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-   -   Football The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone (https://www.chiefsplanet.com/BB/showthread.php?t=345295)

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 10:34 AM

The mystery of our fascination with Outside Zone
 
So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:

Quote:

The popularity of the outside zone system that stems from Kyle Shanahan and Sean McVay has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap. Theoretically, the defense can live in light boxes and invest more personnel in defending the pass as long as its front can slow down ball carriers long enough for the secondary to help. This works well against zone runs because offensive linemen move laterally, but the Lions like to run right into the teeth of defenses with authority. They want their offensive line, one of the best in the league, firing off vertically and punishing defenders.
https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

SuperBowl4 09-22-2022 10:38 AM

:arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::rockon::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow::arrow:

L.A. Chieffan 09-22-2022 10:52 AM

Reid has been doing the same running scheme since the old Philly days. I can still picture Brian Westbrook bouncing it to the outside

irafreak 09-22-2022 10:58 AM

I don't know. Maybe it compliments the passing game to help set up his screen game? Perhaps it forces the defense to read the play longer...I'm just spitballing here to keep the discussion rolling cause it's an interesting question.

Pasta Little Brioni 09-22-2022 11:05 AM

Sorry, I'm deferring to Fat Andy on this one

dirk digler 09-22-2022 11:09 AM

I admit I didn't know we ran that type of run scheme. From my novice eyes I never thought our run game looked anything like what Shanahan ran.

Dunerdr 09-22-2022 11:14 AM

I just want us to go power and make teams with light boxs pay sometimes. But we never really do.

R Clark 09-22-2022 11:32 AM

[QUOTE=Dunerdr;16481283]I just want us to go power and make teams with light boxs pay sometimes. But we never really do.[/QUOTE yeah I’d like to see the interior line go to work on DL

O.city 09-22-2022 11:33 AM

My idiot reasoning is that with limited training camp contact and such practices, it's easier to run a zone scheme than a man gap scheme as it requires more timing and such? Maybe?

Kman34 09-22-2022 11:34 AM

It seemed to work for Jamal Charles..

R Clark 09-22-2022 11:36 AM

Right but not all has his speed

Dante84 09-22-2022 11:45 AM

Quote:

...has led to more teams employing a Vic Fangio-style defense, which asks defensive linemen to play slower and take on a gap-and-a-half, rather than fly upfield and play only one gap.
Is this to help support the passing attack? If the D-linemen are slower to push into the backfield, I'd imagine this buys more time for the QB to scan, and more time for the WR's to get deeper downfield.

There's a counter-reaction to everything, sure, but I'm wondering if this is the logic.

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16481313)
My idiot reasoning is that with limited training camp contact and such practices, it's easier to run a zone scheme than a man gap scheme as it requires more timing and such? Maybe?

Dan Campbell managed to teach it in an off-season and he's dumb as a shoe.

petegz28 09-22-2022 12:46 PM

It seems we generally have good runs when we run at the defense. We saw that against the Chargers, especially at the start of the game. And they do exactly what the OP was saying, play a light box and try to bring up the secondary to support.

We started out our first drive running the ball really good up the middle...then we ran sideways on 3rd and 2 and lost 4 yards.

O.city 09-22-2022 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481502)
Dan Campbell managed to teach it in an off-season and he's dumb as a shoe.

Likely the case.

I'm not sure what the proclivity towards it is. IIRC, Andy was more of a man blocking gap scheme earlier in his career, not sure why the change?

Molitoth 09-22-2022 12:56 PM

I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

Buehler445 09-22-2022 01:04 PM

Count me in the too dumb to know group. I'm a ****ing moron.

I'd like to see it, at least some times. Not all the time. Just to **** someone in the ass on a drive.

If Reid were to hire me as a strategic consultant, which he would never do because ****ing moron, but if he did, here's what I'd suggest.

Run the first drive as you normally would hopefully it ends in 7. Rape away.

Next drive, line up in the I and turn the dial to **** you. If they can't stop it jam it down their throat and go get your 7. If they are filling gaps then unleash Mahomes on PA.

Then after that, you can work in some plays depending on effectiveness.

But if you make them gameplan for both, that will mean less time on the shit you want to run. The matchups you can exploit. All of it. And if they roll you out of it, hat tip, plus you know what they're going to do if you need to run to close the game.

I always respected the hell out of Belicheat and his cheating ****ing ass for switching from 5 wide to ****ing power to take advantage of teams that couldn't stop the run. **** all things Brother****ing Cheatriot ****bag, but I respected the hell out of it.

Now I know we don't have Dante Scarnecia, so we probably couldn't be as effective as they were, but we've got some horses and I'd like to see it. I get all hoosey goosey when Mahomes goes under center.

I fully recognize that a change in blocking scheme is no small ask. But getting it done will certainly help in attacking light fronts, but also closing the games.

/moron

kcclone 09-22-2022 01:58 PM

Vic Fangio pwned Andy Reid. Everyone knows that.

xztop123 09-22-2022 02:07 PM

I like these kind of posts.

Btw off-topic but we’re running a boat lot of cover 4 and zone defense in general. Maybe we are copying how other teams stopped mahomes- not sure.

I doubt we’d run that defense against a weak qb but the chargers game was from an eye test like 70 + % zone d

xztop123 09-22-2022 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante84 (Post 16481349)
Is this to help support the passing attack? If the D-linemen are slower to push into the backfield, I'd imagine this buys more time for the QB to scan, and more time for the WR's to get deeper downfield.

There's a counter-reaction to everything, sure, but I'm wondering if this is the logic.

This is what I was thinking. Especially with mahomes tendency to drift backwards.

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante84 (Post 16481349)
Is this to help support the passing attack? If the D-linemen are slower to push into the backfield, I'd imagine this buys more time for the QB to scan, and more time for the WR's to get deeper downfield.

There's a counter-reaction to everything, sure, but I'm wondering if this is the logic.

I don't think t helps, though. Especially when it allows DCs to stay in light boxes with smaller/faster personnel groups and not have run defense be a liability because they can use that speed to flow to the edges and cut off those outside runs.

If you want to help the passing attack, get teams worried about getting blasted up the interior so they put a Nnadi sort of guy in the middle or a Ragland sort at LB.

As it stands you can easily run a heavy nickel against us as a base defense. And you will give more reps to a guy like say Dre'Mont Jones on the interior vs. a Nnadi/Pennel sort.

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 16481572)
Count me in the too dumb to know group. I'm a ****ing moron.

I'd like to see it, at least some times. Not all the time. Just to **** someone in the ass on a drive.

If Reid were to hire me as a strategic consultant, which he would never do because ****ing moron, but if he did, here's what I'd suggest.

Run the first drive as you normally would hopefully it ends in 7. Rape away.

Next drive, line up in the I and turn the dial to **** you. If they can't stop it jam it down their throat and go get your 7. If they are filling gaps then unleash Mahomes on PA.

Then after that, you can work in some plays depending on effectiveness.

But if you make them gameplan for both, that will mean less time on the shit you want to run. The matchups you can exploit. All of it. And if they roll you out of it, hat tip, plus you know what they're going to do if you need to run to close the game.

I think Tim Grunhardt is a ****ing idiot and I can't stand him. But he once said something EXTREMELY insightful: The most valuable commodity in the NFL is time.

You only get so much practice time. There just aren't enough hours for that sort of radical shift in approach, IMO. You don't have the practice time for 2 completely different installs.

But I don't see how that would interfere with a shift from a zone scheme to a gap scheme over the course of an off-season.

But like you said - guy didn't ask me. I just don't have a good answer for it - Andy is a DAMN smart guy and obviously knows more about football than idea. Which makes it all the stranger that this appears as self-evident to me as it does.

If I think it's this obvious and yet Andy Reid isn't doing it, it must be because I'm reeruned because I know he isn't.

But try as I might, I can't figure it out.

Pasta Little Brioni 09-22-2022 02:37 PM

Clyde has over 7 YPC...

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother (Post 16481732)
Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xztop123 (Post 16481697)
This is what I was thinking. Especially with mahomes tendency to drift backwards.

I wonder if it's strictly a question of timing.

When you're operating from shotgun as much as we do, perhaps it's difficult for OL to time their blocks in a way that the holes are opening inside just as the runner is getting there.

Maybe by emphasizing outside zone the timing works better and the RB can go sideways with the play as the blocks are developing then get downfield as a hole opens.

There has to be something that's making it a necessity for the passing game to function well somehow.

Pasta Little Brioni 09-22-2022 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481745)
Just like last seas....oh wait. Our running game was miserable last year. Oh, and nearly half his yards this season came on a single run that was simple inside trap from under center.

I don't think you're making as strong a point as you think you are...

The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

Coochie liquor 09-22-2022 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molitoth (Post 16481550)
I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

I remember him running it down the Tits throats in that AFCCG.

1st & 10 at KC 27
(6:58 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right guard to KC 33 for 6 yards (R.Evans; K.Correa).
2nd & 4 at KC 33
(6:25 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams right tackle to KC 36 for 3 yards (K.Correa; K.Vaccaro).
3rd & 1 at KC 36
(5:47 - 3rd) Dam.Williams left guard to KC 41 for 5 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at KC 41
(5:09 - 3rd) (Shotgun) Dam.Williams up the middle to KC 42 for 1 yard (H.Landry).
2nd & 9 at KC 42
(4:29 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short left to S.Watkins to KC 49 for 7 yards (T.Brock).
3rd & 2 at KC 49
(3:49 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 47 for 4 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 47
(3:18 - 3rd) T.Hill right end to TEN 40 for 7 yards (J.Brown).
2nd & 3 at TEN 40
(2:31 - 3rd) (Shotgun) D.Thompson right end to TEN 33 for 7 yards (K.Byard).
1st & 10 at TEN 33
(1:46 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes scrambles left end ran ob at TEN 22 for 11 yards (L.Ryan).
1st & 10 at TEN 22
(1:13 - 3rd) Dam.Williams right end ran ob at TEN 18 for 4 yards (A.Jackson).
2nd & 6 at TEN 18
(0:38 - 3rd) (Shotgun) P.Mahomes pass short right to T.Hill pushed ob at TEN 3 for 15 yards (W.Woodyard).
END QUARTER 3
1st & Goal at TEN 3
(15:00 - 4th) P.Mahomes pass incomplete short right to A.Sherman.
2nd & Goal at TEN 3
(14:50 - 4th) Damien Williams 3 Yard Rush H.Butker extra point is GOOD, Center-J.Winchester, Holder-D.Colquitt.

I’d love to see more if that. Obviously don’t want to take it out of Pats hands. But killimg teams and clock with the run game is good as well.

BWillie 09-22-2022 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481177)
So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/


WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.

I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.

BWillie 09-22-2022 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunerdr (Post 16481283)
I just want us to go power and make teams with light boxs pay sometimes. But we never really do.

We should on short yardage...alot. But ya we don't usually

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother (Post 16481772)
The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

Plenty of threads to talk about bodily functions or personal finance if you've got something better to do than discuss football.

Nobody's crying about anything. It's a conversation about a fairly prominent component of one of the more diverse offensive teams in the game. I'm sure there's a baseball or Bronco's thread you can dive into if you find that more your speed.

DJ's left nut 09-22-2022 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BWillie (Post 16481867)
I may have been persuaded but then you brought up....VIC FANGIO.

2 high shell. 4 deep quarters. Whatever you want to call it.

Fangio was doing it back when it wasn't cool and now it seems like everyone is and they're opening themselves up for a power run attack in the process.

I'm trying to find out where the hole in the net is here. It CAN'T be that simple or someone other than Dan !@#$ing Campbell would've figured it out by now. Maybe it's just the natural evolution of the Greg Roman attack?

I dunno...it doesn't make sense to me.

Sorter 09-22-2022 08:23 PM

[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;16481177]So I'll gladly listen to anyone that wants to correct me on this one, but it sure looks to me like the Chiefs STILL prefer an outside zone running system and for the life of me I cannot figure out why.

There's an article in the Athletic that really sums up my confusing in a lot of ways. It's about the Lions dedication to a power gap scheme. Here's a little blurb that kinda makes my point for me:



https://theathletic.com/3613162/2022...e-ben-johnson/

For whatever reason, the article won't load for me but I'll try to answer as best I can.

Quote:

WHY IS THIS NOT OUR RUNNING GAME!?!?! Teams have been doing that Fangio shit to us for 2+ years now. They're living in light boxes and when we run the ball we're leading with our chins and running this damn outside zone crap that A) Doesn't take advantage of our power blockers as well and B) Lets the defense do what it wants to do, which is use speed and move laterally to race us to the sidelines and seal off big gains. It can essentially run Nickel formations and still manage that.
This is why we (and most teams) run inside zone against nickel. There have been a few teams that are OZ junkies (49ers/GB/Colts with Manning that would just say "**** it, you're not dropping that extra human into the box" that would run it out of trips (with 3W or 2W/1TE on the trips side). However, that has largely gone away with the cutback rules.

Quote:

Maybe they're doing more gap running than I realize or maybe I'm just too damn stupid to see the bigger picture of what they're trying to accomplish.
Chiefs (like most WCO based teams) throw power/gap concepts in as gameplanned concepts and will either lean on them/throw them away based on how they're doing. The E/P offenses of the past used power/gap concepts as their base but even the remnants of it have shifted to probably a 65/35 of OZ/Gap.


Quote:

But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more. When we run, it should absolutely be a gap scheme designed to just maul guys rather than this outside zone crap that just does them a massive favor while not taking advantage of our OL's greatest strengths.
For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)

Sorter 09-22-2022 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481749)
I wonder if it's strictly a question of timing.

When you're operating from shotgun as much as we do, perhaps it's difficult for OL to time their blocks in a way that the holes are opening inside just as the runner is getting there.

Maybe by emphasizing outside zone the timing works better and the RB can go sideways with the play as the blocks are developing then get downfield as a hole opens.

There has to be something that's making it a necessity for the passing game to function well somehow.

Plenty of teams in college conduct gap schemes from the gun ( Baylor during the Griffin era comes to mind).

The problem is you're now getting (in the nfl) a lot of double A or reduced fronts with pressure coming from all over. With zone, the rules are a lot easier and you can get your guys more reps for a variety of fronts.


IMHO, the cutback rules killed the outside zone and that's why everyone is struggling to run the ball. You can find success for a while with either belief but its ****ing hard to run the ball now.

Sorter 09-22-2022 08:32 PM

Also, I made the comment about us primarily running IZ in nickel.

Before the cutback rules, Philly with Kelly ran a **** ton of OZ out of the gun (you can tell based on the HB alignment)

kccrow 09-22-2022 08:44 PM

It helps dictate the aggressiveness of the defensive front 7, largely, which also helps the passing game... especially so when you start looking at RPOs in my opinion.

If you have a team pressing you and aggressively coming at you, OZ will force them to maintain more discipline in pursuit or they leave huge cutback lanes you wouldn't easily get running straight up their ass in a power scheme. Basically, you don't have a hole, you have many possible holes.

With the RPO, it opens up the middle and backside of the field since the LBs will be flowing to cut the play side edge and maintain gaps so they don't give up big gains.

And, the best, is OZ can be run much more easily out of a variety of formations and personnel groupings, something that is difficult to pull off in a PS.

Andy is running the right scheme.

cdcox 09-22-2022 10:24 PM

Not to mention that lineman are going to get upfield faster in a gap than a zone blocking scheme, which isn’t ideal in an RPO heavy offense. Not to say you can’t run gap RPO, but you are telling Mahomes not to improv with a gap RPO. Improv is the best part of his game.

oldman 09-22-2022 10:57 PM

We're way too predictable at times. I'm with Buehler on playing a little Martyball at times. It's not rocket science, if there's a guy in front of you just kick his ass. If there's not a guy in front of you, find one on the 2nd level and kick his ass. Force those opponents to come out of those deep cover packages.

ThyKingdomCome15 09-23-2022 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by L.A. Chieffan (Post 16481231)
Reid has been doing the same running scheme since the old Philly days. I can still picture Brian Westbrook bouncing it to the outside

I wish Clyde would do that more. Dude is way over committed to keeping it between the tackles.

Megatron96 09-23-2022 12:11 AM

The short response I have is simply, "I don't know."

However, I do remember that a very long time ago i read an article that stated that the WC offense was designed around the outside zone scheme. Could it be simply that this is the running scheme Andy just flat knows better than any other? Or that it simply provides the most flexibility for his play designs?

Shit, i don't know. I do know that every now and again I've lamented in a GDT that the Chiefs don't just sometimes ram the ball down the opponent's throats. **** all the fancy-dancy trickery; just everyone go forward, as violently as possible. I believe that KC has the IOL to do that against just about anyone. Though I have to admit that the fancy-dancy shit works way more often than not, so I can't complain as loudly as I'd like.

But sometimes it's just more atavistically satisfying to just punch your opponent in the face. Over and over.

Or so I've been told.

Armyofme 09-23-2022 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorter (Post 16482267)
For as much as he gets shit on (and rightfully so) McDaniels was great at blending these philosophies together (especially in no-huddle). There are numerous times where after NE would have a big passing completion where they would either A) Double up on OZ zone and have 3rd and short or B) OZ, then power and then power again.

Haley was a little bit against the grain during his time in Pitt as he would make IZ/Power their base runs (in contrast to Arians who was an IZ/OZ then power as a change up) then throw counter in as his change up (and DeCastro would maul people)

This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.

O.city 09-23-2022 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorter (Post 16482271)
Plenty of teams in college conduct gap schemes from the gun ( Baylor during the Griffin era comes to mind).

The problem is you're now getting (in the nfl) a lot of double A or reduced fronts with pressure coming from all over. With zone, the rules are a lot easier and you can get your guys more reps for a variety of fronts.


IMHO, the cutback rules killed the outside zone and that's why everyone is struggling to run the ball. You can find success for a while with either belief but its ****ing hard to run the ball now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorter (Post 16482273)
Also, I made the comment about us primarily running IZ in nickel.

Before the cutback rules, Philly with Kelly ran a **** ton of OZ out of the gun (you can tell based on the HB alignment)

You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?

DJ's left nut 09-23-2022 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16482526)
You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?

I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules. Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...

DJ's left nut 09-23-2022 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armyofme (Post 16482506)
This is what I was wondering... why not use them all? I understand that it takes time to install plays, but why not throw in various schemes? A play is a play, it's still X's and O's, who cares what scheme it's built on?

I'm sure there's much more to it than that. Hell, maybe we already do that and it just isn't often enough.

Maybe because Andy builds on his plays throughout the season?

He has plays that I'm convinced aren't designed to score points or even really gain yards. But rather just to be on tape so that teams are aware of it when he uses that same action to rope-a-dope them into a big hitter when he needs it.

The more 'one-off' sort of plays you use, the less you can build on top of them. Especially if you're utilizing multiple systems.

O.city 09-23-2022 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16482589)
I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules. Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...

I don't care for the RPO stuff at this point. It just doesn't seem to be what it was a few years back.

DJ's left nut 09-23-2022 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16482613)
I don't care for the RPO stuff at this point. It just doesn't seem to be what it was a few years back.

And at the risk of castigating St. Patrick, I think he does those RPO reads these days with a wink and a nod.

He treats an RPO read like Jimbo these days:

https://i.imgur.com/nqdIwzg.gif

If he sees ANY excuse at all to pull the ball, he's gonna. And sometimes I think he pulls it when he doesn't see an excuse. He's just so aggressive on those RPO reads.

I'd probably get rid of them, especially now that we don't have Hill to really create a problem on those quick slants. They served their purpose but I think it's probably getting you diminishing returns at this point.

O.city 09-23-2022 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16482625)
And at the risk of castigating St. Patrick, I think he does those RPO reads these days with a wink and a nod.

He treats an RPO read like Jimbo these days:

https://i.imgur.com/nqdIwzg.gif

If he sees ANY excuse at all to pull the ball, he's gonna. And sometimes I think he pulls it when he doesn't see an excuse. He's just so aggressive on those RPO reads.

I'd probably get rid of them, especially now that we don't have Hill to really create a problem on those quick slants. They served their purpose but I think it's probably getting you diminishing returns at this point.

He never "gives" on them, box count be damned.

-King- 09-23-2022 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481502)
Dan Campbell managed to teach it in an off-season and he's dumb as a shoe.

LMAO

Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.

louie aguiar 09-23-2022 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 16482734)
LMAO

Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.

He’ll bite your kneecap off for saying that.

Buehler445 09-23-2022 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -King- (Post 16482734)
LMAO

Man I hate that the lions are looking ok right now. I irrationally hate Dan Campbell.

I LOVE Dan Campbell.





In Detroit

I’d be so pissed if he was Chiefs Coach. But the entertainment value alone is worth him keeping his job.

ROFL

the steam 09-23-2022 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Molitoth (Post 16481550)
I get Mahomes is our QB and you want it in his hands every play... but Andy has shown that it really doesn't matter what scheme we use, and how successful we are with it... he won't stick with it.

I remember Andy blowing a game by refusing to run the ball back in his Philly days. John Madden was kinda chuckling about it "It's so hard for Andy to call a lot of runs, even when it's called for, just not in his DNA."

DJ's left nut 09-23-2022 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16482653)
He never "gives" on them, box count be damned.

I think he just engages in a little creative accounting.

"Well you see, I realize that the safety was 20 yards off the LOS but he could have been on a run blitz so I counted him as inside the box. And the corner on the left side had his foot near the hash marks and that's really just 3 good strides away from being near the LB so I counted a 9th in there as well.

I mean it looks like a Nickel formation but really, that was a 9 man box..."

IowaHawkeyeChief 09-23-2022 11:04 AM

I think we will see more gap scheme as a way to counter the Tite Front defenses that our being used to defend Spread. Down block with our interior 3 and kick the shit out of them... Hopefully we can mix some of those in out of spread formation, especially with our recent futility on short downs.

Raiderhater 09-23-2022 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irafreak (Post 16481246)
I don't know. Maybe it compliments the passing game to help set up his screen game? Perhaps it forces the defense to read the play longer...I'm just spitballing here to keep the discussion rolling cause it's an interesting question.

What screen game?

Dunerdr 09-23-2022 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buehler445 (Post 16482770)
I LOVE Dan Campbell.





In Detroit

I’d be so pissed if he was Chiefs Coach. But the entertainment value alone is worth him keeping his job.

ROFL

He's the perfect not my team but ill root for them as under dogs coach.

Tribal Warfare 09-23-2022 01:20 PM

It also deals with blocking techniques of the Mike Shanahan zones which involved cutblocking and said blockers aiming for the knees instead of squaring up and drive the defenders down cleanly. We saw this shit up close and live with the late 90's Broncos.

DJ's left nut 09-23-2022 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dunerdr (Post 16483015)
He's the perfect not my team but ill root for them as under dogs coach.

I wish he'd have been hired by someone in the AFC East. Just to beat on the Bills and Patriots.

Or the AFC North just for the entertainment value of having 4 teams that are just out there mauling the piss out of each other like it's 1965. We can always hope Cincy continues to scuffle, right? Oh lord, please let him go to Cleveland with Nick Chubb and Myles Garrett.

I just feel like his ability to be miserable to play against is wasted in that pisswater conference.

Coogs 09-23-2022 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481727)
I think Tim Grunhardt is a ****ing idiot and I can't stand him. But he once said something EXTREMELY insightful: The most valuable commodity in the NFL is time.

You only get so much practice time. There just aren't enough hours for that sort of radical shift in approach, IMO. You don't have the practice time for 2 completely different installs.

But I don't see how that would interfere with a shift from a zone scheme to a gap scheme over the course of an off-season.

But like you said - guy didn't ask me. I just don't have a good answer for it - Andy is a DAMN smart guy and obviously knows more about football than idea. Which makes it all the stranger that this appears as self-evident to me as it does.

If I think it's this obvious and yet Andy Reid isn't doing it, it must be because I'm reeruned because I know he isn't.

But try as I might, I can't figure it out.

He's my favorite guy to listen to when it comes to the Chiefs. :shrug:

Demonpenz 09-23-2022 04:50 PM

IDK but our short yard situation sucks

Aspengc8 09-23-2022 06:44 PM

They run a fairly balanced mix of inside/outside zone, depending on the looks and alignment the defense is throwing at them. the RPO system they run utilizes the same gap mechanics.

Buehler445 09-23-2022 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16483101)
I wish he'd have been hired by someone in the AFC East. Just to beat on the Bills and Patriots.

Or the AFC North just for the entertainment value of having 4 teams that are just out there mauling the piss out of each other like it's 1965. We can always hope Cincy continues to scuffle, right? Oh lord, please let him go to Cleveland with Nick Chubb and Myles Garrett.

I just feel like his ability to be miserable to play against is wasted in that pisswater conference.

Right? At least come the the AFC so teams can’t just sell out of the pass for 17 games because they might play one against us.

But if he happens to beat Rodgers, that doesn’t hurt.

crayzkirk 09-24-2022 06:34 AM

I don't know the names of all of the schemes that the Chiefs play in the run game however it seems, to me, that when a yard or two is needed, the Chiefs struggle to just line up and get it done. Some play that takes a long time develop occurs and the Chiefs lose yardage and have to punt.

Everything worked against the Cardinals and the Chargers appeared to know what was coming at them. Is it the personnel, the coaching or a combination of both?

scho63 09-24-2022 03:55 PM

Well at least we are not running the Twilight Zone.

Hammock Parties 09-24-2022 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crayzkirk (Post 16483761)
I don't know the names of all of the schemes that the Chiefs play in the run game however it seems, to me, that when a yard or two is needed, the Chiefs struggle to just line up and get it done.

recency bias

michael burton was undefeated converting short yardage

fans still remember a couple years ago, before trey and creed, when we couldn't run power for shit

Chiefshrink 09-24-2022 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother (Post 16481732)
Clyde has over 7 YPC...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pasta Little Brother (Post 16481772)
The team is averaging 5 YPC as a whole so not sure what there is to cry about other than the occasional Andy special run play that blows up from time to timem

What don't you understand about DJ's comment below ??? I as well, really thought losing Hill might be a blessing in disguise to make defenses even more frustrated in 'pick your poison'. But it hasn't happened yet and why Schuster and Scantling are quiet to this point. BUT it is still early and chemistry is still being built SOOOO I will be patient for now. However, IF by 2/3rds of the way through the season these guys are still quiet and our run game rarely runs interior and is mediocre once again, I assure you we will NOT beat Buffalo. Great point DJ!!


Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16481177)
But man - I will never understand why we haven't made teams 'pick your poison' more.


DJ's left nut 09-26-2022 08:51 AM

I just have nothing to add to this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some added context to this:<br>When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB&#39;s shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there&#39;s nothing he can do. He couldn&#39;t see the lane until it was too late <a href="https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW">https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW</a> <a href="https://t.co/bDCFKpl76N">pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N</a></p>&mdash; Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) <a href="https://twitter.com/InHarmsWay19/status/1574406472712310786?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.

Buehler445 09-26-2022 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16490077)
I just have nothing to add to this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some added context to this:<br>When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB&#39;s shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there&#39;s nothing he can do. He couldn&#39;t see the lane until it was too late <a href="https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW">https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW</a> <a href="https://t.co/bDCFKpl76N">pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N</a></p>&mdash; Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) <a href="https://twitter.com/InHarmsWay19/status/1574406472712310786?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.

Yep. That's a tough one. IMO, may as well see what Pacheco has on some drives.

I was hoping Ealy would be our "quick guy in small spaces" guy, but obviously that isn't the case. Hell, I might IR McKinnon or CEH for a bit and see if I can find anything on the street.

boilertiger 09-26-2022 12:00 PM

I don't understand why we are so married to it. I wish Andy would explain it to us but we'll never get it out of him.

emaw1979 10-01-2022 03:07 AM

Many people, including myself, have been begging the Chiefs to run a power or gap scheme since last year.

I'm not going to claim I'm smarter than Reid or EB but I feel the Gap/Power scheme fits this line, running back room and offense much better than this outside zone scheme. It would also speed up the defense requiring them to commit earlier.

OBJ, Thuney, Creed all come from and played at a very high level with a gap/power scheme. Trey Smith has the body, strength and mind to dominate as well.

JPH83 10-01-2022 04:37 AM

I don't know who's to blame but the running game is absolutely not this group of coaches finest hour. By this point they really should have worked out the players they have, what they can and can't do, and what defences are anticipating, and somewhat work around that. None of that seems to be happening.

Hammock Parties 10-03-2022 01:54 PM

pacheco will house this

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">the Falcons were shredding the Browns on the ground with mostly zone run concepts.<br><br>but check out this change-up they used. The formation and initial sell seems like a Lead Outside Zone run concept, but the Falcons pull Center Drew Dalman for a Windback run play and a big gain. <a href="https://t.co/uNxLEi03CT">pic.twitter.com/uNxLEi03CT</a></p>&mdash; Nate Tice (@Nate_Tice) <a href="https://twitter.com/Nate_Tice/status/1577023327448678400?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

DJ's left nut 10-03-2022 01:57 PM

Definitely noticed more gap looks this week. And honestly, I think the willingness to utilize them made the zone stuff more effective.

Pitt Gorilla 10-03-2022 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPH83 (Post 16498486)
I don't know who's to blame but the running game is absolutely not this group of coaches finest hour. By this point they really should have worked out the players they have, what they can and can't do, and what defences are anticipating, and somewhat work around that. None of that seems to be happening.

They did pretty well against what WAS a top-10 rushing defense.

JPH83 10-03-2022 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt Gorilla (Post 16505839)
They did pretty well against what WAS a top-10 rushing defense.

Yep, night and day from the Colts game. I dunno, better play calling, better execution, everything was just...good

Sorter 10-24-2022 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by O.city (Post 16482526)
You son of a bitch, how are you?

Anyway, when you say "cutback" rules do you mean cutblock?

Doing pretty well, just more busy than I'd like to be.

And yes, I did mean to use cutblock. Tequila affects my brain more than whisky it seems.

Sorter 10-24-2022 08:23 PM

[QUOTE=DJ's left nut;16482589]I sent out the Sorter signal; he saw I started a thread and thought "Holy crap, I'll bet this is AWESOME..."

Yeah, I presumed he meant the cut-block rules.
Quote:

Though in some ways it seems like those rules should actually make it easier to run an outside zone given that DBs cant submarine those pulling guards anymore.
Good in theory but most DBs aren't willing to risk taking on blocks like that currently.

Quote:

I hadn't considered the RPO element of it and yeah, that makes a ton of sense. You want your lineman going slow/sideways in an RPO so you don't end up with an ineligible man downfield penalty if the QB elects to pull the ball.

I wonder if that's not the most obvious explanation. Andy didn't use to favor the OZ like he does but that was before the rise of the RPO - so it seems pretty likely that the run design is more likely to follow the pass design than anything. And since you can't really go out there and run two different styles (because again - reps and time are limited), he's just elected to steer into the skid and find a way to get better at OZ runs rather than feature a gap system and try to maul his way between the tackles.

Still seems like an opportunity missed (especially since I'm not a fan of the RPOs at this point either)...
Regarding your last large paragraph, Andy has always favored ZB because of the big payoffs it used to yield via cutback + the advantages of boot action for PA.

Then you have the cross screen game that they were wicked with in Philly because of people overflowing to the zone run side.

DJ's left nut 10-24-2022 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorter (Post 16552490)
Regarding your last large paragraph, Andy has always favored ZB because of the big payoffs it used to yield via cutback + the advantages of boot action for PA.

Then you have the cross screen game that they were wicked with in Philly because of people overflowing to the zone run side.

But when we don't have RBs that can see/make a cutback...

Sorter 10-24-2022 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16490077)
I just have nothing to add to this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some added context to this:<br>When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB&#39;s shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there&#39;s nothing he can do. He couldn&#39;t see the lane until it was too late <a href="https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW">https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW</a> <a href="https://t.co/bDCFKpl76N">pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N</a></p>&mdash; Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) <a href="https://twitter.com/InHarmsWay19/status/1574406472712310786?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.



Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ's left nut (Post 16490077)
I just have nothing to add to this:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some added context to this:<br>When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB&#39;s shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there&#39;s nothing he can do. He couldn&#39;t see the lane until it was too late <a href="https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW">https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW</a> <a href="https://t.co/bDCFKpl76N">pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N</a></p>&mdash; Daniel Harms�� (@InHarmsWay19) <a href="https://twitter.com/InHarmsWay19/status/1574406472712310786?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

This is not a team that's going to excel by continuing with the RPO/OZ concepts. They need to build a new plane while they're flying it here. This just isn't working.

Couple things from this clip:

Chiefs out in 2x2 alignment with 3x1 personnel (TE weak).
Colts in 4 man front with nickel personnel (NB field side), mike walks out a bit to align/wall off #2(Kelce) while still having responsibility for the back. the Boundary EMOLS is in a 9 tech, so you can remove him from people you have to worry about blocking unless he's a freak or your A) read for the RB is ****ed B)Your RB sucks


How the numbers match up:

What this shows is basically our 5 on 3 DL with 1 LB and 1 NCB to deal with (that's why the motion across formation matters, it places a stress on the Mike to honor Kelce as a receiver)
In theory, this is a win. You could even have the #2 field side crack the NB and set up a 1 on 1 with the field side safety or the corner (if everyone is blocked).

What needs to happen from the defensive alignment shown is this(starting from left to right):

-LT needs to help LG on 3 tech then work way up to mike (old school would have been LT cutting the 3tech and LG works up to mike)
-LG blocks 3 tech (see previous sentence for how it used to happen)
-C (uncovered) You get varying thoughts on this but most teach if he's uncovered you help briefly playside before climbing to the second level player (Will in this case)
-RG (HERE'S WHERE THINGS GET SHITTY)
The RG is the cog here. He dictates whether the runner is going to bounce or cut inside. He is supposed to move the 1 tech 3 yards horizontally for the runner to have an ideal view. Doesn't happen every time obviously but thats the goal. What the playside guard on OZ can not do is get ****ing raped.
-RT has the EMLOS and is supposed to carry him enough so the runner has a clear decision of bouncing or cutting.
-#2 WR field side (should crack on the NB or EMLOS although rules have affected this)



So, now lets re post the video DJ linked and watch.


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Some added context to this:<br>When the Chiefs run OZ/RPO concept from shotgun the RB&#39;s shoulders turn to the sideline, CEH has never been a start-and-stop player and by the time he can get to the backside, there&#39;s nothing he can do. He couldn&#39;t see the lane until it was too late <a href="https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW">https://t.co/aDAkTkmFFW</a> <a href="https://t.co/bDCFKpl76N">pic.twitter.com/bDCFKpl76N</a></p>&mdash; Daniel Harms🏈 (@InHarmsWay19) <a href="https://twitter.com/InHarmsWay19/status/1574406472712310786?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Sorter 10-24-2022 09:05 PM

Well, there it is.

C makes a lunging attempt to help with the 1 tech as the RG says "Get ****ed, I'm out of here". (which to be fair, that's how most OZ plays pan out). RT doesn't get out in front and the combination of those two almost kills any chance there is of positive yardage.

In an attempt to not seem like a ****ing curmudgeon, the LG and #2 field side receiver do their jobs, demonstrating that at least some folks on this team think running the ball is important.

Now, Clyde Frog sees his read is ****ed from the absence of horizontal flow on the 1 tech.


What does he do, I wonder? He can:

A) Bounce which is ****ed because the the RT didn't get any flow field side
B) Cut inside immediately because he's a professional and a decisive runner that knows what to do when stuff doesn't go to plan
C) Panic and meltdown like a 3 year old who was informed Pumpkin Patches are closed in January.

I know people are going to give the RG shit for not blocking whoever the ****ing colts player is that comes through but if this play flows correctly, he's blocked. He's not slicing playside to make that tackle (especially in nickel).

Sorter 10-24-2022 09:11 PM

Here's the sad thing.


****ing nobody is running the ball well (and that's how the league has intentionally/unintentionally designed it).

You may get a couple good games here and there from players (and you'll probably get better per game rushing results in the playoffs because players are overselling the stretch) but you're not going to see a **** ton of rushing yards this year. Or next year.


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