Have NFL defenses fully adjusted to the RPO?
 

Elements of this discussion are popping up in other threads, so let's discuss it in its own thread?

My opinion :

NFL defenses have caught up with the RPO.

Time for Patrick to really hone his pre-snap reads and start actually going through progressions based on those reads as opposed to reading the safety to determine man or zone and then doing everything else based on what the defense presents once the ball is snapped.

They know what we're doing and have adjusted.

Will Reid toss Bieniemy and go back to his WCO roots and press Mahomes to be even greater?

Or are we looking at another McCarthy-Rogers situation?

I hate the RPO.. Takes too long to develop and we can’t run for shit when we do it. Just let Patrick do his thing and run normal run plays..

**** outside zone.

Sorry wrong thread.

Part of Patrick's "thing" is the RPO, unfortunately.

RPO doesn't work without the run.

Wish we had Jamaal Charles.

I didn't watch him at Texas Tech. Did they use the RPO?

Plus, this Oline is waaaay more suited to short/intermediate routes and power running, like ISO/Power O, stuff like that.

Not to mention going pro-set/I formation with 22 and 12 personnel would get Hardman off the ****ing field...

AND defenses are so keyed on stopping the deep pass off the RPO, they're susceptible to being gashed by a power running game...and cover 2/cover 3 have always been susceptible to giving up chunks to the TE on seam and wheel routes (Kelce and Fortson in the 12 group!?)

If Andy Reid is just letting Eric Bieniemy "run" this offense, it shows. It's lazy and predictable and they've been running all the same shit they lost the Super Bowl with, and that shows, too.

"RPO. Oh. Defense is keyed pass...here's a delayed handoff out of the shotgun 7 yards behind a run blocking line thinking they're blocking a pass that got changed to a run. Handing the ball to a MEH rb who gets exactly 1 yard on 2nd down.

"Innovative."

Defenses are certainly catching up to the RPO and college style spread offense. Nothing new, these things always ebb & flow back and forth.

As someone said earlier, the RPO is a heck of a lot more effective, when you present a decent running game.

Nah, this is the right thread for that, too.

The line and CEH/MEH are better suited for ISO and power running.

**** outside zone, indeed.

Why hasn't pur amazing coaching staff with our offensive genius head coach who is an innovator adjusted to this obviousness yet?

We had over 100 yards rushing in the first half of the AFC Championship Game with a 5ypc/avg and an 18 point lead.

The Bengals were constantly dropping 7 AND 8 DEEP in the pre-snap defense formation, 3 man fronts, DARING Reid and Bieniemy to run the ball...

And they don't.

For whatever reason.

Now...understanding that we will never, ever present a "decent" running game without even a fleeting commitment to running the ball with a 3 score lead and 3 man defensive front...is your point that Reid will never present a "decent running game" and therefore, should probably quit pretending that RPO is going to go back to 2018 and put 50 TDs on the board via the air again?

Because it's not happening.

If Reid truly is letting Bienemy run the show, that’s depressing and aggravating. I’d be really pissed if they’re contractually obligated to let that clown call plays.

He comes off well in interviews but he’s clearly a stubborn douche who does nothing to improve the team and may be holding them back.

This is the one big problem with the RPO. It really puts stress on the line.

And if defenses know you WON'T commit to the run, they can just lay back and try to make the Chiefs be the cohesive, efficient offense that they're obviously not capable of being right now.

The reason I say that they're "obviously not capable" of doing that is because if they were capable of doing that, you'd think they would.

Whether it be Patrick being stuck on the RPO or the coaching staff getting lazy and complacent, something has to give.

It's all rigged, right? What the difference?

Hate RPO. Are the only SB winner to use it? I think so.

I am really starting to hate EB, he just doesn't have it. The offense is stale, teams know what we're going to do. Get rid of him and bring in a young fresh mind to throw some wrinkles into the team.

So much this.

Unfortunately this thread is a moot point, at least as far as hoping they'll change, because I think it's pretty clear by now that Reid/Bienemy are incredibly stubborn and have no interest in trying to change. You'd think there would be a clear plan and connection between the team building strategy and their offensive strategy (i.e. building a powerful run blocking OL with clear pass blocking deficiencies, maybe switch to a power run game and some more traditional offensive concepts) but that doesn't appear to be the case. They're going to keep doing what they're doing because that's what they do, for better or worse. It certainly works a lot of the time, but we have over a season of evidence now that the offense hasn't quite been the same for the most part since 2020 and they seemingly refuse to adapt.

It's BORING, you dumb mother****er.

If it's ENTERTAINMENT (watch the Amazon halftime yesterday, they say about Tua's injury "these guys put their bodies on the line to entertain us.")

So ****ing ENTERTAIN ME.

This offense USED to be EXCITING two years ago, you were on the EDGE OF YOUR SEAT wondering "what will they spin next?"

Now?

"Hope it's not a sack or a turnover. Oh...RPO. run out of the shotgun loses a yard. Again."

YAWN
*wet fart*

No one wants to come over and watch the team lose to the Colts because CJ called Matt Ryan a dumb cracker statue.

It's.
Not.
Fun.
To.
Watch.

How come that EXTREMELY SIMPLE concept is so hard for YOU to understand?

Did you eat lead paint chips when you were a kid?

You from Flint MI?

"He we are now, entertain us..."

This is the point I was trying to make.

Thank you.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this.

I would settle for Kareem Hunt

The Eagles did it

It has absolutely become stale and predictable, just like the Wildcat and the Pistol and all the other gimmick offenses that have come and gone like farts in the wind. This one lasted a little longer and was quite effective for a good stretch, but it simply is not fooling anyone anymore. It also doesn't help that we have a cabinet full of average to below average JAG running backs that no defense remotely fears. That's probably the biggest issue overall.

Andy has evolved many times in the past, so I'm not sure what's stopping him this time. I truly hope it's not complacency, and I have no reason to believe Reid is ready to phone it in based on all we know about him. If it's because EB has too much control over what we're doing, then that shit needs to be put to a stop immediately and I don't give a damn if it pisses EB off. Put the guy up in the booth with a fake headset and let him ride out his contract.

The most concerning point of view is if they truly think this is the offense Patrick needs to run to be most effective, which I have to trust they aren't foolish enough to believe. It really is a mystery at this point, my only guess is Reid is giving EB and this scheme one more year and then will revamp everything this offseason since this year was kind of viewed as a "retooling" year anyway.

I feel like this is happening. Colts game looked like Andy believed the team talent would make up for bad calls and it was near a guaranteed win so he let EB call the game. Would also help tie in with how Mahomes went after EB at half.

The RPO gives Mahomes a TON of control. In fact, it's probably a big reason we don't run the ball as often.

Why does KC need RPO to give Mahomes a ton of control and take advantage of his skills?

Why can't he just line up, survey the field, and audible?

I've always been puzzled why KC didn't use more no huddle. They seemed good at it.

Maybe my memory is off, but didn't KC use a hell of a lot more pre-snap motion when Smith was here? Would love to get back to that for one thing.

One of the talking heads (I think maybe Chris Simms) said that the Chiefs aren't using motion effectively. It's basically just a way for them to determine man vs. zone and they're just kind of doing it robotically.

I'm not really saying it's about control, though. Sure, he can decide to pass or run, but if the defense is in position to stop whatever passing play is in motion, it doesn't really matter. That's the issue.

On top of that, the line is blocking for a run play and Pat tends to hold the ball a little longer than he should on those reads which is leading to him getting pulverized way too often.

I don't know, it seems to be failing more often than succeeding these days which means it's time for something new.

That's the thing about the RPO. It's a call AFTER the snap. The defense is never in a position to fully stop the RPO, that's the whole point of having post-snap option reads. The problem is that the reads have to be RIGHT. You can't hand off the ball right into penetration and you shouldn't pull it back and try to throw it when there's 8 guys in coverage.

That's why I keep saying that some of the blame has to be on Mahomes. They give him a ton of leeway with the RPO and he doesn't always execute it correctly. In fact, when we're struggling or behind and he starts pressing, he executes it poorly many times.

So then it begs the question, are defenses getting a tell from Mahomes that lets them know what he doing? Obviously we know he's going to lean pass because he wants to throw the ball, but what have they figured out about him? How are they disguising things so well that he can't figure them out? Or is it a simple fact they're going to play the pass no matter what because they know we can't/won't run the ball?

Seems to me week one we committed to running the ball early and it worked like a charm. If it's the simple fact that Mahomes won't run it when he should, that's worrisome for sure.

It's the one in bold, IMO.

Why don't the refs ever call illegal man down field on RPO's?

They do. We've had a couple against us, IIRC.

Defenses are way ahead of offenses in the NFL right now. Moreso than is normal for this early in a season.

This is why I said we shouldn't be disappointed if the offense only scores 24 in a given game. That is not cause for concern. It's just the way it's going to be in a post-Tyreek world.

The 2018 offense is never coming back so move forward.

Andy and Veach realized this earlier than most.

This RPO lived near you?

We need to keep in mind that 80% of the Wr’s are new I’ve heard it said it takes a year and a half to fully learn Andy’s system. Plus getting in sync with Pat

I love how rando poster on CP knows how Mahomes is running the offense and how to fix it LMAO

Smarter than Andy Reid!

Nobody KNOWS how Mahomes is running the offense, we can only see what we see. Nobody here other than rabble thinks they're smarter than Reid, either.

You're reading something here that hasn't been said. It's a ****ing football discussion board. We're discussing it.

I mean this certainly reads like someone thinks they know.

And hey, I'm discussing football as well bud, this is hilarious.

My opinion they need to simply open up the offense and go back to what they were doing before last season and stop trying to dink and dunk the ball down the field. My $.02.

They know the difference between an audible and the RPO. Yeah, that post pretty much defines what the RPO is. So unless YOU don't know what it is, you haven't said anything damning at all.

Certainly not the "gotcha" you think it is.

They are dropping LB’s and playing cover 2 against guys like Mahomes and Allen. They just don’t care about giving up shorter chunk yards on the ground.

The biggest reason why the Patriots were a dynasty is bc Bill constantly had them evolve. When they won with the 3-4 defense early in the dynasty, teams started copying and drafting those prospects so Bill switched to a 4-3 and changed the defense letting 4-3 DE’s fall to him in the draft.

They were a strong passing team like us when Randy Moss was there. After Randy left Bill utilized the run game and also his TE’s when teams prepared for him to go pass heavy.

That’s why they were so good. And now we really need to focus on getting the running game going for this particular offense. No more running the offense as if we have 2018’s personnel.

Knowing the difference between an RPO and an audible has nothing to do with knowing how Mahomes is going through his reads and making the comment his reads have nothing to do with what his pre-snap defensive read is.

One of the reasons they use motion is specifically to get a pre snap read on the defense.

On that topic anyway, have you not heard Mahomes yell "kill kill kill" or yell "we good we good" pre snap?

WTF do you think he is doing there?

With their current personnel and the way defenses are playing them, I'm not sure they can go back to what they were doing before. The Colts played a ton of cover 3 and 4, not cover 2. In essence, they were doubling down on keeping everything in front of them.

FWIW, they should try to do something wholly new, IMO. Stop trying to replicate what they did in the past. Tyreek isn't here. OBJ and Wylie aren't good enough to hold up. And we have no running game to speak of. It's time to evolve.

Then that sucks. Brady did it in one year and so did Stafford. What it really means it's an offense that relies on tricking the defense more than a players talent level to beat his man. So guys need time to learn where to go and not just be better route runners.

True, but probably should have thought about that before the season when they had time to put more large scale changes in place. Instead they seem to have been complacent and largely stayed with almost the exact same offense despite not having Hill, even after seeing the same offense struggle even with Hill.

That's not what it means at all.

Except that they've run a shit ton more 21 and 22 personel than they have in the past.

Two and three TE sets and multiple backs is this season's "new wrinkle".

The passing concepts are the same, but why would THAT change?

Well most of the wide receivers are gone next year requiring another complete rebuild of the group, so we're going to go through the same song and dance yet again.

If an offense is so complicated that it takes forever for players to learn it and it still isn't as effective as it once was, maybe it's time to get with the times and rely more on allowing young players with talent to use said talent to get open rather than always trying to scheme everyone open.

Because the talent level has changed, and defenses have caught up with what KC is doing. The offense is stale. They were cutting edge 2-3 years ago, now they're not.

You're not going to change your concepts every year. Nobody does that. You're not going to have your QB learn a whole new system. That's silly.

****ing run CEH

This comment applies to another part of this site as well. Everyone thinks they know exactly what is going on but it is all just guessing.

I mean, if this is accurate, at what point does it become a "failed experiment."

I used to do that when I played Madden as a teenager.

It's because the RPO doesn't need Mahomes to read the defenses, and the coaches can just, kinda half-ass it, really TBH.

RPO is based off ONE pre-snap read - is it man or zone? Where is the safety? Those are literally the only pre-snap reads, everything else pre-snap is changing protections. So, Mahomes makes ALL his real decisions based off what the defense does and responds to that, AFTER the ball is snapped. Same with the receivers; they go off a route tree which is, again, reactionary and based off what the defense presents.

It runs in diametrical opposition to what Andy's background is, which is WCO, go an take that shit 5 yards at a time/death by 1000 paper cuts/control the clock and the game/high percentage passes that string 1st downs together and burn the ****ing clock out.

Watch those slants the 49ers ran, or we ran when Montana was here - snap from center, 3 step drop, ball out when the plant foot hits end of the drop like clockwork. Everytime. And it was impossible to defend when the timing was down cold. Montana and Rice and then later Young and Rice ran it to stone cold perfection, because you knew it was coming but there was nothing you could do about it, except hope to maybe jam Rice off the line (good luck). I realize we don't have Jerry Rice...

The reason the ball came out so quick was Montana would read the defense pre-snap and send people in motion TO GET THE MATCHUPS he wanted. To ATTACK the defense.

The RPO seems stuck because IT IS, the glitch is in the time it takes to survey and react to the defense post-snap.

Promise. That's why defenses are like "just stand back and don't let them beat you deep. If they don't uncork a big one, they might not score."

they don't ATTACK defenses with any real specific plan other than "hopefully Patrick will make something happen". And it really is starting to show.

Andy has always had this problem. We saw it in the SB loss.

He’s playing the way he wants. Changes be damned. Your tackles are getting whipped and you won’t go into different mode.

Screens, running the ball more, play action. Nope just lining up in 11 personnel and saying “**** it” most of the time.

Interestingly, looking at this: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...g_advanced.htm, they only have Mahomes at 9 RPO snaps on the season. I haven't paid close enough attention to know if this is accurate, but afaik, they're generally considered a good resource for NFL stats.

I wouldn't go that far, I've never coached and never played beyond high school.

That's why I'm so perplexed.

If it's obvious to US...

That’s the part that puzzles me why turn over the position again next year? I hope that we make a big acquisition next year for the long term whether it be through the draft or free agency.

Listen, Eric Bieniemy.

It hasn't worked for awhile. Sucks you didn't get hired (again), but the NFL has evolved, bud. Besides...have you seen your offensive line? Them tackles really are offensive...

Changing protection, mostly.

Again. RPO is based off ONE pre-snap read - where is the safety? Defense man or zone?

All other decisions - by the QB AND the WRs - are made post-snap.

It's also why there's so much confusion. I think Patrick has not there has not been one play yet on offense where someone HADN'T screwed up something...

I don’t think we can just throw EB under the bus he has been working with only 2 offensive playmakers and kept us in the top few in the league on offense

I don't know about that, but it almost seems exclusively RPO between the 20s. It feels to me as if he only goes under center in the red zone...of course, I have PTSD, so...

enter Mecole Hardman, the reason why Mahomes ended the game with an INT last week in crunch time due to Hardman's inability to properly run ****ing routes in year 4 of the system.

Is that on Hardman for sucking so hard, man (sorry, couldn't resist) or on the complacent coaching staff who keeps trotting him out there unprepared?

Huh?

The throw was to Smith-Schuster....

Well, I've seen enough Mecole Hardman to last a ****ing lifetime. Don't know if he's actually any better than Chris Conley. Seem to be the same ****ing person, except one of them is faster at ****ing things up.

hardman ran his route about 2 yards too short.

If he runs his route correctly, it would've set like a legal pick almost that would've cleared those defenders out of the zone JuJu was going to.

Instead, Mecole doesn't sell his route, his defender peels off and floats to where JuJu was and the result was an interception.

Sir.

Go rewatch the play and get back at me.

You didn’t see Juju motioning to Hardman after the play that he did something wrong? Just because it was to Juju doesn’t mean Hardman’s route didn’t impact the play.

Yes, i'm familiar with the video that was posted days ago that claimed Hardman didn't run a pick route correctly. (Which has nothing to do with selling a route btw).

Despite that, JJSS should've flattened his route rather than turning it upfield.

That's the ACTUAL reason it was intercepted.

Yes, Hardman could've done a better job running into a defender 15ish yards upfield (I guess).

But that play was on JJSS.

He needed to sell it AND run it farther.

The reason the ****ing defender peeled off Hardman and went to JuJu is because the defender didn't ****ing care about Hardman.

That much is obvious from watching the replay.

Point is, they're all pressing because the system doesn't work anymore.

Find something they can do with confidence. And build on that.

I don't have to be a ****ing football coach to understand that.

Unless you're saying Hardman is great and is actually exactly what the coaching staff wants and THAT'S why they keep trotting him out there?

Is that it?

Sorry i just....sigh.

You said we should run more screens. Which is counter-intuitive to the coverages the Chiefs are getting.

You said we should run more crossers. Crossers are and have always been the bread and butter of this offense. They run a shit ton of crossing patterns.

You said they run too many RPO's....yet data suggests they're barely running RPO's at all this season.

You said it's the same ol' offense when in fact they've been using more 21 and 22 personel than they have at any point in Mahomes' career.


I just don't think ya'll got a feel for them the way you think you do.

I specifically said more slants and then do the slant-and-go/sluggo concepts when defenders play the inside of the slant.

But to do it from under the center with pre-snap reads and attacking the weakest part of a defense woud be cool?

That would be ****ing CRAZY.

I think we all just want the team to do well. And something isn't right.

Most teams are successful because of effort and cohesion.

I don't think the coaching staff is cohesive, and it's resulting in lackluster effort already in week 3.

Relying solely on Mahomes' talent isn't a great formula for sustainable success. Relying on it for team cohesion in an attempt to sustain effort is foolhardy.

Ya'll realize the Chiefs receivers are expected to adjust on the fly? Kelce talks about this as have other receivers in the past.

If the defense gives a look, all the receivers have to be on the same page. A receiver has to adjust his route accordingly, as do the others in order to create proper spacing between each other.

There's a shit ton of fluidity built into this offense and the players have to execute it. Hence the reason they say it takes a season or two to get GOOD at it.

Not to LEARN it. But actually execute it consistently as a group.

Right, so why not do something that doesn't take 3 ****ing years to learn how to adapt to when there is such roster turnover in today's NFL?

Adapt.

I hate to use Brady as an example of ANYTHING, so look at the Eagles with Doug Pedersen or The Rams of last year?

They didn't need 3 years in the same system to be able to read each other's minds...

Plus, our WR corps is turning over again next year most likely.

Will it take 3 years from when the new guys get their playbooks next year?

I thought the end game was to win a SB every year?

Where do you want us to run him to?

I don’t know that those stats are right. They ran RPO on 5 plays in their first 3 drives on Sunday.

:thumb: