that's in reality 2 years that we could get out of the 3rd if necessary.

Ward

4 years is a big age difference and Mathieu is going to want to be paid at the top of the market for obvious decline years. Ward plays a style that should age relatively well.

Additionally, I don't see any reason why Thornhill or even Fenton couldn't step into that swiss-army role and we can back-fill with younger talent or another draft pick. If we lose Ward, Fenton will be moving outside. Whereas if we keep Ward, we could slide Fenton into Mathieu's role - he's an intuitive, physical player in his own right.

But really, I'm not re-signing a 30 year old DB who's method of messaging is getting stale.

That messaging is instrumental to Spags doing what he does.

And I don't know how it's getting stale. The communication and scheme work in the back 7 is elite right now.

That's lining up. It's not the "You my guy, Five!" howling that Mathieu does all the time.

There's a difference between on-field communications and 'messaging'.

I think his type of leadership has a shelf-life before it's tuned out. I think we're reaching that point. Like I said, when things were going poorly and he was out there showing guys up, he was as much a part of the problem as he was a part of the solution.

And Fenton coming in with Ward and Thornhill and playing assignment sound football sure made the scheme look better, didn't it?

If I can keep those 3 guys around next year and drop Mathieu (the defense didn't improve when he came back after week 1, nor did the communications/assignments), i think that's the way to go.

Fenton was a 6th round pick.
Ward was an undrafted player we traded a backup lineman for.
Sneed was a 4th round pick.

I mean, these guys are all playing at high levels right now. We can -- and should -- credit the coaches for that. But they're not the only culprits here. Mathieu has shown them how to watch film, how to put in the hours, and we have evidence from Veach himself that he's the first call these new, young players receive when they join the team. He also gives them rare, sincere public shout-outs that you rarely see as well.

And I really want to underline this point, even though I've said it before: the year we won the Super Bowl, it was Mathieu that won the team MVP, not Mahomes, which of course is not remotely a knock on Mahomes.

That doesn't disprove your theory, that Mathieu's leadership style is now reaching the end of its shelf life. But it does put the burden on folks like yourself to prove it, because Mathieu's degree of messaging has absolutely owned this team's mentality. It's possible they'll phase him out, but I personally have no evidence that they are.

Ward is a very good player and honestly it wouldn't upset me if they signed him over Mathieu for the reasons you've mentioned.

But I think Mathieu brings too much for too many and we haven't seen a decline in his play.

Give me a three year deal that makes him cuttable in Year 3.

I just can’t see Spags being happy about letting Clark, Hitchens and Matheiu all go in one offseason.

I think he’s gonna want to keep at least one of em. And that would easily be Matheiu

In theory I agree. Mathieu is a different breed of cat. I think you're right, but Mathieu has made an entire career of embarrassing fools that underestimate him.

I'm bad at the liklihood game, so less than a grain of salt here. I think it's unlikely Mathieu plays up to a top of the league contract. At least if it's over 2 years. So if he is willing to walk for that, dueces.

The wonky part is if he's willing to take less, it's how much less and how long. That has a higher probability of working out, obviously.

As far as the message, IDK man, it's hard to put yourself in the locker room. If his messaging is getting stale, which I think Reid is good enough to identify, he gone. I think it's possible Mathieu is just so goddamned smart anybody with anything rattling around in their dome has to at least respect him.

I stand by my original position, that I put out an offer I'm comfortable with and try to convince him that the money after football will more than make up for the salary if he stays here and wins Bowls instead of wallowing in anguish in Detroit or NYJ or whatever.

I think it's unlikely he takes that deal, but that's where I come from.

I think you've struck on the most important piece of the pie here.

As bad as they were the first 7 games, I was in favor of a total gutting and start over. It looked bad, like they weren't playing hard for Spags anymore and defense is a lot about WANT TO.

Since then, Spags has more than saved his job.

I think it's hard to argue that it all depends on the front 4. If they get pressure and are sound in their run gaps, the entire defense looks much better. But I can't see Spags wanting all 3 of his position group leaders gone in one offseason.

Hitch is outclassed by Bolton, that's easy. Clark disappears for entire seasons, is wildly expensive, and has serious off-field issues, that's easy. Mathieu would cost as much as a slightly above average CB. I think depending on the length of the deal, that's the more likely option.

Ward. Move Sneed to Mathieu's role if you don't get a guy like Justin Reid or Marcus Williams in FA that can cover anyone.

why are we moving a guy who's great into another role? Why not leave him where he's great?

Ward is going to get like $15m+ per on the FA market.

I don't think corners are worth that under the current rules.

Sneed has been great in every role he's played in this defense. If the money makes sense I'd kinda like to see that move too

So it's hard to argue but then you follow it up with the main argument. Interesting strategy.

How good was the defense with Mathieu on the field and 0 pass rush?

How good is the defense with a pass rush?

What kind of impact is Mathieu having in the defense since the Chiefs started getting pressure on the QB?

We really think the most likely option is to pay a safety for a handful of tackles and 1 PD every 4-5 weeks over a pass rush?

If Mathieu was going to put pen to paper for just above an average salary, he wouldn't be due to enter FA at the end of the year.

What's an average safety get in FA these days? Like half of what he's bringing in now, maybe even quite a bit less than that? There's only 18 safeties in the NFL averaging more than $7M. The last time a team asked Tyrann to take a pay cut for his diminishing play on the field they had to release him because he told them to **** off.

Mathieu said he was disrespected by Jamal Adams deal. Maybe he wasn't asking for as much as him but he clearly thinks hes better than him and he got as much as he did. Whether or not Mathieu becomes the highest paid safety in the league, it's clear he's going to want to be paid as one of the best, and it's also clear that most teams aren't shelling out that kind of dough for a safety.

I would keep Ward, and it is an easy decision.

We just blew up our entire O Line and started three rookies, all next to each other. We can definitely lose Clark, Hitchens and Mathieu and be just fine.

Spags defense needs a great D Line to function. Put your resources there.

Ward, but we should be able to keep both provided Reek gets an extension.

I get the feeling that the team really wants to keep him around. But I don't know about paying a premium price for a player at his age and stature. Pretty soon he won't be able to overcome his physical limitations with athletic ability. Hell we might be starting to see it on these pics he's missing by a step

we need both....although I think Sneed can do it all at this point
He was a safety in college

The difference is that Mahomes called Matthieu when we signed him and said “I’ve got the offense, you’ve got the defense.”

This defense has a lot of good players but who’s “got the defense” when Badger walks? There’s no heir apparent in that regard, though obviously I’m not in the locker room. But Chris Jones is not that guy — simply being amazing at your job does not make you a great leader, ask Justin Houston in 2017 as he tried and failed to contain Marcus Peters with Eric Berry on IR.

Neither. Just move on. Veach is really good with this position group.

I think Ward is the most improved defensive player or took a leap this year if he continues to improve he'd be worth it but dang HB leadership I just don't know how much shelf life he has left.

I really like our corners. But you have to start to trust that spags just has an incredible ability to develop CBs. Interestingly we havent had nearly as much success with developing young safeties. If we did Sorensen wouldn't be getting so many reps. I think Mathieu has given plenty of reasons to not bring him back. But without a doubt ward is more expendable.

From a cap perspective a similar deal to his current one looks ideal

Year 1-$5.9 million
Year 2-$16.3 million
Year 3-$19.7 million (can cut and save $14.8 million)

So basically it’s 1 year of a big cap hit if we do that. Sounds good to me

I’m not keeping Mathieu. Has he been great? Yeah. But he’s 30+ and he’s going to start declining at some point. No thanks.

are you just looking for an argument?

What I meant is that you can't argue against the importance of the front four. As your front four goes, so goes the rest of your defense.

I think we've seen first hand evidence, don't you?

As for Mathieu wanting big money-of course he does. It's the length of the deal that would give me pause-Even Adams deal is 4/$70m. So what, an average of $17.5? (I have no idea how the deal is structured and don't really care). At Mathieu's age and injury history I wouldn't want to do anything that long.

There's a noticeable difference between the salaries of corners and safeties. Jalen Ramsey's 5/$100m deal, for example.

If you want to keep Ward and let Mathieu walk, there's totally an argument to be made there, but the financial difference won't be huge. A solid starting corner in his prime years will be nearly as expensive as an elite safety. I'd bet Ward's next deal will be within a couple of million of Mathieu's per season. If you think Ward is as impactful to our defense as Mathieu is...well, I don't know what to tell you. Watch closer, I guess.

My position (which you seem to have misunderstood entirely) was that:

1) The defensive line is paramount. Everything stems from success up front.

2) Corners are OVERvalued in the NFL, because the rules favor the offense so much I don't think Corners are worth 2nd contract the cap hit.

3) Versatile Safeties are UNDERvalued as they can affect the defense in so many ways. Yet they're paid less than Corners.


Personally? I'm fine with moving on from both Ward AND Matheiu this off-season although I doubt The Chiefs do that. But if I have to pay ONE of them, just on principle, I'd pay Mathieu but I'd do it on a 3 year deal that you can get out of after 2. I wouldn't go any longer than that.

Totally valid position.

I'm not sure I want to pay either player, but the question was posed as either/or.

If Ward falls off some, I can see us inking him to 10m/year.

If he keeps playing like he has, though, some garbage team that thinks it can rebuild itself into a defense-first powerhouse like Detroit is going to break the bank for him.

Ward, I think, will run us 14m/year. Mathieu will be 16m/year? 17m?

Whose job most justifies that level of cap commitment? And who is harder to replace?

Mathieu wins both of those questions, I feel.

I'm going to approach this as best I can by taking his drama out of it...

I don't know that you can quantify what Ward brings relative to what Tyrann brings to the table as they are completely different skill sets but I'll do my best to. I do question the amount to be willing to give Mathieu.

Mathieu functions primarily as a really good slot, maybe the best in the NFL. Most slot guys cap out at around 6m per. His ability to get home on the blitz is a bonus that a lot of slot guys don't bring a team so I give him an added bonus there. Is that reason to give him 17 per? What's funny, is the Chiefs have another guy on the roster that does these top two functions well in Sneed and it's the biggest reason I advocate for Sneed to take over the Mathieu role with Fenton and Ward on the outside.

In most NFL defenses, the safeties make the alignments so he's not special in that regard. He's given a lot of credit for this here and I really don't think of it as a big deal. Is it positive? Sure, but it's just not special.

I also think far too much is given about leadership but yeah, give him a bump there. His message may start getting old for a lot of the guys though, especially since he didn't do himself any favors with team perception this season throwing his hands up in disgust every time a teammate ****ed up. I think you very seriously have to consider this. Unfortunately, we can't fully gauge how others on the team feel about that but I think you'd get mixed reactions and answers.

I do understand the concept of market value. If the market dictates you need to pay this guy 17m per to keep him around, then you also have to question whether or not it's worth it.

The Chiefs play Sneed all over the place too. He's not just on the outside. He's closer to Mathieu in his role than he is to a pure outside CB like Ward. I don't understand how/why people are against moving him permanently into Mathieu's role and going out and getting another CB?

And with Sneed at least as your safety net, there are some other options available in free agency. Would it not be wise to test the waters before committing 17m per to Mathieu?

Then you're looking at the decision to keep Ward or value him in relation to Mathieu as the counter. Ward is 25 years old and turning into one of the better corners. He impacts the defense positively, we have seen that since his return. Do I want to throw away a very good CB in his prime for a safety, no matter how good that safety might be? Good CBs aren't that easy to get your hands on. We saw when Ward was out that its more difficult to mask deficiencies when you have two inexperienced and/or lesser skilled corners on the field at the same time. It did run lock-step with other deficiencies so it's even more difficult to quantify the overall effect but there was one with more instances of receivers breaking deep and forcing over-the-top breakdowns.

I think it's as much, if not more of a mistake, to get rid of a really good young corner. It seems like you can get those slot safeties a bit more these days... Darnell Savage, Jordan Whitehead, Jimmie Ward, Antoine Winfield Jr., etc.

I guess I don’t see the argument here. I honey badger is a better athlete and a better football player and has a much higher football IQ than Ward, period. Seems pretty simple to me. And I like ward, but it’s much easier to replace ward than it is to replace Tyrann.

And I could care less about the social media stuff. I don’t pay any attention to it in the first place, and I honestly don’t get why anybody else does. It has the same relevance to football as worrying about what color underwear Andy Reid wears to the games. Which is to say absolutely nothing.

There is some good discussion here. Appreciate it not devolving into ****tardery.

I'm not smart enough to come to any conclusions here, but I have some observations.

I've said for a long time you can't have any weaknesses your you'll just get picked on. *cough*SORENSEN*cough cough*. Accordingly, we have to take a holistic approach. It's not a Mathieu vs Ward discussion it's a whole defense thing. That lends itself to a more even distribution of cap, vs a few big stars and scrubs. I don't know where the market is for these guys, but that probably doesn't bode well for Mathieu.

Another thing I noticed when the team was getting fisted by the run Mathieu was ... a problem. Hes' really big on tackling the ball rather than the runner. that's not a terrible approach because that can lead to fumbles. Problem is he didn't get any, and godDAMN did we need a stop. I really think several drives could have been stopped with a guy that would run downhill and make a hit. He (and everybody else! :cuss:) was standing waiting for the runner, rather than running downhill, closing the angle and making the tackle.

Now, since Bolton and Gay came in and the DL decided not to be ****s, it hasn't mattered, because, goddamn it, the FS shouldn't be your main tackler. But it is there. Probably not an issue in my book.

Regarding the messaging, it should go into the dynamic, but who the **** knows what's happening in the locker room. I gotta trust Reid here. He lets shit go maybe more than I'd want but in all his time I don't think he's ever let any lockerroom get away from him. I think another component you need to worry about regarding his attitude/leadership is if he declines athletically and is the guy getting beat. Again - Reid/Spags, but it's an issue.

I think the contract is also important. I wouldn't want to not be able to get out of it after 2 years. I'm guessing we won't bet able to come together on a reasonable contract, so it probably doesn't matter.

One of the knocks on Mathieu that I remember seeing pre-draft was that he 'doesn't have a position'. He's kind of a 'tweener'; part slot corner, part strong safety. That in and of itself isn't all that special, and can indeed be a liability except that his football intelligence is absolutely off the charts. I don't think you can just plug a slot corner in there and expect the same results. He's a strong safety nearly always lined up on the strong side of the offense, he just happens to have slot corner coverage skills. If he has a weakness, it would be that he's just so small that he's a willing but not the best run defender. If you can get out there with a blocker he's toast.

That being said, I'm not necessarily AGAINST letting him walk this offseason, and I don't think we SHOULD re-sign Ward. I think CB is a position we need to keep drafting, developing, and replacing. I don't think we should pay CB's that second contract premium as I don't think with the rules being the way they are they are worth the percentage of cap that the position demands.

I would rather sign a solid but less expensive vet to man Mathieu's spot, and I would sign another bargain guy like Breeland AND draft another mid-rounder. I think CB is one spot that Veach, Spags, and Madison have done a masterful job at considering very minor investment. They're great at finding corners and coaching them up, so let's keep doing that.

I won't be mad if they re-sign either Ward OR Mathieu but I'm not sure that's that's the best use of cap dollars in either case.

I probably wouldn't. But if I have to choose, I'd take Mathieu.

This secondary really clicked into position when Fenton proved himself capable of playing wide and allowed Sneed to float into the slot more.

Ward allows us to maintain that dynamic. I just think he does more for us in that he really frees up Fenton. Otherwise you’re talking about Fenton and Sneed as full time boundary corners amd am aging Mathieu being asked to fill that spot role almost exclusively.

Yeah- sticking with Ward. The return of Ward and emergence of Fenton is when this secondary really took off.

So you think Ward being better or worse doesn't have as much of an impact on the defense as Mathieu?

Mathieu goes out there and allows a 118.8 passer rating against the Raiders and people think he shutdown Waller all on his lonesome.

I'm sorry, but Ward playing like he has been recently has a much bigger impact on the defense than Mathieu at safety. I mean... you indirectly admitted it when you said that him being average would net the same kind of money as Mathieu being elite.

It's time to give the social media stuff a rest. But I think it will be cheaper to keep Ward and I think there is some upside to doing so. I wish there was a way we could trade him as opposed to just letting him walk though

Let's bracket the deals :
Mathieu 15-17m per year, four years, minimal dead cap in year four.
Ward 8-12m per year, 5 years, June 1 viable cut in year four.

Who do you pay, given these ranges?
What's your top dollar for each?

For me, Ward and Fenton outside with Sneed bumping to the slot makes a ton of sense. Plus with the savings you can still pick up a decent safety.

Ward.

But its the years not the money with Mathieu for me.

corners get paid more than safeties is what I meant, and I think you know that.

I'm talking about cap dollars per position. I think you know that too.

Ask yourself why that's the case. I think you know that.

:rolleyes:

Do you just talk past people like this in real life?

you're really just trying to create some self satisfied gotcha moment. You're not really even trying to discuss anything.

You feel like Ward is the right choice, that's fine and there are legitimate reasons to make that choice. I personally feel that perhaps it's best to move on from both, but if I had to choose, I would choose Mathieu but only on a short deal due to his age.

You can try to paint that as stupid, but it's clearly, objectively not.

Or we could have an actual conversation, you know, in which you actually consider another point of view and then agree or disagree and communicate your thoughts.

It is my opinion that corners are overvalued in the NFL due to the rules being what they are. So I don't think the difference in salaries between CB's and safeties is warranted. I think in particular, safeties that do a lot of work 'in the box' in the run game as well as have good cover skills-I think that has a bigger impact on a play to play basis all game long than an above average corner does.

That's my opinion, as someone who's watched football since 1978 and understands coverages and has watched as the game has changed pretty dramatically in that time.

I think Ward is a GOOD player, but I think financially we should let him walk and re-stock. I also think Veach, Spags, and Madison have shown great skill in coaching up late picks and UDFA's into good players, Ward being example #1.

If paying Ward OR Mathieu prohibits KC from spending on the defensive line, they should not do it. Everything starts with the ability to pressure with 4.

How is this not discussing anything?

Generally people dont contradict themselves so willfully as you seem to do when it comes to this subject.

"I think its hard to argue its all on the front 4" .... "What I meant was its hard to argue AGAINST"

"If you think Ward is more impactful than Mathieu then look harder" ... "Ward being average will make as much money as Mathieu being elite"

Here's the real problem with your logic beyond your obvious contradictions in everything you ****ing say.

Mathieu has a 72.4 passer rating allowed on the year. Ward was out for the section of the season where the defense was completely ****ing trash, Mathieu was not. Ward didn't get back til week 7. He's currently allowed a 73 passer rating. Not only is Ward's impact more clearly felt on the field, but like DJ said, paired with Fenton it allows the team to move Sneed to the inside where he has shown to be much better.

So it's not me that should be looking harder...

Dude. I haven't contradicted anything.

It's hard to argue that it's all on the front four. As in 'it's hard to argue the fact' that's it's all on the front four. It's implied in the sentence, but I can see how you could misinterpret. I was unclear, but nonetheless, I've clarified this for you. You can accept that, or keep insisting that I was saying something else, but says more about YOU than it does me at this point.

Mathieu does A LOT more than just cover. You don't acknowledge that. I do. That's why I feel he's more important to the overall defense than any single CB. You can disagree, and we can discuss why, but if you're just going to ignore my clarifications and insist I have a position that I don't have, then you're just talking past me and not interested in discussion. You're trying to score points, and that's not a discussion.

Ward got back in week 7...which is also about the time when we got Ingram, moved Jones back to DT more often, and Frank Clark decided to actually...like, try hard. So the front four has been MUCH better. It's not a shock that the secondary's statistics also shot up that same week. You can believe that's all about Ward, but I believe it's mostly about the front four. I like Ward, I think he's a good player, I'm not saying he isn't.

I believe that the absolute most important thing in the success of an NFL defense, with the current rules regarding secondary play is that you MUST be able to pressure and disrupt the offense while rushing 4. I think that's paramount. Is my opinion clear? I've said it multiple times in multiple threads for several years, but just in case you missed it- It's ALL about the front 4 in MY opinion.

For this reason, my personal opinion is that CB's are OVER valued, and I think versatile safeties like Mathieu are UNDER valued. Separate discussion, and we can disagree, but I think a guy like Ward affects passing plays only more or less, and a guy like Mathieu affects every facet of the offense, running, passing,etc. His football intelligence is off the charts. I have concerns about his age, and so I wouldn't sign him to a long deal, but given a CHOICE between Ward and Mathieu, I would choose Mathieu. My overall choice would be to let both go and re-stock. But IF I HAD to pick one, I would choose Mathieu.

I have no idea what the Chiefs will do; although if it comes to that choice I bet they'll sign Mathieu as I don't see Spags wanting to lose all 3 position group leaders in the same off-season. But we'll see.

It's not just a choice between Mathieu and Ward.

It's a choice of Mathieu vs the ripple effect of having Ward on the outside being a pretty damn good CB.

It's pretty damn close to the effect Ingram had on the front for the secondary.

Do you think Mathieu provides more than Sneed?

Since Ward came back and it's been Fenton and Ward on the outside lets compare Mathieu vs Sneed.

Mathieu: 24 tackles, 1 QB hit, 1 TFL, 1 PD

Sneed: 32 tackles, 2 QB hits, 2 TFL, 5 PD, 2 INTs

Now which is easier to replace? A pretty damn good CB or a 30 year old safety thats losing a step on the field?

Ward's been very good. Sneed's been great. I would argue that Sneed is more important than Ward due to his positional versatility, superior blitzing ability and his aggressive tackling.

Does he provide more than Sneed? Not on the stat sheet at this point in the season. But there are a lot of things that aren't on the stat sheet that having a Mathieu on the field make possible.

What's the ripple effect of Mathieu not being on the field? Sorensen gets 100% of the snaps again? I'd say that would be a bad ripple effect.

I just think you're looking at things in isolation and looking for statistics to back that view rather than considering the whole.

Corner has been the one position group that they have had the most success at. In no way am I worried about replacing Ward.

If they keep him then that’s fine but I hope they don’t overpay.

Sneed and Thornhill. Next?

Sneed is absolutely more important than Ward due to his positional versatility.

But without Ward, you're probably resigned to Sneed playing boundary every snap. That's going to largely neutralize his blitzing ability and his first-step quickness is so crucial in the slot. Moreover, there just aren't many guys with his kind of athleticism that also have his size and physicality. He's essentially Marlon Humphrey in the slot. Keeping Ward allows you to continue utilizing him in that way.

Otherwise your options are Sneed out wide or trying to get something out of Baker in the boundary role and he's just not looked up for that.

And ultimately I think a Mathieu deal is a 2 year deal with a dead cap charge in year 3; it's far more of a band-aid. And you're paying market price for him+ due to his name value. So there's likely nothing but downside in that deal. Meanwhile Ward may still be a tick undervalued and a 4 year deal likely has him around all 4 years. There's more upside baked into a Ward deal, IMO.

I would imagine a boundary corner is tougher to find and replace than what Mathieu does.

Than what Mathieu did? Perhaps not. Boundary corners can use the sideline to cover for some of their lack of baseline athleticism. More and more teams are using really dynamic options in the slot to avoid press coverages and get them into space.

Many genuine 'wide' receivers these days are your bigger, more physical guys. And CBs that can body someone up a bit are a little easier to find than dudes that can hang with waterbugs in the slot without a press.

Mathieu could do that. If he were 25 I may be inclined to value his skill-set more highly than Wards. I just don't think he'll be able to maintain that into his 30s. He's already declining physically and getting by on guile - he's not far from that cliff where his baseline athleticism just isn't good enough anymore. Especially for an undersized player.

Plus Ward will be cheaper and you can get an adequate safety for the difference in Mathieu and Ward's costs. This frees up draft capital as well, since we would need to prioritize either position in the draft if unfilled.

Hard to know who will be cheaper as the market is just weird sometimes.

I never expected Kyle Fuller to get the monster deal he got with Chicago but his market just exploded. Ward is a very similar sort of player, IMO. His market may just come together better than we expect (for the reasons I outlined).

Meanwhile Mathieu is a 30 yr old safety who's outspoken on social media. It wouldn't take more than a couple of teams deciding that his age and the potential headache aren't worth the trouble for a bidding war to fail to materialize and his market stagnates.

I'm presuming the costs to be largely equal and I'd STILL take Ward.

I think it's pretty clear that you're paying him for more than name value.

Mike DeVito mentioned this on his podcast: coaches can only take you some of the way, and can only prepare you so much, due to NFL rules. It's up to NFL leaders (and DeVito cited Derrick Johnson) who can hold their teammates accountable and do the extra digging into film, technique, and keeping everyone accountable that separate the leaders like DJ and Mathieu from players who are simply excellent on the field.

Ostensibly, paying Mathieu allows you to continue making bargain purchases at the other secondary positions of value. He is a "rising tide" player, who lifts the production everywhere else in the secondary.

Well, I'd be forced to agree that Ward would be cheaper. At best, Ward is a top-20 CB (probably somewhere between 15th-20th). Mathieu is a bona fide top-5 S, one of the best to do it since Polamalu, his social media activities notwithstanding.:rolleyes:

Btw, just FYI, Honey Badger isn't going anywhere. Spags' recipe for this defense seems pretty clear at this point: spend money on the spine of the defense (DT/DE/MLB/S) and find cheap labor to fill in the rest, including CB. The SB run showed quite clearly Spags doesn't necessarily need elite CBs, just physical, intelligent, competent ones. Safety is where Spags wants to have elite players.

You are mistaken if you think Spags decides how much each player gets paid.

? Never said that. Never even thought that.

But he does have a say in who is on his defense. he picked Mathieu in the first place. And his exact words were "that guy can do everything."

Add in the fact that Spags is a Swiss Army knife guy, and a secondary guy, and there's really no one on the team right now that could replace HB, it seems pretty straightforward, no?

Sneed cant replace a 2022 version of Mathieu?

LMAO

Sneed is a better athlete, no question. But football IQ? There's no comparison. I really like Sneed, but he still needs a lot of seasoning before I'd say he was even close to the same level as Tyrann.

:LOL:

:shake:

let me take a different angle here.

Where have the Chiefs prioritized defensively since Veach took over?

Clark, Mathieu, Hitchens, Jones are your big money contracts. Half of your front four, MLB, Safety/slot.

In the draft: Thornhill, Gay, Bolton, Speaks (!), a FS, two LB'ers, and a tweener defensive lineman, all second rounders when we've only had two first rounders at all in that time, spent on Mahomes and Clyde. (That Speaks washed out doesn't matter, we're talking initial investments here.) 3rd rounders? Nnadi, DOD.

Now let's look at the CB room-
Ward, UDFA trade for Ehringer.
Fenton, 6th rounder.
Sneed, 4th rounder.
Hughes, trade for a 6th.
Baker, FA
Bootles 6th right?

So what does this tell us about the upcoming offseason?

KC prioritizes front to back and then inside out. Meaning, front 4 first, and then your inside players at LB and S with CB investment being lowest of the position groups.

Well, IF we continue the prior blueprint, we'll spend FA money on the front 4, as well as higher draft capital. Since we've spent two #2's at LB probably skip that this year, but the S position will need either a Mathieu re-signing or replacement, and a Sorensen replacement.

And Ward probably walks.

Maybe they change their tactics but that would fit what they've done so far.

Also, somebody here had posted that against the Raiders, Mathieu had a super high completion rate covering Waller and that was an indication of a decline in his play. For the record, Waller had 4 catches for 24 yards with a long of 11 despite having an 8" height and like 70 pounds weight advantage over the much smaller Mathieu.

So, whatever else we feel about Mathieu, that we're tired of his social media nonsense, that his prima-donna business about his contract is tiresome, that he's getting older, that his prior injury history is cause for caution, etc-all of that is relevant, BUT this idea that he's declined is not, in my opinion, based in fact.

I'll repeat what I've already said here just so it's CLEAR: My preference is to move on from both Ward and Mathieu, spending more of the cap dollars on the front four and drafting replacements DE, at safety and CB as well as bargain shopping.

But I'll be surprised if the Chiefs don't re-sign Mathieu to some sort of a deal that they could get out of after year 2. Like a 4 year deal that's really a 2 year deal kind of thing.

But we'll see.

The bizarre thing about how good L'Jarius Sneed is, is you could theoretically ask him to replace either player.

Sneed is a swiss army knife nickel corner who can play some safety, whereas Mathieu is a swiss army knife safety who can play some nickel corner. Aside from the leadership gap, you could replace one with the other.

Then again, maybe Spags likes having two of these swiss army knives in the secondary, and sees Ward as the easier replacement to make.

I'd keep in mind Reid's overall mantra about DE's and CBs and figuring out the rest with regards to defense.

That said, I looked back to see if where we are now correlated to being cheap on CB throughout Reid's tenure to debunk or prove his mantra and gauge how KC approached the position overall.

Since Reid has been here, they've invested fairly heavily at DB in sheer volume. In terms of draft resources, they have 1 R1 (CB), 1 R2 (S), 3 R3 (3xCB), 3 R4 (1xCB, 1xS, 1 Hybrid) 1 R5 (S), 4 R6 (2xCB, 2xS), and 3 R7 (1xCB, 2xS). I'd say that's a fairly solid distribution and I'm actually surprised they got away with not spending much in rounds 1 and 2. In FA, they did spend a bit on Sean Smith (3 for 18) and Darrelle Revis (2 for 11 but he never counted too much of that because of late signing and early release), with only Tyrann being the big one.

Here's a transaction list:
2013 - Round 5 - Sanders Commings, S
2013 - Signed UFA Sean Smith, CB
2013 - Claimed off Waivers FA Ron Parker, S
2013 - Claimed off Waivers FA Marcus Cooper, CB
2013 - Signed UFA Husain Abdullah, S (re-signed 2014)
2013 - Signed UFA Quintin Demps, S
2013 - Signed UFA Dunta Robinson, CB
2014 - Round 3 - Phillip Gaines, CB
2014 - Signed UDFA Daniel Sorensen, S
2014 - Signed from BAL PS Jamell Fleming, CB
2014 - Signed UFA Kurt Coleman, S
2014 - Traded Rishaw Johnson, G for Kelcie McCray, S
2015 - Round 1 - Marcus Peters, CB (traded for 3rd in 2018)
2015 - Round 3 - Steven Nelson, CB
2015 - Signed UFA Tyvon Branch, S
2016 - Round 3 - KeiVarae Russell, CB
2016 - Round 4 - Eric Murray, CB
2016 - Round 6 - D.J. White, CB
2016 - Signed UFA Terrance Mitchell, CB
2016 - Traded 2018 7th for Kenneth Acker, S
2017 - Round 6 - Leon McQuay, S
2017 - Signed UFA Keith Reaser, S
2017 - Signed UFA Steven Terrell, S
2017 - Signed UFA Darrelle Revis, CB (late Nov)
2018 - Round 4 - Armani Watts, S
2018 - Traded Parker Ehinger, OG for Charvarius Ward, CB
2018 - Traded Alex Smith, QB for 2018 3rd and Kendall Fuller, CB
2018 - Signed UFA Orlando Scandrick, CB
2018 - Traded 2020 7th for Jordan Lucas, S
2019 - Round 2 - Juan Thornhill, S
2019 - Round 6 - Rashad Fenton, CB
2019 - Signed UFA Tyrann Mathieu, S
2019 - Signed UFA Bashaud Breeland, CB (re-signed 2020)
2019 - Signed UFA Morris Claiborne, CB
2020 - Round 4 - L'Jarius Sneed, CB/S
2020 - Round 7 - Thakarius Keyes, CB
2020 - Signed UFA Deandre Baker, CB
2021 - Traded 2022 6th for 2022 7th and Mike Hughes, CB

What's clear is that they haven't really swayed hard with resources one way or the other during Reid's tenure if we're looking at the argument for an "inside-out" or "outside-in" preference. Draft spending early favors CB while they got a lot of bang for their buck in FA at S and decent returns at CB.

In terms of Bart only, yes, there's a bit more of a tendency to acquire safeties with more resources (higher draft picks and bigger FA contracts). That said, he's never had a pure need at CB. He had Steven Nelson and Kendall Fuller to start in 2018 with a vet in Scandrick while Ward developed. He got a deal on Breeland in 2019 to go with Fuller and a vet in Claiborne while Ward developed more and got more reps. They keep Breeland to start with Ward in 20 while Sneed and Fenton are developing, and the trend continues. It's a nice place to be.

The question for 2022 will be if they let Ward walk, is Fenton ready to step in and start like Ward did after 2 years of seasoning (I think yes), and can they add another cheap vet like they continue to do year after year (also, I think yes)? This issue is they don't have that guy developing underneath yet, that they'd have to hit on in the draft, which I'd think they could do again as well. That means CB could continue to churn, if they so choose, with developing guys for 2 years underneath established starters. That said, you limit your ability to move Sneed around by going this route.

As for S, they've had a lot of luck pre-Veach in signing guys off the street on modest deals and getting solid returns for a year. I don't know that you have to break the bank on a guy like Mathieu to have a net positive there. I feel as though Mathieu is a luxury item in as much as re-signing Ward to keep Sneed mobile is a luxury.

If I'm picking my luxury, I'd choose to spend less on Ward (more likely than not) because Sneed can give me a lot of what Mathieu does and I kind of kill two birds with one stone. Like Meck, I don't feel like signing either is a "necessity."

.

He's gonna get paid. And he'd cost the same as OBJ to tag.

Seems like we're looking at a 3rd round comp pick in all probability. Damn shame to see him turn a corner here and then watch him spend his prime in another uniform. He's really capitalized on that promise we saw on him the last several years. And he's a physical DB that can also operate in space. That's pretty rare.

We'll miss him in a big way, IMO. But he's just played so well this year that I can't see how we could end up affording him. Really wish we'd have gotten an extension done for him last off-season. That was a priority move for me and it just didn't seem that there was interest there.

https://www.chiefs.com/news/mike-hug...he-week-honors

Is it possible that Hughes is our Ward replacement?

They are both UFA, so no?

Hughes is not going to be expensive. He was benched partway through the season.

We probably can't expect him to match his Raiders level of productivity going forward, but he plays at, say, 80% of that ability, then we can Moneyball this thing.

Hughes could ostensibly give you 85%-90% of what Ward gives you at 1/3 the cost.

I think you take that deal (assuming Hughes' strong play continues). I still think you make a play in free agency or the draft for insurance. But he gives you something to work with if you don't.

Oh

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Resign 35</p>&mdash; Tyrann Mathieu (@Mathieu_Era) <a href="https://twitter.com/Mathieu_Era/status/1470905726084296705?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 14, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

That's not the first time Mathieu has gone to the Twitter-mat for Ward.