2023 Cap Discussion
 

If we were to absolutely max out all restructures, we would have almost $119M in cap space according to Over The Cap.

Effective Cap Space: $8,449,166

Simple Restructure: $67,070,657
Possible Cap Space: $75,519,823

Maximum Restructure: $110,459,052
Possible Cap Space: $118,908,218

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">According to <a href="https://twitter.com/Jason_OTC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Jason_OTC</a>, the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> could have $118,908,218 in cap space in 2023, with maximum restructures.<br><br>That would be the fourth-most cap space if every team maximized their restructures. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/InVeachWeTrust?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#InVeachWeTrust</a> <a href="https://t.co/0ezsiCNhFc">pic.twitter.com/0ezsiCNhFc</a></p>&mdash; Jacob Milham (@JMilTheHam) <a href="https://twitter.com/JMilTheHam/status/1587993472627359745?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 3, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Fix tackle situation. Sign best edge rusher available to pair with Jones. Profit.

I feel like if 'damn the torpedoes' was the approach they intended to take, we wouldn't have traded Hill.

The franchise has, wisely, taken a measured approach in balancing the now w/ the future.

LMAO

LMAO Legit mind****ed me for a bit what he was trying to say.

Some of my favorite things on here is when there's a wild typo, to google search it, and out of the entire world wide web, have it only be on Chiefsplanet and its a lexicon reference.

I wish it was a better FA class. But if nothing else it will help us retain everybody we want to.

The bills on the other hand are sitting at 3.6m over the cap next year, and only 40m projected in 2024

Seems like a lot until you look at our list of contracts coming up in the next 2-3 years besides Jones and Brown

All together these guys are costing us like $9 million or less in cap space this season.

Sneed
Williams
Watson
Johnson
Creed
Bolton
Smith
Gay
Moore
Toney
Pacheco

It will be like this until Mahomes retires. We think we have money but we have too many good players like JuJu that we will have to let walk after their 1 year deals are up.

In Veach we trust....

Honestly rather just stay pat for another year as far as major restructures go, no pun intended, and maximize our flexibility in the future. Most teams pushed all their chips in this season in a mad dash to catch up to us, and it's pretty clear by now that we're STILL at the top of the AFC with an off season where even most here expected we'd take a step backward in the short term for a chance to leap forward in the future.

Pay Juju his money
Pay Chris Jones his money
Figure out wtf to do with LT situation

Pay for a pass rusher

Profit

you just committed the Chiefs to at least $200 million and you still need to pay guys like Creed, Bolton, Sneed, Trey etc

We can’t just keep putting off the bill on every player. Mahomes will still be here way past these contracts. We have to live within our means.

He is going to want to be the top paid center in the game. And deservedly so.

I'd keep Juju around if he's willing to stay cheap but he'll probably be looking for work elsewhere if he wants market value.

JuJu is gonna want to cash in on the ridiculous WR market while he can. It’s probably the biggest reason why he and his agent took a one year ‘prove it’ deal with the Chiefs. Maximize your skill set in an elite offense in order to cash in BIGTIME.

I have no doubt he would like to stay with the Chiefs, but he’s gonna want to be paid BIGTIME.

The Chiefs should let him walk and find another one year contract candidate to pair with MVS, Moore and Toney (Hardman is likely gone too). If they’re not paying Reek top of the market contract, they’re not gonna give JuJu $20+ mil. per year.

Nor should they. I like him, but it’s a waste of financial resources. Mahomes doesn’t need elite WR’s (not sure if JuJu is even that) to succeed. This has already been made apparent with Reek leaving.

MVS, Moore, Watson, and Toney would probably be totally fine assuming all reach their potential IF we fix OT and the DL.

You don't have to pay Creed and Smith in '23. You'll probably need to extend them in '24.

You have to extend and pay Sneed, and we should. The rest of the secondary other than Reid are all rookies, so we won't have to choose to pay anyone for three more years. It's brilliant, really.

Clark gone saves $20m, which pays most of Jones' new deal.

We're in really good shape.

Agreed, although I would fill out that WR room with a one year ‘prove it’ guy looking to perform and get paid. Just like they did with JuJu this year.

Guys will want to play here with Mahomes to make bank. Especially with Reek gone now (not taking away targets) and Kelce getting older (despite still being elite).

Solid point here. Because you’ve got that all rookie CB class, that allows you to pay one max CB contract right now (starting next year). Sneed is worth every bit of it. You absolutely extend him and pay him. He’s such a versatile chess piece in Spags defense. Kind of like what HB used to be before he started making ‘business decisions’.

You have to extend Jones out 2-3 more years.

Give Sneed a deal. Out of all of our CBs if they don't extend Snead, then they won't ever extend anyone. He's so versatile.

You offer OBJ a deal that pays around $18 mil/yr and if he doesn't take that, then look elsewhere.


Extend Willie Gay out and try to get him to sign fairly cheap while you can.

Hope that you can get JJSS signed long term.

Find another starter for DE and RT.

Agree on Jones.

OBJ and his agent ain’t signing for $18 mil. per, just not gonna happen. Chiefs should look elsewhere but I have a feeling they’re gonna try and get something done with him for more than most of us are gonna like.

Your also gonna have to choose between Willie Gay and Nick Bolton. The Chiefs won’t pay both $10 mil. + each. I’m going with Bolton if I’m the Chiefs.

JuJu gonna want to get paid. You let him walk and sign another one year ‘prove it’ guy looking to make bank. Mahomes is Mahomes and can make another guy look great and get him a big contract as well the following year. Rinse, repeat.

I'd extend Sneed.

I let OBJ walk, and take the 3rd comp. I snatch Yosh Nijman, RFA, away from Green Bay as they're already paying Bahktiari and won't want to pay TWO LT's. A middle of the pack LT contract should be enough to do that.

I'll extend Gay.

I probably cut MVS (saves $9m) not because I don't like him, but because you could use that money to re-sign JuJu. I feel like you can find a speedster to replace MVS easier in the mid rounds of the draft.

Cut Clark, and put that $20 to extending Jones.

As it presently stands, I don't extend Smith.

I'm assuming that he's been playing hurt, as he doesn't look like the same guy. He was better last game. Let's see if he's 100% after the bye.

Chris jones no matter what will give us huge cap relief. We're either going to cut him (not ideal) or we turn his $23m salary into bonus which saves us a LOT of money. Knowing these are the 2 scenarios I can't imagine the chiefs don't either cut or swim.

Do you think they will even extend Creed? He's gonna get at least $15 mil/yr, because he will be the highest paid center. That's pretty steep for a center. We haven't extended a center since he's been here and have lost 2 really good ones in Hudson and Morse. We let Morse go cuz his head was maybe going to scramble, but I don't think there is anyway they give a ton for a C because we never have problems replacing them.

I also don't extend Smith and just try to get one in the draft. We have no problem finding interior guys and we need to have some guys in rookie deals.

Bolton isn't signing for $10 mil and could easily sign for a top 3-5 ILB contract which will be around $17 mil/yr.

If Gay keeps playing as well as he has been, then you extend him this off season. He'd be coming off his only season of great production and if you offer him an $8-$10 mil/yr contract, then you can probably get him to sign.

I keep both of those guys, because we've went so long with shit at LB.

And I’m betting that’s what they’re planning on.

Seems the Chiefs are going with a “WR by committee” approach which always keeps the cupboard full of options and depth. If JuJu keeps rolling he’ll get $20 million a year easily. No way will KC pay that after trading Hill in a similar situation.

This seems to be working. Always going to be guys wanting to play with Mahomes to cash in. I’ll take rentals all day if that’s all he needs and we can invest resources elsewhere.

I wasn’t suggesting he would, just that both he and Gay will require 10+ mil. per year contracts and that there is no way the Chiefs will pay them both. They just won’t. And if I have to pick one, I’m picking Bolton. Even if it means paying him a bit more per year than Gay would get. Really feel like he will be the anchor of this defense for years to come.

Would love to have both going forward, but I think it’s just not in the cards.

After two seasons of Reiter, I'd pay Creed.

If we can keep churning CB's other than Sneed, we could.

I think you can pay 'em both IF you keep churning and burning at CB.

If the only real money is in Reid and Sneed, you can do it.

You still wanting to add a pass rusher to pair with Jones, though? (after Clark is cut)

Because if you are, that’s gonna cost some money.

Can’t pay Reid, Sneed, Gay and Jones AND add a top tier pass rusher.

Gonna have to sacrifice one of those guys . . . . .

Gonna have to go get a pass rusher somewhere.

And probably pay brown jr

If you think Bolton is getting 17 per you're high.

There are 3 ILB making $17 mil or more a year. There are 2 more off-season a before he becomes a FA and more than likely a couple of guys get $15+ mil/yr contracts. Nick Bolton is already a top 5 ILB and his status is just going to grow.

He had 112 tackles last year.

This year he is on pace for 160 yds, 14 TFL, and 5 sacks.

Bolton and Creed won’t have big cap hits until at least 2025. They’ve got 2 more cheap years on rookie contracts and then slowly escalate. No problem giving them and Sneed long term deals.

I’d give Juju and Jones smaller extensions. Juju the Sammy Watkins/Tyrann Mayheiu style 3 year deal (allows him to cash in on FA again before 30) and I’d add 2 years on Chris Jones deal giving him 3 more years here.

We have plenty of money to do that

The guys making that are Warner and Leonard guys who do everything including cause a bunch of turnovers.

I mean **** Milano is 10 mill.

We’re 7 games into the season. Let’s maybe cool it on the talk that Mahomes doesn’t need elite receivers until we see a full season and playoffs. He may need elite receivers less than some QBs, but it would sure as he’ll be nice to eventually find one.

Don’t understand not paying Juju even if it’s $24 million average.

His first year in 2023 will be cheap, then in 2024 you cut MVS to get $12 million and still have Toney, Skyy and whatever rookie you want to draft.

We saw what not having a presence like Sammy Watkins did to us for years. Don’t let Juju walk

LMAO

You haven't applied this logic to ANYTHING you've been bitching about.

Quick, anyone . . . . . .

Raise your hand on here if you claimed JuJu was an ‘elite’ WR before he arrived here . . . . . . . anyone . . . . . . ? Oh, you in the back there, sir. Yeah, gonna need to see some receipts on that.

If you NOW think JuJu is an elite WR, he is one because Mahomes made him look like one. JuJu is gonna get paid BIGTIME this off season thanks to Mahomes. The same guy that got Albert Wilson paid (for one game), the guy that got 4th option Byron freaking Pringle a decent WR contract, the guy that helped Reek land the largest WR contract in NFL history.

Mahomes is Mahomes. If you have a Mahomes, you take advantage of that fact. One of the ways you do that is by signing one year deals year to year for guys with talent who are looking to get PAID. Rinse, repeat.

What you DON’T do is hand out ridiculous $20-$25 million per year contracts to 2nd tier WR’s who are made to look like 1st tier WR’s by that same QB.

That’s just ****ing stupid.

Warner has only had 1 really elite year and he hasn't made the TFL like Bolton has. Leonard is a beast, but then you have Foyesade Oluokun making $15 mil/yr, Zach Cunningham makes $14.5 mil/yr, and Deion Jones makes $14.25 mil/yr.

If you don't think Bolton isn't getting $17 mil/yr, then what do you think he will get?

I agree with most of this. I'd like to see both Juju and MVS's performance numbers at the end of the year before we make any moves there. Brown isn't performing much more than an average LT, so he can take his ego and go **** himself. Ride the Greyhound with Titty Meat.

I don't see doing a max restructure as the way be a perennial power, that's something a desperate team does. What happens when the wheels fall off your stud WR, your top CB suddenly retires, etc., etc.? You may need a restructure at some point 3-4 years down the road and if you've shot your wad in '23, you're screwed.

No way in hell should we go $24 mil/yr for Juju. I'd do up to like $18 or so, but Tyreek is basically on a $24 mil/yr contract in Miami. It's essentially a 4 yr $95 mil contract because that last year he has a $50 mil cap hit and only $5 mil in dead cap.

Well I pointed out a few times he had a 1400 yard season before he had injuries and then had the carcass of big Ben throwing to him. However by preseason I was on the WR by committee camp.

Hill is a future HoF if maybe not for off field image. And Sammy was actually pretty good when healthy. I've been mildly disappointed that Mahomes hasn't really made any other WR look that impressive in past years. Were they that bad?

KC doesn't have to keep JuJu, but it would be nice to have some proven continuity given that it isn't an easy offense to learn.

Please tell me that’s a typo.

No way in hell do you pay a #2 WR 24m aav. Juju is a good WR, don’t get me wrong…but he’s far from Davante Adams or other WR in that pay bracket.

I’d be perfect with giving Juju a 3 year extension for around 45m total with half fully guaranteed, but past that is probably better to pass and let him get that deal in FA so we max a comp pick.

Would be nice to lose Bienemy to a HC spot to get another 3rd rounder in this next draft and the one after that.

If JJSS plays for the rest of the year like the SF game then I'd happily pay what you're suggesting, he'd be worth it. Until that point I was in the "let him walk" camp but if something has clicked and they've worked out his usage, cool, $14-15m a year is fine. I just don't think he's a guy worth more outside of a team with Mahomes.

I'd have been tempted to ditch MVS like Chris to free up some of that money. But I can see he is a different piece of the puzzle and prioritising JJSS and letting MVS go probably leaves you with more guys doing the same things in the same areas of the field. I don't particularly rate MVS but I can see value I guess, just about.

If it came down to Bolton or Gay we obviously prioritise Bolton. I like both but he's waaaay more important than Gay, it isn't as hard as it used to be finding big, fast guys at LB. It IS hard finding smart LBs who can process quickly. If Bolton wants Warner money it might be a problem, because he aint Warner. But Milano type money, maybe a little more, absolutely. I like Gay but I think we can do without him/find a replacement.

I'd probably extend Sneed now, Creed and Smith - I know we're good at churning through IOL and CBs but I'd keep some stability. If it comes down to it Smith obviously goes. I'd prioritise keeping Creed on number 1 centre money over keeping Smith on a decent wedge.

If we don't have to pay corners, and we let OBJ walk, grab Nijman for a middle of the road LT deal ( saving a bunch of money, you have flexibility to keep Gay and Sneed, and either trade up for a DE or possibly sign one.

Varch isnt gonna pay everybody on the OL even though they may deserve it..some will walk

Don't have to worry about it for a couple of years other than OBJ.

Just about the time that Thuney's cap number comes down.

They went with the WR by committee and didn't pay Tyreek, no way you blow that up and pay JJSS 24 million dollars per year.

Look for the next JJSS

They'll pay OBJ. Andy likes the continuity on the OL, they'll do that. Hell, I might even go one step farther and pay Conklin to play RT for a 2/3 year deal. That's a ton invested up front, but whatever.

They're gonna have to find a DE somewhere, be it FA or the draft.

I think JuJu joins us on a contract similar to 3 yrs @ $15m, $17m, & $19m. Not premium Tyreek Hill WR money, he's not our #1 pass catcher, but if he performs he gets paid well.

We don't let perfect get in the way of good and we sign OBJ long term, IMO he'll get something like the 3rd-4th best LT contract in the league to protect Mahomes. Pay Creed too.

There are no FA's next year that scream Chiefs addition to me at DL or WR, wouldn't mind adding WR OBJ on a 1.5 year deal now. If we want to make a splashy signing in the offseason, I'd pursue Saquan Barkley or a trade for Kamara. RBs aren't as expensive as OL, DL, or WR.

Pretty sure that's like $60-$80m in spending including draft picks lol, go for it Veach!

kelce
+
OBJ - 1.5 yr
JuJu - 3 yr
Toney
Moore
Ross
+
Saquan Barkley - 3 yr

Use our premium picks on defense again, and a quality RT.

We have the youngest secondary in the league, and they're pretty damn good and only going to get better. Our LB core is excellent. Add a fast pass rushing DE and a mean DL to play next to Jones, and we're pretty much set.

Creed is a generational talent at center. You pay him without even hesitating. He can anchor this line for the next 12 years. His build is the type that will only get stronger and bowling balls like him rarely get injured.

Freaking love that dude.

We traded Hill because he wanted $25 million avg on his contract but lets pay JuJu basically the same amount.:hmmm:

Continuity means shit if a guy takes half a season to get up to speed every year. Paying OBJ will be to their own detriment.

OBJ is just keeping himself fresh for the SB and taking things slow early in the season. 200 IQ.

Same with Eric Fisher so when we sign him and move OBJ to RT there is no stopping us.

I skimmed some of the thread.

24m for Juju? Are you ****ing crazy? Chiefs likely aren't gonna invest that heavily into 1 WR, but if they do it damn sure won't be him for that.

The guy worrying so much about guys like Creed and Bolton and Trey, I mean I get it, but they're another full season from being eligible. A lot can change in that time. Yeah you have to keep it in mind and can't out infinite huge money deals before them, but you also don't need to be a pussy as if our whole cap will be determined by then. By the time that's relevant, Clark will be off the books, maybe OBJ, Thuney gets some years tacked on. Any deals for guys like Sneed will be in the low $ early years of the deal.

Cap will go up as well. We'll be just fine. Veach will pay the right guys we need to keep and still be aggressive in UFA/trades as he always is. We're not the Rams who are so clearly locked in on being a tire fire in 3-4 years. And we're not the Packers who sit around doing nothing. We're in a great spot.

It's gonna be nice having 60 million in cap space, but that doens't go as far as it used to and we have a lot of guys here.

Being a GM is rough, you first have to decide which players you want, then see if they'll sign extensions, then go back and sign players you didn't want as much or increase the cap you'll sign the other players for, meanwhile you have to balance how good this year's draft is in the positions you'll be signing.

It's no wonder so many GMs in the league are terrible.

If they could get Creed and or Smith done early, might save some I guess, but in reality, I don't think I'd wanna pay Smith much if they're gonna keep Thuney around. You can't pay everyone and RG seems like a spot you could draft and plug and play.

Tyreek’s contract is $30 million average LMAO

No problem paying Juju $20-24 million especially when the WR is cheap.

Tyreek Hill was just as much about the draft compensation as anything.

Juju is not worth that kind of scratch. No.

It's actually $23.75M average with a balloon year that he'll never play on.


So unless that Juju contract is a $12-14mil a year deal with a $60mil balloon year at the end to inflate the AAV, I have no idea why the hell you're talking about 24mil.

No, it's not.

https://overthecap.com/salary-cap/miami-dolphins

Cap #'s for Hill:

This year: $6.5 mil.
2023: 31.2 mil.
2024: 24.8 mil.
2025: 28 mil.
2026: 51 mil. (big # he'll never see)

It's essentially a 4 year deal averaging 22.6 mil. per year in cap hits. You think the Chiefs are going to be willing to pay JuJu what they wouldn't pay Hill? Yeah, that's not happening.

But I do agree with you regarding the draft compensation being part of the reason they made that trade.

JuJu is replaceable. Don't break the bank for him. Find the next guy with talent looking to sign a one year 'prove it' deal and get paid afterwards. Rinse, repeat. This is the new Mahomes era.

I'm gonna have to really sit back and re-evaluate my cap math over the coming years.

Because shit's about to get weird. I read an article today talking about Devin White possibly getting $22 million/yr like it was just an afterthought - an off-ball backer.

The cap expansion is gonna start creating numbers that look awfully insane to us.

Instead I think we have to kinda think "okay, how many 'top of the market' guys can we have?"

So if you figure on Thuney being gone, that creates an 'opening' for Creed. Is that where you want to allocate it? Hard to say, but it's an open question. The thing with Creed is that he's damn smart and a true set and forget player.

Yeah, we've had success replacing our Cs, but remember that we TRIED to extend Hudson in-season andcouldn't get over the hump with him. We walked from Morse because of the concussions, IMO. I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that we aren't interested in bringing a guy back who could have a Jason Kelce kind of career here in KC.

I think you probably get one or the other, likely not both.

I feel like they'd prefer push more of that money towards their own guys if they can. I think they'll try awfully hard to extend Sneed, for instance. I could see them approaching Gay with an offer as well.

And I'd like to keep some rollover in place for Bolton and Humphrey when they're extension eligible the following season.

We're better served trying to keep this foundation intact than go hard after 2nd contract guys (or 3rd, in some cases).

Maintain the core and supplement with 2nd wave FAs.

Some of you guys are overvaluing the worth of some of the players...

Bolton is probably a 13 mill per year average player, he does not have the freakish athletic traits and cover ability all the ones that got paid do.

Willie Gay is probably 8 mill per year average because he has freaky athletic traits but lacks the production.

Creed Humphrey, I do believe he will get paid top 3 center money.

Trey Smith, I don't see him breaking the bank either he'll make solid guard money but he isn't gonna get Thuney money.

The issue is JuJu and Hardman are hitting FA in a terrible WR FA year so they're value is gonna be pushed up.

I do believe JuJu could come very close to getting 20 mill per year if he's willing to go play for like the Bears. And no he's not a 1, he's a really really good complimentary piece.

I know you guys won't like it, but they're gonna have to branch out somewhat either via trade or trade up or get lucky in teh draft and find a LT or DE core type guy.

I think you have to pay Creed. Then just draft G's as you have to. Sneed probably has to stay IMO, but I'm just not sure their feelings on CB"s.

The real issue I see with this team moving forward is if you tell yourself you aren't paying Orlando Brown top 5 LT money, that's gonna be a problem cause he won't move on his demand.

If you go into an offseason needing an LT and a DE that is pretty much impossible to pull off picking at the bottom of the round.

You can let a lot of your rookie contract guys walk. Maybe even most of them.

But you can't let ALL of them go. You have to reward a handful of them, if for no other reason to dangle a carrot for your other rookie contract players. They have to believe they're playing for something and it isn't just to get a contract somewhere else.

You can't preach 'football family' and things of that nature if all you do is pump and dump guys.

Creed, because of his relationship with the city and the report he's seemingly developed with Mahomes, seems like an absolute no-brainer there. Sneed, because of how he's developed in this system and his importance to it, seems like another.

Are you naive enough to think Tyreek’s contract is the only contract built that way? You realize the vast majority of contracts are right? Well unless you’re Brown Jr and object to it.

Here’s his APY per over the cap.

Yeah, it's hard.

But Sam Williams and Abraham Lucas were right there for the taking. It can be done.

The Sneed problem is corners get paid, if you throw 20+ per average on a CB we gotta cut cost somewhere else because that is a position the Chiefs have avoided paying.

Once again, because overthecap is including the balloon year.

Let's simply this. Not including a balloon year, how much do you think Juju should get.

For his worth or for what he's competing with?

His value is going to be elevated because there are very few good FA WR's after this year, he's arguably the best one.

I think you can only fix the tackle situation by drafting it.

Contracts are coming for Tre and Creed. We're already paying Thuney and can't get out of it for a couple more years, and the team probably wants to pay Orlando Brown a ton.

You can't pay all five positions, while also paying Mahomes, and field a competitive team everywhere else. That's what Darian Kinnard was an attempt at, but Kinnard's probably an interior lineman.

The great news is that we have 11 draft picks, and we have cap space to do anything we want going forward, but ultimately the bill comes due.

They're going to have to fix RT in the draft or keep riding maybe-guys like Lucas Niang.

What he's saying is that ALL contracts (pretty much) have balloon years at the end.

Therefore it doesn't matter if you look at actual AAV or include the ballon years instead. Because it's not about absolute dollar value, it's about cost relative to other players at his position.

APY is irrelevant.

'Practical Guarantees' are all that's really important. Hill's practical guarantees are $72 million over the next 3 seasons. And it's extremely likely he ends up at $95 million over 4, though not a given.

If it's your position that a JJSS or OBJ contract would be similarly inflated at the back end so we should adjust our expectations accordingly - okay; doesn't bother me much.

It just doesn't seem to be a conversation worth having unless/until terms are agreed upon and we start to see what they truly are.

Until then, I think most people speak to contracts in terms of their practical guarantees rather than their overall APY.

The Bills and Chargers can get creative, but the bill is coming due.

At best, they may be able to do what we did this season and keep treading water.

Unless they crush their drafts, they simply can't improve much. They're going to take steps back.

The Chiefs are not only the best team heading into the offseason, but they have the most resources of the great teams to do anything they want.

It's a fantastic position to be in.

This is a projection on my part but I think at the beginning of the season he wasn’t on the same page but now he is. He’s currently on pace for 1,200 yards.

I think that’s going up. Wouldn’t surprise me if he gets around 1,500 yards by seasons end.

He’s a very good weapon for us