Random rule change thought
 

What would my fellow fans of my favorite team, the Kansas City Chiefs, think about a rule change where NY would be required to review any "picking up" of a flag. Obviously they saw something to begin with - think it would be a good idea to require higher level review?

Just thinking....

*edit* for personal fouls only

It won't matter they'll never go against their refs. Look at the pass interference reviews

The game probably can’t take the weight of many more slowdowns… as BS as the call was today.

Only when they do it for tom brady, because that's the only time that I view it as suspect.

It doesn't happen often that they pick up a flag - in fact 2 in one game seems rather strange...they picked up the RTP one too

Or put it under review?

Don't know if that would help because it can sometimes be a subjective call

They need to make penalties part of the challenge flag. Maybe add one more challenge a game.

I don't mind it... on that Mahomes "roughing" flag, he was shoved a bit after the throw. I'm sure given the pressure of throwing such flags, one ref threw it and another vetoed it. And the veto was the right call.

I don't mind them discussing as a group and reversing calls and would much rather it happen quickly on the field than a booth replay.

I don't remember what the first one was or if it should have been a flag.

Juju

The first one was a helmet-helmet call that took Juju out for the game and yes it should have been a flag

The JJSS helmet to helmet hit (also defenseless). Not so much bothered by the "picking up" of the flag on the RTP but the JJSS one was just un-called for.

Maybe only review on personal fouls...that would keep it to a minimum while adding and extra layer of protection for the players on dangerous plays

Christ, no. Let's not make the game even slower by adding occasions where they could sit there with their thumbs up their asses looking at video, so they can get the call even more wrong than they already do.

Oh right, duh.... that one is tough because there was helmet-to-helmet contact, but I don't think the defender did anything in terms of targeting. The defender took a step or two forward and then braced for impact.

I think it was dumb that dude launched himself a couple plays later and well, that's fine.

I think the 2nd one had clear intent to destroy the receiver while the first one was just a hard collision that happens sometimes.

I mean personal fouls are pretty evident - a late hit, a helmet to helmet hit etc....I don't think holding or offsides or false start rise to that level. Then it wouldn't add much to something that is already rare (meaning picking up flags on personal fouls)

Seems people forget this - he was defenseless

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules...seless-player/

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kVhXvVDYV2w" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I wait all week for 3 hours on a Sunday... if they make it 4 hours, I don't give a shit. Just get it right!

So what are you trying to say here: that any contact in that situation should draw a flag? Are we not playing professional football out there? In slo-mo replay, there's not that much to suggest the guy was trying to injure juju. It looked a lot more like it was incidental. He didn't launch himself, he didn't drive his helmet at JuJu, or a forearm.

At the end of the day, it's still football and football is a violent contact sport. Shit happens sometimes.

Yeah, I just don't know how you really avoid that collision, besides giving up on the play... the guy took a step or two and it was just as much JJSS "running into him" than it was destroying a defenseless receiver.

Avoiding a hit like that, IMO, is basically telling the defender to stop playing football and don't even react to the pass.

Unlike the one a couple plays later where dude launched himself at the receiver.

It's letter of the law vs spirit of the law, IMO.... letter of the law says the JJSS hit was a penalty and the other one wasn't, yet I have no idea what I'd tell the defender on the first one. Uh, don't get in the way? On the second one, it's hey numbnuts, you're going to kill someone.

There is no intent required in the rule. Doesn't matter what he was trying to do that's what he did. I'm actually pretty amazed at how many people here will defend what he did when the list of people in the Chiefs organization that feel it was unnecessary includes Big Reg himself. He was about as close to the line as he could get with his displeasure of the "pick up"

Then I guess the Jones sack was a good call then....

that collision was shoulder to shoulder then helmet to helmet. The rule states "forcibly hitting the defenseless player’s head or neck area with the helmet, facemask, forearm, or shoulder, even if the initial contact is lower than the player’s neck"

Period end of discussion it was a 15 yard penalty

And watching it from this angle... I dunno, shit happens so much faster than seeing it at the right angle afterwards in slomo. Yeah, he could have gone low or I guess tried to make an arm tackle. He definitely took at least a few steps to get right into his path, so I'd change what I said a little in terms of "there's nothing the defender could do".

It's just neutering the defense though if you can't come up and make that play, and the guy did clearly brace for impact as opposed to head-hunt. :shrug:

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> WR JuJu Smith-Schuster knocked out of the game due to a scary hit by a <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Jaguars?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Jaguars</a> defender. Hope he&#39;s okay. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ChiefsKingdom?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ChiefsKingdom</a> <a href="https://t.co/uDPi4jGwi9">pic.twitter.com/uDPi4jGwi9</a></p>&mdash; Devon Clements (@DevclemNFL) <a href="https://twitter.com/DevclemNFL/status/1591872802118053888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 13, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

More regulation isn't going to make for a better game. It's going to make for more flags, more wasted time, and most importantly it's going to make the game more unwatchable.

Not all that long ago we'd all be shocked that a flag would be thrown in that case. I mean seriously, what the hell is the defender supposed to do, just step out of the way to avoid colliding with the 'defenseless' receiver?

It's football. Players collide violently on crossing routes.

Nah, that was exactly my point on the 'letter of the law' versus spirit of the rule... the NFL even defended that one by saying "full body weight" and so forth when it was clearly just a guy making a sack.

This. The defender actually just stops and leans his head away from JuJu. I mean, what else can he do? Just say, "Ole!" and let him run by? Do we have to keep putting skirts on these players, or can we just play football?

What is unwatchable is when players careers are shortened for unnecessary hits. The flag was already thrown - all I'm advocating for is a requirement to actually video review a personal foul penalty. How is getting it right a problem?

HE DIDN'T FORCIBLY HIT JUJU, DIPTSTICK. HE LITERALLY RAN TO AN AREA IN FRONT OF JUJU AND STOPPED, TURNING HIS HEAD AWAY FROM JUJU.

IF THE RULE SAYS "FORCIBLY," THEN THAT PLAY DOESN'T MEET THE MINIMUM CRITERIA. IT'S ACTUALLY SAFER TO SAY THAT JUJU FORCIBLY HIT THE DEFENDER.

you can't argue for both. The spirit of the rule on defenseless receivers was to prevent concussions as they shorten careers dramatically. He could have gone low...

Put the drink down and walk away from the keyboard....you're drunk

If the NFL ejected players more often for dirty hits, I definitely wouldn't be opposed to taking it to NY (if they don't already)... just for picking up a flag, not so much.

No, I'm fine. you're just incapable of seeing reality. i'll throw you a bone. Maybe you're just near-sighted. Get some glasses.

Right...in all my years of being a LEO I think I kinda have an inside track on how to enforce rule/law. My eyes saw a flagrant penalty - I'm starting to wonder if you are just trolling or truly hold this position...

Not sure I understand "both"... I already said JJSS might be a flag by the letter of the law, but shouldn't be called. I also explained how the NFL tried to defend the letter of the law on the Frank sack, but that also shouldn't have been called.

All I'm saying is if a player breaks a rule, you should be able to point to something and say "don't do this next time".... and I just don't see what you tell that defender, besides "make a split second decision to go low next time", I guess. Just like Frank did nothing wrong on the sack; you can't tell him "don't tackle a QB".

And unlike that other hit, which was far more reckless than either of those plays, yet somehow isn't a penalty.

did you watch the clip above? Who runs into who? Who forcibly crashes into the guy that's literally standing there with both feet flat on the ground? With his head turned away and his hands down around his waist?

Thank you for your service, btw. Doesn't change the fact that you're wrong on this play. But i'd buy you a drink if i ever met you anyway.

don't make helmet to helmet contact maybe?

I'll take you up on that. :) I'll make a small wager with you that the league fines and/or suspends him for that hit.

I guess, but JJSS also ducks his head into the dude's helmet and I think it's pretty clear on the replay that the defender wasn't targeting helmet to helmet contact.

And going low in that situation could have been bad for JJSS as well, since at that angle and speed you're risking taking him out at the knees.

https://www.linkpicture.com/q/Screen...6.26.11-PM.png

https://www.linkpicture.com/q/Screen...6.26.39-PM.png

See the screen shots - he sure as hell didn't make any attempt to not hit him with his helmet. Stayed in the same position from frame to frame

Yeah, that's what we've been saying for the past hour... he stands there and braces for impact, as opposed to going all in to destroy JJSS.

The alternatives are to go low and take him out at the knees, make some half-assed arm tackle, or let him run by... and I don't blame him for taking a few steps forward and taking on that collision.

I'm all for taking out the dangerous bullshit that players do, but that play is just football. It's fast and sometimes violent.

I guess if the object was to have a helmet to helmet collision then he was totally in the right. Idk how you can say he stood there "bracing" for impact when he travelled from the 44 to the 46 yard line....

LOL, seems like you're just trying to be argumentative at this point, since you're the one who just said he stayed in position frame to frame.

he stayed in vertical position not lateral....sorry I thought that was apparent in the picture...also "a step or two" to travel 3 yards would mean he needed to be about 8 feet tall...

Jesus dude, I covered that in the 3rd quote, "definitely took at least a few steps... I'd change what I said a little in terms of "there's nothing the defender could do"".

You don't have to change your mind and I don't go into debating expecting to do so, but at least acknowledge what people are typing (or quoting multiple times), especially when they're re-reviewing plays and giving some benefit of the doubt to your opinion.

After a while you just come off like a troll who's hellbent on frustrating people in circular arguments, yet I'm again giving the benefit of the doubt that it's not your intention. It's how you end up with all caps responses and being called a dipstick.

I kinda feel that same way about you TBH. Seriously read the rule and tell me he didn’t violate that the part about making helmet to helmet contact regardless of where the original contact was made (shoulder). The receiver is presumed defenseless.

I’ll make a wager with you that the league disagrees with you and issues a fine and/or suspension. Put your money where your mouth is.

We already discussed this.... should I just copy and paste everything I've already said so you can ignore it again? Are you Direcshun in another life? Because I've already marked him off as 'no point to engage'.

I'll "tap out" now, because you're clearly either being dense on purpose or completely glossing over everything said here. Have a good evening.

I thought the 2nd one to MVS was worse than the JuJu one. The result was just worse.

I didn’t get a good look at the MVS

I love this team:


<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A few reactions to JuJu Smith-Schuster being knocked out the game.<br><br>Justin Reid: &quot;We were pissed.&quot;<br>MVS: &quot;Are they really protecting us?&quot;<br>Isiah Pacheco: &quot;It brought tears to my eyes.<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Chiefs?src=hash&amp;ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Chiefs</a> <a href="https://t.co/DvN8VFvx9j">pic.twitter.com/DvN8VFvx9j</a></p>&mdash; PJ Green (@PJGreenTV) <a href="https://twitter.com/PJGreenTV/status/1591915259958378499?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 13, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Thank you. Reid, Reid, Mahomes, Pacheco, MVS, and Toney all said it was an illegal hit.

it sure looked like a dirty hit. 30 years ago it was great defense but now they say they want to protect players and then they pick up the flag and it would be a penalty for just about anyone else.

Juju sure as hell didn't run into him. The defender had plenty of time to adjust his body and hit him low and wrap up. Instead he stayed high and went helmet to helmet on a defenseless receiver.

I saw Chris Jones get a penalty that allowed the Colts to keep the ball cuz he said something mean to a QB. If we're protecting QBs feelings, then we should protect everyone's brain.

Both were penalties plain and simple by the letter of the law. Of course The Chiefs never get these calls so both flags were picked up.

Missed this - both meaning the spirit vs the letter. Either holding is holding and helmet to helmet collisions is a personal foul or it isn’t. Once you start making it more subjective than it already is you have lost the meaning of the penalty. I mean is a false start anytime an offensive player that is set makes a motion towards the line or only when it draws the defense in “the spirit” of the rule. Holding only when it effects a play or anytime a player is prevented from disengaging from a block? See how that can screw things up fast?

Penalties/rules are designed to be objective. A certain conduct is prohibited regardless of intent. Most face masks now days are accidental but are 15 yard penalties regardless. Remember when there were 2 different varieties of face mask? 5 yards and 15 yards? Seems like the league decided even accidentally grabbing a face mask was a personal foul. Same here, hitting helmet to helmet as a defender tackling a defenseless receiver, even though that wasn’t his intent (debatable) is still an infraction.

I guess…. I just don’t understand your point then. Literally all I was arguing about was having a video review of picked up flags on personal fouls. That kind of devolved into “dunno what he (the defender) was supposed to do” and “the spirit” of the rule wasn’t to punish ever helmet to helmet hit. So I’m not sure where you are going if we agree that

1. The letter of the rule was violated
2. The refs messed up by not enforcing the letter of the rule

Also - I post from my phone on the go sometimes so I don’t always get to respond to every point. I thought I was being clear and I apologize if you feel like I wasn’t addressing your points. Have a good evening.

Cisco was trying to put those hits on and celebrated and posed like he was trying to do it.

Shoulder pads to WR helmet when the WR has the ball not long enough to be a completion is a penalty.

The officials pow wow was that the shoulder pads did not hit the WR helmet.

Considering that WR was showing the fencing response is a pretty good sign that there was contact to the head.

I suppose a concussion is possible from rapid deceleration on a shoulder to shoulder hit or from head hitting ground, but unlikely you get a KO unless hit to head and replay showed a hit to the head. How that group of officials pow-wowed and then figured no head contact is plain stupid.

We don’t want more flags people. Did we forget how unwatchable the nfl was when they averaged 15+ flags a game? Hell even just a couple years ago when they emphasized OL holding? Every other play had laundry.

Where do you get "more" flags from? This is a simple video review of a flag already thrown that is being proposed to be picked up. It literally is a very small amount of interruption to "game flow". Personal foul flags are fairly rare and it is even more rare to pick one up - why not make sure that picking it up is the right call?

In order to know if a rule change is needed, we need an example of a time when it could have prevented shots of Sad Josh Allen from tugging on the heartstrings of casuals

I watched some college football on Saturday night. I'm not a big college guy, but it was very refreshing to see a game not ruled by flags. They let the corners and WRs fight. I don't think I saw one holding call on offense OR defense. Also, somehow, these college kids know how to not false start and not jump offsides, but they become pros and somehow forget...

Maybe the competition level increases dramatically, and they try and get that little bit more of an edge by "timing" the snap.

LMAO

Just an interesting tid bit the link below is a video of the Week 8 hit the league levied a fine against Minnesota Safety Harrison Smith for a Helmet to Helmet hit - looks very similar to the Juju hit - also no Week 10 fines have been posted yet. Would be the first week all season no one was fined if it stands....


https://vikingswire.usatoday.com/202...andre-hopkins/


https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/fines-suspensions/#

WTF is wrong with you guys? You are the only football fans I know that want less hitting. I want to see DBs emulate Jack Tatum, Ronnie Lott, Chuck Cecil and Brian Dawkins. Guys like James Harrison and Ray Lewis have to just shake their head when they see theses WRs go over the middle completely unpunished.

Exactly !! For all we know the NFL front office probably buzzed in and TOLD them to pick it up knowing how the NFL FO treats the Chiefs.:rolleyes:

Just posted - Andre Cisco Fined $6,620 for hit in a defenseless player.